The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

[Iamapirate]

I'm not referring to the current situation but in a more generalised sense. I don't like lockdowns either.

 

[smf]

Doesn't have to be that far, such things might not even come to pass. Could be less harsh than what is happening now though. Or might need to be more. Is the strain too much that outcomes change enough or is it just strained (one might say something being strained is closer to optimal usage).

I'm not sure what you're saying, but southend hospital is now rationing oxygen.

Clearly relaxing lockdown in the next couple of months is not on the cards, if anything restrictions are going to be (necessarily) increased.

Because history that the end of which is barely in living memory (the decline and end of the empire varies on dates but at the very latest of any real power was 1956 (the Suez crisis, so if you were 15 at the time you would be statistically brushing up against life expectancy) and more likely was done after world war 2 (so 1945) with it being in something of a serious decline for a lot longer, indeed the move to post industrial, computer age and radically different setup then something must happen today even if the would be populace does not care for it (arguably the more important metric)?
Hard sell that one, even more so trying to bill it as hypocritical.

There are plenty of people who were alive during WW2 and thought they were reliving the fight against nazi germany when they voted to leave. There is a large number of people who weren't alive during WW2 that wanted to fight against nazi germany and voted to leave for the same reason.

MAGA/UKIP are the same kind of delusional idiots.

the uk already had control on a lot of issues and the best deal out of any member country right down to its own currency and being the financial center for the eu.

Yes, the UK threw away the best deal ever for one that will hurt fishermen & other exporters and importers because of some lies and racism.

There are 1.2 million illegal immigrants in the UK - a quarter of the entire total in Europe. Lets hope they leave the doors alone so this tiny island can cope with it's massive overpopulation problem.

The UK doesn't have a massive overpopulation problem. We could do with ditching some of the lazy UK born people though.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Anyway, Sham, Brexit is good, but too little too late.

Brexit was bought by the rich for their own gains, not ours & certainly not for all the reasons that were promised.

Tax evaders and racists are the only ones likely to benefit in some way, but racists will lose out in many others.
Billionaires can buy what they lost, it's a long term goal for them & if it turns out they were worse off then they have so much money they won't care.

 

[Doran754]

I'm not sure what you're saying, but southend hospital is now rationing oxygen.

Clearly relaxing lockdown in the next couple of months is not on the cards, if anything restrictions are going to be (necessarily) increased.



There are plenty of people who were alive during WW2 and thought they were reliving the fight against nazi germany when they voted to leave. There is a large number of people who weren't alive during WW2 that wanted to fight against nazi germany and voted to leave for the same reason.

MAGA/UKIP are the same kind of delusional idiots.



Yes, the UK threw away the best deal ever for one that will hurt fishermen & other exporters and importers because of some lies and racism.



The UK doesn't have a massive overpopulation problem. We could do with ditching some of the lazy UK born people though.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Brexit was bought by the rich for their own gains, not ours & certainly not for all the reasons that were promised.

Tax evaders and racists are the only ones likely to benefit in some way, but racists will lose out in many others.
Billionaires can buy what they lost, it's a long term goal for them & if it turns out they were worse off then they have so much money they won't care.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has a population of 63.18 million people (turns out its 67,886,011, It's gone up 4million in 4 years, crazy) in an area of 93,628 sq miles. The United States of America has a population of 331.35 million in an area of 3,805,927 sq miles.

Now It doesn't take a mathematical genius to workout the UK has 25% the population of the United States but only 2.5% of their land mass. THATS A PROBLEM. That's not even comparing the UK to a country like Australia which has like a third of our population and 3x the landmass. Just because YOU dont see it as a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've sat and watched grasslands and farmlands near me be destroyed to make way for more houses because THERES TOO MANY PEOPLE HERE. I'd like my children to be able to play football on the same grass I did growing up. Maybe you should leave and take your massive hard work to the EU, you clearly bring in so much they'd be happy to have you.

