The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by emigre, May 26, 2018.

  1. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!

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    Sep 13, 2009
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    Netherworld
    Well, even here there is a growing push for 16s to vote.
     
  2. Henx

    Henx Member

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    May 11, 2018
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    In my opinion, the problem is not so much allowing the young to vote, but allowing the elderly. Pardon me, I hope to get there someday, but why are they allowed to decide the future of the young? Isn’t it ironic that many won’t be alive to see the results of what their votes did? The ones who live with the consequences of their votes are the younger generations.

    The cut point should be after they retire, then they lose the power to vote. When they stop working, their contributions are done. Let the young decide their future. And since the impact will be on them, generally they are much more informed on their opinions, which I think leads to more thoughtful decisions.

    Obviously there is a conflict of interest for many old politicians, shareholders, etc, but that’s the fairest I can think of. The right thing to do. If the time comes, I would gadly give up my voting rights. It is not that they were vetted from voting from the beginning, which means they decided the future of the country on their time, while working and growing. Only now, the impact as I said won’t be on them.

    Steve jobs said something in an interview years ago, that stuck with me:
    "No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because death is very likely the single best invention of life. It is life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true
    ...Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life”
    It is very applicable in politics too.
     
  3. Phenj

    Phenj GBAtemp Fan

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    May 22, 2018
    Italy
    "future"
     
  4. JoeBloggs777

    JoeBloggs777 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    May 30, 2018
    United Kingdom
    what age range do you mean by elderly ? that can be from what 65 to 100+, I'm the opposite to you, the elderly have a lifetime of experience, many are parents or even grandparents. They've worked for nearly 50years .

    when many were youths they fought in WW2 to give you the freedoms you have now.

    In the case of the EU they will recall when we joined the EC in 1973 it was for trading not the EU beast we have now.

    I'll leave you with a quote 'Youth is wasted on the young'
     
  5. Henx

    Henx Member

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    May 11, 2018
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    I totally understand where you are coming from. My problem is not so much with the age per say, but as you know, when you get older you tend to not care as much, you stop learning, your habits are stuck and most of the time your opinions and beliefs don’t change, even if you are wrong.
    It is incredible superfluous to think the old generation thinks in the problems ahead as much as the young do.

    Forget voting for brexit… that's irrelevant in this instance.
    What happens is the older you are, the farther apart you are from the young peers. This means that you are not exactly voting in their interests but in yours, right? What do elderly have to loose? Their lives are set already.

    If we go with the argument that they fought in the war… well then, the generation after them invented computers, etc. Why are the old using them then? You see how quickly the old gets replaced by the new. It is a harsh reality.
    From what you are saying, the elderly are allowed to vote as a reward? Besides the young don't exactly have it easy either. Every generation have their own battles. They need to make a living after all. As years go by, it is getting more difficult to own a home for example.

    To be fair, I do not believe much in democracy. It suffers from the capistalism that our society lives in, thus imbalance is unfortunately for many always inevitable. I would be happy if they instead discussed how the voting system could be changed to make it fair to the whole. The age is a minority, but it is better than nothing.
     
    Last edited by Henx, Oct 31, 2019
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  6. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    Mar 19, 2014
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    Not care as much? Says who? Both my grandparents care deeply about the future of this country, I'll tell you who doesn't. The "Young" people who's "future was stolen" because they couldn't be arsed to get the fuck out of bed. I'm so tired of this rhetoric and quite frankly i find it disgusting to try and advocate removing the vote from the older generation. I already know you voted remain, which sums it all up. (And if you're curious, I'm 29. I also voted leave, my future wasn't stolen, In-fact I'd wager alot of money I'm probably younger than you.)

    As for 16yr olds and foreigners getting a vote in national elections, as far as im aware no other country in the world let alone the EU (not a country) lets foreigners vote in national elections. The scummy depths labour sink to never ceases to amaze me. They know they'll get slaughtered at the ballot box, can't win votes? IMPORT THEM. Even if voting rights were reciprocated in other countries - I still wouldn't want this. Call me old fashioned but I think people who are legal adults who are British in Britain should decide the future of their country.

    16yr olds voting makes sense to Labour as generally speaking, most 16yr olds are stupid. Most stupid people vote for labour so this isn't rocket science, It's just Labour being Labour - scummy as per.
     
    Last edited by shamzie, Nov 1, 2019
  7. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Sep 18, 2007
    Probably true - but also this:
    [​IMG]
    More people over 40 than under 40 and still beyond voting age in your population.

    But in other european countries its even worse.
    Here is germany, f.e.:
    [​IMG]

    Its called population pyramid, btw. because way back when it used to be a pyramid (in european countries as well.) ;)

    Looking at those distributions also makes you understand why germany took many of the migrants during the last push, for instance.

    edit: Oddly enough your birth rate figures became 'healthier' during the financial crisis. Huh.
    [​IMG]
    edit: Also at some point you see a migration bump in there I believe. :) Maybe thats the cause. :)
    (When all of a sudden your population of 30 year olds increases out of nothing. :) )
     
    Last edited by notimp, Oct 31, 2019
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  8. kumikochan

    kumikochan GBAtemp Psycho!

