The Game Awards 2020 - live coverage - Sephiroth joins Smash, new Perfect Dark

pedro702 · Dec 11, 2020

ut2k4master said:
thats mostly a religious issue. so religion seems to be political after all according to you

having the same rights in law as regular hereosexual couples is not a religious thing

giving equal rights to every couple being it same sex or not is a political topic because it involves laws and rights or citizens

Considering it right or wrong is a religious thing because its an ambiguous.

topics that affects the rights of individuals are political topics, believing it is correct or not is a religious topic of your own believes, it wont affects their rights in any way just your tough on them.

Julie_Pilgrim · Dec 11, 2020

VartioArtel said:
I said I did not play the game and went based on the info I saw on Vice and the Fandom, and what gameplay I HAVE seen (which consists of very little of the start, and the hind end of the game).

Don't act condescending when neither the Fandom ( https://i.imgur.com/osZFFtA.png ) nor the Vice article ( https://i.imgur.com/T2Pwcab.png ) mention her being lesbian. I am going off what little I knew, a lot of what I've heard, and what absurdly few clues I was able to see.

As I mentioned that I have little/no experience of the game ( https://i.imgur.com/rxldBo9.png ) , it's amazing you had to go and act like such facts are in plain sight for everyone to see. And as I opened up: "Here's everything I understand:" - implying I was going off all the scenes I have seen (which really account only to what I've written about in my earlier post) and a vice article (and wiki/fandom).

And one last thing:

"And well, there's no need for heterosexual couples in the game. I mean, just as there's no need for homosexual couples in every game. Both are normal out there as they are, so..."

Inclusivity. If you're going to praise your game as inclusive, and include a homosexual/bisexual character, a transsexual, etc, then in all non-biased sincerity you should be including at least one major heterosexual coupling to also be 'inclusive'. The street should not, objectively, be one way that inclusivity should include LGBTQ+ but exclude Hetero.

The fact they have to make a focus on their relationships at all when ultimately these relationships are, using your own words, 'not needed'. What does Abby's sexual choice truly matter to the story? None. Ellie's? Little as she's the main character and people have a subconscious desire to know where the main character's life may lead down the line. But even this ends up a dead end meant to ultimately disappoint the players more as that relationship's ultimately torn from her to again elevate this somewhat implied background narrative Ellie must be punished for everything for wanting Revenge, yet Abby obtains all she ever really wants for hers.

You also said it yourself to back up my point: "I mean yeah she could be bi, but not that it makes any change in the actual story..." - if a character's sexuality ultimately doesn't matter to the story, why does it need to overtly focused on at all? A small bit of flirting, no need for a full blown kiss. Why was that needed?

I use Angelica Rogner from Trails of Cold Steel as a perfect example of an overt lesbian done right. Her being lesbian is a huge part of her character. She not once feels out of place as a lesbian, despite how hamfistedly lesbian she, hugging nearly every 'cute' female in sight (except the other physically muscular female in the main cast in Cold Steel 1, still need to go through CS2-4) is because while it's faithful to her sexuality, it also overtly is played for laughs to help tell a story and tell us who she is.

So what does being Lesbian give Abby? Nothing. It doesn't add anything to her character except checking off an inclusivity checkbox, as you've so properly noted. It doesn't define her as a person, it just defines her sexual preferences. If being a heterosexual isn't necessary, neither is having one's sexuality stated at all.

Ultimately your post does help bring up a point why people view the game as SJW/Woke. Because almost every character relationship except for father-daughter types in this game can literally be described with "because it is inclusive" (Abby kissing a female as you state, plus her sex scene, implies bisexuality, and Ellie is clearly lesbian), and "they could be relationship swapped and it wouldn't make any change in the actual story". So thanks for at least helping me work that out!

Does being heterosexual ever add anything to someone’s character?

VartioArtel · Dec 11, 2020

Scott_pilgrim said:
Does being heterosexual ever add anything to someone’s character?

Depends on the story being told. A story of generations of family. Abby wouldn't exist if her parents weren't heterosexual.

Until technology progresses enough, same-gender childbirth (edit: without sperm donors, which is still ultimately a male on female conception) is an impossibility and cannot progress the story of continuing generations. Hell, last I checked they only recently were able to somehow get mice to result in a male-male mice pairings, and even then it's a difficult process that involves genetic tinkering of the sperm/egg cells to act like the other to even bond (basically put: you still need a sperm cell to 'think' it's an egg cell? I'm not entirely comprehending the concept - see: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...n-breeding-mice-single-sex-parents-180970517/ ).