Anyway I digress , you were crying about racism and maga or some shit as usual. Do go on.

 

[smf]

Now It doesn't take a mathematical genius to workout the UK has 25% the population of the United States but only 2.5% of their land mass. THATS A PROBLEM.

Why is that a problem?

Racists have lied about the UK being overcrowded for years, it's not changed.

 

[Doran754]

Why is that a problem?

Racists have lied about the UK being overcrowded for years, it's not changed.

What's race got to do with overpopulation. I never mentioned race yet you naturally gravitate towards it. I've already demonstrated why It's a problem, because England is losing It's natural beauty, I don't want to see our greenbelt destroyed for more homes when we already have limited landmass compared to other countries. At this point I'm just going to assume you're being dumb on purpose and leave you to cry in your racist blackhole. I mean whitehole. I mean hole.

 

[smf]

What's race got to do with overpopulation. I never mentioned race yet you naturally gravitate towards it.

Because you talk about closing the borders to control population.

I've already demonstrated why It's a problem, because England is losing It's natural beauty, I don't want to see our greenbelt destroyed for more homes when we already have limited landmass compared to other countries.

Don't have children & convince the other people who think britain is too full to do the same thing, if you're that worried.

At this point I'm just going to assume you're being dumb on purpose and leave you to cry in your racist blackhole. I mean whitehole. I mean hole.

I'm not being dumb on purpose, you're being dumb by accident.

Come up with better excuses if you want to hide your prejudice.

 

[Doran754]

Because you talk about closing the borders to control population.



Don't have children & convince the other people who think britain is too full to do the same thing, if you're that worried.



I'm not being dumb on purpose, you're being dumb by accident.

Population=/race. No. If I said "Hey lets close the borders to Africa and Asia but leave it open to all the White Europeans you might have a point. However I didn't say that so population=/race isn't the same thing and you're wrong. You also know you're wrong but you're too stubborn to admit the fact that population growth on our tiny island is out of control and you can't talk about the subject like an adult instead you resort to what your hippie teacher taught you, everybody who disagrees with me must be racist.

I shouldn't have children and let them enjoy all the wonderful things my birthright of being born in this country and being a legal citizen has afforded me because you want open borders. You're insane.

 

[smf]

I shouldn't have children and let them enjoy all the wonderful things my birthright of being born in this country and being a legal citizen has afforded me because you want open borders. You're insane.

And there you go by spoiling it, birthright is racism.

You think your children have more of a claim to live here, because you were born here. Which is just accidental, you didn't choose to do it. Your parents just happened to be here.

 

[Doran754]

And there you go by spoiling it, birthright is racism.

You think your children have more of a claim to live here, because you were born here. Which is just accidental, you didn't choose to do it. Your parents just happened to be here.

'Being born is racist'

You're right in the fact It's accidental. It's a lottery and my children won the birthright lottery. Nothing racist about it, that's life. Try and make a point without race baiting and we can continue the topic.

 

[smf]

You're right in the fact It's accidental. It's a lottery and my children won the birthright lottery. Nothing racist about it, that's life. Try and make a point without race baiting and we can continue the topic.

It's not racist to be born, it's racist when you say that the country is full and the only solution is to stop foreigners coming here to protect it for your children.

But I'm sure your argument makes sense to you.

In reality we needed immigration, but facts are not as important as the feeling of stopping foreigners coming here.

 

[FAST6191]

It's not racist to be born, it's racist when you say that the country is full and the only solution is to stop foreigners coming here to protect it for your children.

I can't get to that one.

Had it been "UK for native british only (whatever that is, though I suppose without notable invasions for some centuries then you could probably standardise), kick the others out" then maybe.

A "everybody established here is good, let's go from here without adding more" is a different matter entirely.

As the original quoted parts fail to make a distinction there you are going to have a hard time justifying a classification of such.