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    Feb 4, 2015
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    So there's a big chance Scotland will try to split from the UK and join the EU. A while ago Australia also mentioned there is a chance of them breaking up from the UK since the Brexit is not in their best interest. Wondering what the UK will do if that would come to fruition 2 major countries breaking up from them. Australia will probably not happen tho since they mostly said something like that would happen if a no deal brexit came to be wich didn't happen plus they already have complete independence from the UK starting 1986. Wondering if Scotland will become fully independent instead of leaving the UK fully like Australia did
     
    Last edited by kumikochan, Nov 2, 2019
  9. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    Might not be in the will of the Scottish people by percentage but interest of is a different matter.

    Labour were quizzed on the matter a couple of days back and while they said no to next year the year after they pointedly said nothing.

    As far as good chance then possible (last one was fairly tight) but there are always those that agitate for such things, sometimes they reckon funds, sometimes they reckon their culture is being subsumed into general English/UK culture (ignoring that the place was not exactly homogeneous to begin with/around the time things joined) and others other things. That said I am not sure what would go there -- part of the concern during the last referendum was that they would be blocked lest people in Belgium, Spain, France and whatever else start getting ideas and there be a nice bout of splitting, and while a land border might not be quite as contentious as one in Northern Ireland it is still not an easy sell. That said another part of the concern was also a lack of a coherent plan (nuclear subs, military, offshore oil and gas and more besides) so maybe they will put something proper together if they reckon another kick at the cat in is in order.

    Australia wise then I am not sure what you are going for anyway they have limited interaction anyway -- technically the queen is head of state and there are some favourable visa laws (though in practice not much better than any other developed country), and while the 1980s probably had some technical breaks then for practical purposes you would likely be looking at the 1930s here. Future trade would be a different matter.
     
  10. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

    pip Reporter
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    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    Channel 4 had an interesting interview with a couple of long term conservative MPs (as in one, though recently booted out for failing to get in line, had been in since the 1970s and has done most of the big roles and another shorter, but did have a stint as leader of the party, albeit in opposition which he later got no confidenced out of and resigned a couple of years back, interestingly though citing proposed cuts to disability benefits as the reason why, and more recently was the chair of the current prime minister's leadership bid ). While many places are quite justifiably wondering what sort of opposition the Labour party might plausibly be able to mount (the comment about the difficulties of getting the "Scottish nationalists", the lib dems and labour to all agree on what day of the week it is amused somewhat) it would also be poor form to skip over the divisions within the Conservatives and historical positions of such things.


    It is classic long form talking head interview so maybe not the "8 minutes is long" triteness that a lot of news seems to plump for these days but does give some insight on the thoughts of things.
     
  11. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Sep 18, 2007
    The Portillo documentary had the same angle. Tories always were similar enough to unify behind one conservative common goal (compromise) - but they couldnt find a way to deal with the (nationalist) brexit front within the party, that lead to the forming of ukip, now tories want ukip voters back.

    Basically.

    It split them this much, because - cuttung ties isnt conservative, hurting businesses isnt conservative, but they had the 'EU is taking mah sovereignty away' streak in the party since the later Thatcher years.

    Will watch. Thanks for sharing.

    edit: Yawn. Three not very bright blokes in a room. Anything interesting happening after the first 12 minutes? ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 4, 2019
  12. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

    pip Reporter
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    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    About a month to go before the national elections that are set to resolve some things so still a lot that could happen but now people have cards on the table

    There is also a new speaker as the last one stepped down (I don't think there was any notable pressure to leave but we may never know there). New one is a labour MP (though tradition dictates one leaves the party behind when they assume such a position -- the previous one originally coming from the conservatives). Traditionally their seat is not contested by the main two parties, don't know if anybody from the smaller ones will run against him.

    The main two UK parties are and at this point have long been
    The Conservatives.
    Labour party.

    There are more parties than that but at this point they have two parties that are a bit more extreme from an idealogical standpoint (though plenty of other analysis could be done which show differences in other fields)

    Brexit party. Ostensibly a new party but led by basically the face of UKIP (UK Independence party, them siphoning off support from the conservatives is arguably what led to this vote on EU membership lark) for many years, and backed by several other key players from the old UKIP setup, so while not technically a rebranding... it is a rebranding. Despite still functioning for the recent EU elections then UKIP themselves seem to have committed suicide (bit of a pity as I read their manifesto during the last European elections and they seem to have elevated themselves above single issue party and actually had some interesting ideas), or at least their council is taking on the political leadership side in such a way that basically everybody loses (don't know if that is a tactical play by someone), so probably a non player for this cycle, don't know if they will recover later but that is later. The Brexit party have made various overtures towards the Conservatives as far as a pact, the latest one being talked about this morning ( https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...atest-brexit-party-nigel-farage-boris-johnson ) as the fears are they could win more support from Conservative voters than they gain from disaffected labour voters.