A heterosexual story in a modern/realistic setting without say magical or religious conceptions requires, for the sake of such storytelling, to require a male and a female in some method. Yes, you could 'donate' sperm cells, but that would be between the mother and the sperm donor to conceive the next generation. The non-conceiving mother would not have the genes offered to the child, only the ability to guide the child through teaching. A symbolic process that might as well equate to adoption, in a fashion.

---------------

Also, you have the priorities mixed: less than 1/25 people according to surveys (4%) identify as LGB ( https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/how-many-people-lgbt/ ). This puts, including the rest of the LGBTQ+ group, probably 90% of the human population at heterosexual. It doesn't need to be 'added' to a character because it is the physio-psychological norm ingrained into the standard human mentality and genome and thus can be inferred that 24/25 characters we'd run into would probably be a heterosexual anyhow. It doesn't 'add' anything, because it is the 'norm'. It is not needed to make an effort to claim someone is X, unless that X is a minority or of a contentious or seperate viewpoint of one's own.

Case in point. Christianity. Nobody mentions someone's a Christian unless it becomes a point of contention. It doesn't do to saying being 'Christian' adds to any character, and we presume, as it's the major religion in the world (31% of people, with Islam being 2nd at 24%) most people believe in it in some way shape or form. We only mention/point out characters in stories when either A: their religion is a point worthy of attention; B: we see them in the process of being a Christian; or C: it's a point of contention.

Well. A character being Christian wouldn't come up and be focused on in detail in a story because they're presumed Christian due to the majority rule system, unless that character is of course living in a place where the religion is a point of Contention (C). IE: Say a character is a Christian living in a non-Christian area - where they exist as a point to contest the religions of others in that area.

Case in point, let's bring this back to homosexuality. Let's use these same key points.

Now, let's rework those 3 things.

Sexuality is shown in 3 ways:
A: Them being their sexuality is a point worthy of attention (IE: them being homosexual will progress a plot point, such as say a clear sign of male-on-male sexual violence in a murder).

B: Them in the process of being their sexuality. (IE: Kissing or Flirting with another of the same sexuality).

C: Them being their sexuality is a point of contention (IE: "This person's homosexual though").

We don't need A to be a major focus on a heterosexual character. Them being heterosexual isn't a point worthy of attention 98% of the time because it isn't a key point to the story. A majority in a situation/area is not something that needs focus on, same as someone's religion, in a story.

With B, Heterosexuals kissing is a sign of showing a romantic bond. Usually it's used as a tool to show emotional bonding.

With C, Heterosexuality is a point of content in just such an argument as this, or to claim one is sexist against homosexuals because of one's heterosexuality.

Ergo, at most we see in stories B.

-----------------

In the case of TLOU2, they make the homosexuality stand out. Instead of simply leaving it to Ellie flirting with Dina for example, they show it evolving into a fullblown kiss VERY quickly, and leading to a relationship that ultimately implodes. This is because they use the homosexual act of kissing between females to attempt to convince us of an actual romantic attraction - one that's ultimately proven a lie by the end of the game with how Dina VERY easily abandons Ellie.

Like most cases in storytelling, kissing is either used as a way to imply a very deep romantic relationship, or a form of dominance, per se. They could have left it at Flirting, which means they were using blatant homosexual sexuality in an attempt to sell instead of tell a story. Think of the number of times you've seen characters rush to kiss in stories the day they meet unless there's an extremely strong bond, or a comedic effect going on.

As Bedel helped point out: the story wouldn't have changed much if Abby was sexually attracted to a toaster oven. Ellie however, the story would have changed as she might have been more hesitant to trust or bring along Dina if she was just some friend. Having a romantic emotional bond tends to either make one feel that bringing along a loved one either a point of strength, or a point of terror, when going to do something brash. Ellie's existence as a lesbian fits within the story, even if Dina COULD have been a male, it fits within the confines of the story they were telling.

You don't need a reason for the relationship to be heterosexual or homosexual, as long as that's the original intent (see: Lev was originally not a transgender during development and was shoehorned to be, and that IS a point of contention). What you need to do is only bring it up/show it when/if it will promote to a character's development/plot.

