The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by emigre, May 26, 2018.

  1. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    I understand the point you're making, it could and would be an issue but for the fact both parties have said numerous times they wont, under any circumstances enforce a hard border. If nobody is willing to enforce the harder border, It's a non issue.
     
  2. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Yes. But said, and international law - are two different things. :)

    And even if. It can be used as a "pressure point" in negotiations, so it will be used as a pressure point in negotiations.

    And you have to let one side "have it (the golden ticket)" for there to be the potential of a truly open outcome.

    (As in negotiations also have to be allowed to fail.)

    Dont ask me how to solve this one, I'm not paid enough to do.. ;)
     
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  3. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    Yeah, the back stop is an agreement that guarantees negotiation in good faith.

    Contrary to popular belief there is no benefit to the EU of trapping the UK against it's will.

    The ONLY reason someone would be against the backstop is IF they ALREADY had decided to negotiate in bad faith.

    The fact they want the EU to swap the backstop for an identical, but not legally enforceable, plan is absolute proof of that.

    It would be like going to work for someone and when you ask to sign the contract your employer says, "well actually I don't want to sign anything. I want you to work here and I intend to pay you at the end of the month but I don't want anything legally enforceable. I'm totally trustworthy though, so my asking you this shouldn't be a sign at all that I won't pay you." Nobody, including the EU, is dumb enough to fall for that.

    The UK has a long history of being bullies, the EU is just making sure they aren't susceptible to that.

    What is laughable is that the far right politicians hoodwinked voters by saying it would be the easiest negotiation in history & that shows either a fundamental lack of judgement on their part, they are just terrible at their job or they cannot be trusted to tell the truth in any circumstance. We are worse off for them even existing.
     
    Last edited by smf, Aug 20, 2019
  4. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    If you ever leave your london bubble I might attempt to reply to you but when you finish with the same old liberal crap about it being all racist right wingers, you kinda bored me and this is the sum extent of my reply to you.


    I decided to do a little more research on this, It might appear the EU's position has changed, I can no longer find the source that said the EU won't impose a hard border either. I can easily find the UK's position. Weve committed to no hard border.

    How can it be an insurance policy when it is actively preventing us from negotiating a mutually beneficially trade deal. The backstop is categorically not happening. We can either agree a beneficial trade agreement or we can leave without a deal - either way, no backstop. The UK won't be installing a physical border in the island of Ireland, if the EU want to protect their internal market (which is what they really care about, lets not for one minute pretend like they care about peace in Ireland, it's 100% to protect the SM) then they need to inform the Irish they plan on ripping up the Good Friday Agreement, It'll be the EU's fault. Not the U.K's.

    The EU refused to discuss future framework without being given £39billion of UK money, now they're refusing to rule out a hard border after the U.K has. Again - It's the EU weaponising the backstop.
     
    Last edited by shamzie, Aug 20, 2019
  5. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    I hate to break it to you, I am not living in a london bubble. However I do live in a leave area and I can guarantee you it's full of racist right wingers, who like you lake the ability to understand what being racist means.

    If you intend on negotiating a mutually beneficial trade deal then the backstop wouldn't be an issue for you. If what you mean is beneficial to the UK and you think so little of foreigners that you assume you know what is good for them and what they should see as important, then you need to take a long hard look at yourself. It's really patronising.

    They've told you enough times what is important to them, when are you going to stop forcing your idea of what a mutually beneficial deal would look like on them.
     
    Last edited by smf, Aug 20, 2019
  6. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    Congratulations, took you all of two replies to call me a full on racist. You literally know nothing about me, but I can already tell alot about you, keep proclaiming everybody who disagrees with you is racist. That'll definitely bring people around to your way of thinking. Deluded scum.
     
  7. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    If you don't want people to get that impression then don't look at foreigners with distrust and claim you know whats best for them, because those are really accurate tells.

    I've discussed brexit with many leavers and not all of them give off the idea they are racist, some of them just want to remove employement laws that protect uk citizens and the environment. I actually respect that view point more than yours.

    It's hilarious that you started off with insults about me spouting liberal crap because I live in the london bubble, but you then get upset if someone calls you out on your prejudice.

    What gave you the impression that I think you have the capacity to do that? I certainly don't think it's possible to deprogram prejudice on a message board.
     
    Last edited by smf, Aug 20, 2019
  8. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Strike the environment (UvdL has just promised pro climate legislation in amounts member states are scratching their heads on, how to get set in place - just numbers wise (never mind financing), so you didn't leave the EU 'for the environment'). Strike the employment laws, because britain traditionally was a very free (as in little state interference) free market economy (they basically invented neoliberalism).

    Strike every leaver is racist (no, its just that racist tropes were used in not insignificant amounts, to get the public to vote that way).

    And there you have it.. Imho. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 20, 2019
  9. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    I didn't say every leaver was racist, I didn't even call him racist. But he's obviously sensitive enough to misread my post in that way.
     