    Liberal democrats. Despite being in a coalition government with the Conservatives a while back they are generally considered a very left wing party (especially at this point in time).

    On top of this you also have the regional parties. Most important of those is probably the SNP (Scottish National(ist) party) which are ostensibly a left wing party and serve as something of a foil for the Scottish branch of the conservative party since Labour started to crater in Scotland and have been running the joint for a while now. While they are not fielding people outside Scotland they have made rumblings of forming a coalition with Labour if necessary but as nobody wants to appear weak then this has not been fleshed out much, though more later there.

    The UK leaving the EU is the main focus for a lot of this, though Labour seem to realise they are pretty weak on this so have been trying to go for more domestic issues (which to be fair have been somewhat neglected of late) where they have traditionally performed a bit stronger.

    General policies on the EU seem to be
    Conservative party. Aim to push through Boris' deal* that was got to recently.
    Brexit party. Leave with no deal at all.
    Labour. The full official stuff is yet to come but from speeches given seems to be go back to Europe to negotiate another deal (though one that keeps the UK closer to Europe than the current one) over the next 6 months following and then hand that over to the UK public for a referendum of "this deal or we stay". Timeline is considered pretty tight for such a trick and also bothers Europe on a few fronts but if Boris can get some movement in less time and Europe gets more from it then it is not an unworkable one. Not sure what the effects of this will but it is controversial within the party, though tactically speaking at lot of their support base also voted for leaving the EU so not an unjustified to take either.
    Liberal Democrats. Cancel the whole affair. It is very unlikely they will get into power but if they did then as no government can really tie the hands of the next then it would be legal, if incredibly controversial.
    The SNP. Push as hard as they can to remain in the EU, though I am seeing little in the way of official policy or straight bullet point demand ( https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-launches-snp-election-campaign/ ). They claim they also want an(other) independence referendum on independence from the UK too which also means they get to ponder their potential future there (worries about being able to join the EU being part of the major concerns during the last one in 2014), which they have stated will be a condition of their support. Within Scotland they are polling very favourably right now (Labour are basically gone and the Conservatives are also somewhat down, which as their Scotland numbers make up a decent chunk within Westminster changes the maths somewhat).
    The DUP. This is a (there are a few, the UUP being another) Northern Irish want to stay in the UK party (Sinn Fein, one of the we want out of the UK parties, quite famously don't partake in UK national politics, ostensibly by virtue of having to take an oath to the queen but one doubts if that was removed that they would turn up). Notably they are in a coalition with the Conservatives right now (which did lead to some spending the SNP have decried in the link above) but broke ranks a lot when it came to the Boris Johnson bill and don't like it as they reckon it will weaken the UK union (not an untenable position as it quite literally creates a border between parts of the UK and different laws beyond what are voted for by each area's own devolved powers). It should also be noted the Northern Ireland assembly (located in Stormont hence the name sometimes used) has not been sitting for a couple of years at this point, and it might well be 2022 (an interesting point in the leaving the EU timeline as well) before that gets resolved, but even that is somewhat doubtful.

    There is a welsh party called Plaid Cymru but they are a small player even within Wales. They oppose it (even going so far as to no run a candidate in one seat to maximise chances for the anti brexit candidates there a few years back) and have made a pact with the liberal democrats and green party for this one -- https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-and-plaid-cymru-reveal-remain-election-pact .

    *basically the Teresa May "surrender" bill but with the worst aspects trimmed off. They might well have been able to do better with more time but eh.

    So yeah those are the grounds as it presently stands. Still a while to go but nobody is particularly expected to sweep the polls, give or take the SNP within Scotland. Most polls ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49798197 for a reasonable overview) have the Conservatives ahead but not by enough to be assured of breaking deadlocks. It is extremely unlikely a coalition between the liberal democrats and conservatives will happen again, and "while war makes strange bedfellows" is a thing then a labour-liberal democrats coalition would also be a strange beast. What would happen in the event of another deadlocked setup or slim majority setup is a different matter.
     
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  13. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Sep 18, 2007
    China Spares Trade in First Retaliation to U.S.’s Hong Kong Law
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tion-ngos-halt-u-s-navy-visits-over-hong-kong

    China suspends U.S. military visits to Hong Kong, sanctions U.S.-based NGOs
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ng-kong-sanctions-us-based-ngos-idUSKBN1Y60IQ

    This is why the west wasnt that inclined to say anything about the proceeding in Hong Kong. This (red line) was communicated beforehand through diplomatic channels. So basically everyone knew - to better not challenge them on this one.

    China can do pretty much anything in Honk Kong despite escalating the conflict militarily (there are other forms of protest control... just takes longer (attrition)), and the west won't intervene.

    (edit: NGOs remember is how you change 'political sentiment' in a country ('Lobby congress'). Or you build universities, and do the same.. ;) (US in egypt f.e. (arab spring))

    edit2: See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goethe-Institut )
     
    Last edited by notimp, Dec 2, 2019 at 1:16 PM
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