Big wall of character relationships for the "Kiseki"/Trails of games here.
Again, I mentioned Angelica Rogner from Trails of Cold Steel when replying to Bedel. She didn't HAVE to be homosexual. But it was a part of her character, it affected how she acted, how protective she was of certain characters on the cast, etc. It also mixed into her tomboy attitude fluidly. I can also use Olivert Riese Arnor from the same game series, who's shown to hit on men (namely his childhood friend Mueller, and Trails in the Sky secondary protagonist Joshua) although he's far more prone to flirt with women. This show of bisexuality from Olivert is used to show us his playful, energetic nature. While he's clearly a bit of a lech, and goes around from woman to woman throughout the series, we see that he ultimately is a serious man who does care, and uses his sexuality to help relieve the often serious and dark mood. His sexuality, like the aforementioned Angelica Rogner, is used as a huge part of his personality. Meanwhile barring the relationships between characters (Sky protagonist Estelle and her clear romantic infactuation with Joshua, Lloyd and Elie's Relationships in Trails of Zero/Azure, Alisa, Emma, and Laura's relationships with Rean Schwarzer in Cold Steel during romantic bonding events, Randy being a horndog although like a loyal dog to his love interest), all Romantic relationships define characters, and affect how they act and how they improve as characters.

Abby being a bisexual (lesbian? Seriously was she raped in that scene with the dude? I don't even know) does not help to define her character. It IS a point of attention, but it goes nowhere with it unlike Ellie according to all sources i've heard. It does not affect her personality, who she hangs with, what she chooses to do, etc. It's there and tacked on unlike most heterosexual relationships.

----------------

Tl;Dr: Heterosexuality has underlying implications, but doesn't 'add' to a character as 'heterosexuality' is the standard (Not the 'normal' as homosexuality itself exists in many animal species, so homosexuality is as every bit normal as heterosexuality) built into the physical, mental, emotional, and genetic structure of humans. It doesn't add an underlying principle of being 'different' from the majority and the implied pressure involve. But we see nothing from Abby's sexuality other than she is whatever she is.

EDIT: If we were to expect true 'equal representation' here, Abby's sexuality wouldn't have come up (we wouldn't have even had her sex scene, really). Because her being a homo/bisexual wouldn't have came up at all because it is of no consequence, same with MOST villains unless their relationship's a driving part of their character. Ellie's sexuality was entirely tastefully written even if the general relationship was written like a fanfiction out of a writing club in highschool.

Mama Looigi · Dec 11, 2020

People who were convinced we were getting fortnite in smash and then Metroid in fortnite must feel... interesting right now.

HL:A best VR, no surprise there.
Sephiroth... I feel like they only chose him because the FF Remake won an award

MYST VR already has great reviews and it’s only been out for a few days. I really want that theme

Phasmophobia best launch- that game didn’t let me down in any way other than the fact that my very first round, I fell out of the map

Good game but fix ya bugs

I predicted the vast majority of the games for every award >:3

donaldgx · Dec 11, 2020

Sephiroth uh. pretty iconic character for big N, not like that has mattered recently :rolleyes:

Still somewhat 'salty', if you will, that Cloud and now Sephiroth have joined smash over say Cecil, Kain, Golbez, Rydia, Rosa, Edge, Terra, Celes, Gilgamesh, Faris.

Deleted member 414991 · Dec 11, 2020

sephiroth shirtless alt hnnghh

Chary · Dec 11, 2020

donaldgx said:
Sephiroth uh. pretty iconic character for big N, not like that has mattered recently
Still somewhat 'salty', if you will, that Cloud and know Sephiroth have joined smash over say Cecil, Kain, Golbez, Rydia, Rosa, Edge, Terra, Celes, Gilgamesh, Faris.

Terra or Celes would have been 10/10, and even if afaik VIII isn't well loved, I woulda enjoyed seeing how they handled the protag's gunblade weapon, that sounds kinda neat in concept.

(Your avatar just makes me wish we got a Tales rep though...)

x65943 · Dec 11, 2020

donaldgx said:
Sephiroth uh. pretty iconic character for big N, not like that has mattered recently
Still somewhat 'salty', if you will, that Cloud and now Sephiroth have joined smash over say Cecil, Kain, Golbez, Rydia, Rosa, Edge, Terra, Celes, Gilgamesh, Faris.

No love for Kefka??

VartioArtel · Dec 12, 2020

Chary said:
Terra or Celes would have been 10/10, and even if afaik VIII isn't well loved, I woulda enjoyed seeing how they handled the protag's gunblade weapon, that sounds kinda neat in concept.

(Your avatar just makes me wish we got a Tales rep though...)

Tales would have been interesting. But are there even any Tales of on Switch? I know Abyss was on 3DS.

Chary · Dec 12, 2020

VartioArtel said:
Tales would have been interesting. But are there even any Tales of on Switch? I know Abyss was on 3DS.

It’d probably be Yuri from Vesperia—that’s the only recent Nintendo Tales game. Or maybe Lloyd, since he’s notable for the western Symphonia release on the GC.