Whether such things would lead to any good for the UK or for the countries they might be coming from* (whatever you might classify that as) is a different matter again. Can't say isolationism seems like a great plan, especially if we are not going to purge the nimby/banana set that don't want to hear the sound of a hammer (never mind smell something malodorous of the industrial flavour) but again different aspect of the discussion.

*if your best and brightest bugger off in their prime years and never return or only return to retire it does rather impact your country/area (nobody left to do the hard jobs, play entrepreneur, do nice social projects...), even more so if their kids/grandkids do not come with them (intelligence having a nice genetic component and all that).

 

[smf]

A "everybody established here is good, let's go from here without adding more" is a different matter entirely.

Not really, it tends to hide a desire to "send em back to where they came from". Which we saw a lot of after the brexit vote.

And whether they are honest enough to say it or not, Britain prospered with immigration & leaving the EU is going to be worse for everyone except racists.

 

[FAST6191]

Not really, it tends to hide a desire to "send em back to where they came from". Which we saw a lot of after the brexit vote.

And whether they are honest enough to say it or not, Britain prospered with immigration & leaving the EU is going to be worse for everyone except racists.

Would such a group likely be overrepresented in that? Sure.
Can it be assumed for the purposes of discussion in this instance? Not from where I sit.

Upsides and downsides. Can see both (there are costs*, there are perks**, there are uncertainties, what values you assign to each is variable and that is just monetarily, go a "monetary cost worth paying for a greater good" debate*** and that gets even more nebulous which is fine as it is then the basis of a discussion) and I thought that is what we were here to discuss. Shit flinging just makes a mess of everything.


*more people, more demand on housing/food/power/civil supply and services, higher costs, though higher costs is good for some (if you happen to be selling/renting/building houses or supplying food./.../). Also means greater tax base if said tax base is being tapped in a ponzi scheme that is supposed to be funding pensions and healthcare.

**good people are hard to find, if you can drag some in then so much the better (at least for you, the countries they came from might have liked to keep them and others they skipped over because yours was within pain threshold for moving might also have liked them). Whether every person that wanders over is a net boon on the other hand one can debate (the points system ostensibly being an effort to ensure those that wander over are a boon). On the other hand good people might be good but still acts as a depressive force as supply is being met -- if you are compelled to hire from within then might have to stump up more or make it more attractive in other ways (pay and conditions and all that) which is more costly for those offering the role but still a boon for those taking it that might have done something else with more favourable conditions. On the other hand there is still a "eh I won't bother", "meh let's not do it here" or "eh let's get a robot" factor and whether it is likely to reach that before reaching perks then gets to be a matter of debate.

***"by the people and for the people" and all that tends to be how most places are run. If the perks are more intangible than simple monetary or boring basic statistic (though such things that are not basic money might well be highly desirable) and apply to said people then that seems within the remit. Being a charity for the world could also be one of said intangibles, be it in general or if you think the place owes the world a debt for past actions (can't get there myself, indeed find it quite bizarre that any might think that, but it is a mindset that is out there) though.


Now I have serious reservations over this whole leaving the EU lark (being a big block with at least similar red tape certainly has its advantages over being a smaller, potentially more agile, free agent all alone in the world) and that would even be with a competent government (not that I have seen such a thing in many years). Can't dismiss there being considerable potential upsides though.

 

[smf]

Now I have serious reservations over this whole leaving the EU lark (being a big block with at least similar red tape certainly has its advantages over being a smaller, potentially more agile, free agent all alone in the world) and that would even be with a competent government (not that I have seen such a thing in many years). Can't dismiss there being considerable potential upsides though.

I've been waiting for someone to come up with real upsides since the referendum, it's all just been half truths at best. Very much like Trump supporters telling us that it's all antifa's fault.

 

[notimp]

I've been waiting for someone to come up with real upsides since the referendum, it's all just been half truths at best.