VartioArtel · Dec 12, 2020

Chary said:
It’d probably be Yuri from Vesperia—that’s the only recent Nintendo Tales game. Or maybe Lloyd, since he’s notable for the western Symphonia release on the GC.

Vesperia was on Switch? *Clickity Click* Well damn it was. He'd be likely the pick then. If not him, then maybe they'd pull a Joker (who wasn't in any Switch game) and give us Velvet.

ov3rkill · Dec 12, 2020

donaldgx said:
Sephiroth uh. pretty iconic character for big N, not like that has mattered recently
Still somewhat 'salty', if you will, that Cloud and now Sephiroth have joined smash over say Cecil, Kain, Golbez, Rydia, Rosa, Edge, Terra, Celes, Gilgamesh, Faris.

Maybe Square is banking on that since FFVIIR part 2 will be coming just to keep the franchise relevant.

medoli900 · Dec 12, 2020

VartioArtel said:
Tales would have been interesting. But are there even any Tales of on Switch? I know Abyss was on 3DS.

A lot of them actually are on Nintendo's console, but mostly only in Japan. The series even began on the Super Famicom with Phantasia.

VartioArtel · Dec 12, 2020

medoli900 said:
A lot of them actually are on Nintendo's console, but mostly only in Japan. The series even began on the Super Famicom with Phantasia.

I meant in modern day. Every other IP bar F-Zero has been on modern consoles (or later released on a modern console), unless they came from an older smash.

Ampersound · Dec 12, 2020

Latiodile said:
yup, it's essentially everything that was promised now, if not more

Does it have proper multiplayer now? I haven't checked in ages.

Ampersound · Dec 12, 2020

lordelan said:
Another sword fighter. Yay. -.-
Just gimme Rayman already!

Rayman potentially could have a pretty diverse moveset. His limbless style is also very distinct compared to all other characters, I really hope he'll be announced.

Deleted User · Dec 12, 2020

Ampersound said:
Does it have proper multiplayer now? I haven't checked in ages.

yeah, it's had it for ages now

D34DL1N3R · Dec 12, 2020

pedro702 said:
most games are political? lol cmon whare are you smoking? what does mario or zelda have of politics? same for preety much every nintendo game i see zero politics on them tbh, are god of war politically where? same for halo or gears? or sackboy or spider man?

there are games with political intents but most of them dont have any they are simply games...

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

good vs evil is not a political topic lol now your making your political thing a complete joke, doom eternal is not political, good vs evil is not a political thing at all.~doom would be more a religion topic rather than political topic if you even want to go there becuase its basicaly demons and hell.

and religion is everything but political topic, that is why people always try to keep religion away from politics same for good vs evil, that is not a political statement you might want to call it a religious believe to deice what is good or what is evil but not a political topic.

I could easily point out political themes in Mario, Zelda, God of War, Halo, Gears, and Spider-man. Sackboy I'm not so sure about. Also... religion is anything but a political topic and people always try to keep them apart? Tell that to the Republicans. Religion absolutely can be and often is a political topic.

pedro702 · Dec 12, 2020

D34DL1N3R said:
I could easily point out political themes in Mario, Zelda, God of War, Halo, Gears, and Spider-man. Sackboy I'm not so sure about. Also... religion is anything but a political topic and people always try to keep them apart? Tell that to the Republicans. Religion absolutely can be and often is a political topic.

i really want to know what is the political message of playing mario 64 or mario galaxy lol, im eager to ear what political message nintendo put into the game...

and if you tell me mario is a capitalist becuase he collects coins... just gtfo seriously.

D34DL1N3R · Dec 12, 2020

pedro702 said:
i really want to know what is the political message of playing mario 64 or mario galaxy lol, im eager to ear what political message nintendo put into the game...

and if you tell me mario is a capitalist becuase he collects coins... just gtfo seriously.

I'll give you a couple specific Mario examples of politics. 1) In the Super Mario Bros 2 manual it says regarding Birdo: "He thinks he is a girl and he spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called "Birdetta." 2) Bridal Gown and Veil costume in Mario Odyssey. Now... just gtfo seriously.

Well-Known Member

Secretly three raccoons in a trench coat

Well-Known Member

If you read this, I'm now your mother

Well-Known Member

awagga

Never sleeps

hunger games round 29 big booba winner

Well-Known Member

Never sleeps

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Open the Benzenes;Gate

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Deleted User

Guest

Nephilim

Well-Known Member

Nephilim

Similar threads

Popular threads in this forum