Upsides will show when preferred trading partners are developing at a faster pace than the EU, which will benefit people involved in said trade. Also, those could be slightly different industries like before. But this should take more than 10 years to surface.

In the meantime, people on lower income, might have less foreign competition to deal with (but their wages wont rise in the near and likely also not mid term). The commitments not to exploit labor markets in that sector (lets say, by an unlimited flow of people looking for work) are real.

The issue is - that all in all, automation still exists, and that for a certain time, the UK has become a less attractive place to invest in overall, at least for certain interests. (English speaking and part of the EU was a pull factor, f.e.) And all sorts of smaller new problems will arise until they are dealt with.(Elder care, .. )

 

[smf]

Upsides will show when preferred trading partners are developing at a faster pace than the EU, which will benefit people involved in said trade. But this should take more than 10 years to surface.

And all the big markets are likely to go to the EU first, with better deals as they've already been negotiating.

In the meantime, people on lower income, might have less foreign competition to deal with

Competition hasn't driven down wages, because immigration fueled growth. Getting rid of immigration won't have a positive effect, the economy is just going to contract.

The issue is - that all in all, automation still exists, and that for a certain time, the UK has become a less attractive place to invest in overall.

Yeah, "Brexiteer billionaire Jim Ratcliffe moves Grenadier production to EU".

 

[notimp]

And all the big markets are likely to go to the EU first, with better deals as they've already been negotiating.

Sure, but you dont pay the EUs 'egality taxes' anymore, so in theory you are 'more nimble' more adaptive, can exploit labor more easily, .. If you have something, that you are especially good at, and that might be in demand in a growing economy somewhere else - you can drive that full force, and without taking other partner countries interests into considerastion, to a larger extent.

Issue - I dont know what that is yet. But in certain parts of the EU its 'market leadership' in a certain (can be) small business niche, and in the past for the City of London especially it has been financial services.

If you go back to the Dominic Cummings 'institutional rectification checkup' Dominic Cummings had to go through before becoming elected into government (video is linked in a Brexit thread here), he was tested on the proposed benefits and costs of Brexit by the fiscal (?) guardians of the state - so on a higher level than just the PR level, but still with a PR slant to it (his capability to do the job was tested there), you should find some (partly ideological, but still 'true') lessons.

edit: Here - this one:

Competition hasn't driven down wages, because immigration fueled growth. Getting rid of immigration won't have a positive effect, the economy is just going to contract.

Correct, I only talked about job competition for people in the lower income sectors. (If you were qualified over the rest, even at lower income, its still bad news. And overall depending on how much growth fulled your sector in the past, it might still be bad news.)

 

[smf]

Sure, but you dont pay the EUs 'egality taxes' anymore,

No, but we don't benefit from the things that they funded either. The leave campaign don't tend to own up to all the extra costs of leaving, now that we have taken back control of all the regulatory bodies then we need to fund those for example.

It's like deciding to give up your six figure salary and going on benefits, because you don't like paying tax.

 

[notimp]

No, but we don't benefit from the things that they funded either.

It's like deciding to give up your six figure salary and going on benefits, because you don't like paying tax.

You've got the free market, sans and agreement for services - without paying too much into common projects (dont ask me the figure.. ) thats - something. (At the same time, relations with Scotland are deteriorating.. )

But if you listen to the hour long questioning session (which uppon rewatching is a whole lot of nothing), having more flexibility in regulating your services sectors is touted as one of the main benefits.

Also no one on the governments panel side believed that this would be a huge gain for the country probably following the complexities of economic developments quite thoroughly. So you go and prove them wrong.. You make your own future!

 

[smf]

You've got the free market

Not exactly, it seems the deal isn't quite what was promised. Scotland is currently unable to export fish to the EU (which includes Northern Ireland).

Other companies are being hit by tariffs because we don't make enough of it here, which is quite normal as we don't make all of practically anything.

Seed potatoes are excluded too, which were a big export.