  10. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    I know. I just meant - strike the notion. Its not something we have to argue about, because it was obviously not the case.
     
  11. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    Right, it was the racists that drove brexit and farage especially used some really racist imagery and misinformation.

    Those who followed him allowed themselves to be seduced by racist ideology, even if they don't consider themselves racist. But then sleepwalking into racism is just as bad really.
     
    Last edited by smf, Aug 20, 2019
  12. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    And there were those who saw that the EU impeded on national power structures, and didn't like it from that perspective.

    But the bulk probably was motivated by "more popular" arguments. :)

    (Again if you have the chance, watch the Michael Portillo production on it (named episode titles on the previous page).)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 20, 2019
  13. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    There are pros and cons of course to EU membership. Failing to see the pros is also prejudice.

    If you thought, well we can get all the benefits of EU membership and get those foreigners out of our hair then that is prejudice.

    Even now a lot of leave voters aren't willing to accept that things will get bad and it's not the EU's fault, which is also prejudice.

    What is annoying is that we could have had an honest debate about it, but everytime we bought it up it was labelled project fear.
     
    Last edited by smf, Aug 20, 2019
  14. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Its also is a position, but yes. Its in the Michael Portillo documentary as well. :) ('If you (directed at an interview partner) would have taken that stance as a spanish or greece MP - you would be classified "highly euro sceptic"'.)

    The UK has more national 'ethos' and stories around being 'exceptional' coming from their common wealth backgound (and before), and they are one of the few countries in Europe that could arguably go the "independent" (being payed off by the US.. ;) ) route.

    For other countries in Europe 'giving up - some national power', doesnt sound nearly as bad - considering the benefits.

    edit: Also, I found out (edit: recently) when watching the two episodes of the documentary series, that Michael Portillo voted for Brexit. I like him, and I'm pretty sure he is not a racist. ;)

    So thats really all it took for me to consider that a viable position. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 21, 2019
  15. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!

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    He's a rich right winger who will either benefit from brexit or can afford the consequences.

    I would need to listen more to how he talks about the EU to determine whether he was prejudiced or not & of course he may just be better at hiding it. To be as successful as he was as a politician requires you to hide your true feelings. The express loves him & they are in a competition with the daily mail for most prejudiced paper in the UK.

    After a bit of googling, I'm not sure he's particularly sensitive to the situation in ireland.

    https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/o...-ireland-referendum-on-the-backstop-1-8966016
    https://www.dailyedge.ie/bbc-pundit-ireland-disruptive-3738869-Dec2017/

    Someone who wasn't prejudiced probably wouldn't have thought or said those things. He has a great voice though, a lot of people are swayed by that.

    Prejudice is a common problem on the right https://www.independent.ie/life/what-a-bloody-awful-country-the-tory-story-of-ireland-36609376.html

    I'm not accusing anyone of dressing up in white gowns and going out burning crosses on peoples lawns, just prejudiced in their thinking.

    I've still yet to hear an argument for leaving the EU that isn't based on prejudice either against foreigners or against people from certain social groups in the UK. I'm an eternal optimist, but it's taken 3 years. People get upset when you point out their prejudice, like it's my fault.
     
    Last edited by smf, Aug 20, 2019
  16. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    If you watch the documentary (which you really should.. ;) (interviews with all the major right wing politicians and party heads, and party strategists in the May era, on the concept of brexit)) - you'd find out that he was head researcher for Thatcher who in the later part of her political life held famous speeches against the further integration concept of the then starting to form EU.

    Watch the two episodes, if you can. ;)
    Its another perspective.

    Here, I list them again:

    Portillo The Trouble With The Tories S01E01
    and
    Portillo The Trouble With The Tories S01E02
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 21, 2019
  17. UltraDolphinRevolution

    UltraDolphinRevolution GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Indeed. Therefore the Germans (and others) will hurt themselves by not heaving an agreement with the UK. The UK trade deficit is roughly £20 billion. So the EU is doing to itself what the USA are doing to China.
    And why are the majority of EU countries willing to do it? It's basically ideology and a higher loyalty to the EU instead of their individual country. They can't allow the UK to do well (so that nobody else dares to leave in the future) and are willing to take a hit in the process.
     
  18. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

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    Dec 23, 2009
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    Belgium
    Partially true. The EU has to protect their internal market. I mean...there's not much use having regulations on all sorts of goods in the EU if there's a 499 kilometer long open door through which basically anyone can just pass with unregulated goods. I'd say "neither side wants that scenario to happen"...but then I'm talking about the EU and May's government. I'm not saying that Johnson disagrees, but due to his lack of any clarity on this point, I'd honestly say that HE attempts to use this as a trump in negotiations (reasoning: "we don't give a damn about regulation, so enforcing your market is effectively YOUR problem. Oh, and...our Northern Ireland outskirt doesn't really fancy physical borders, so you can't really enforce anything, can you? :tpi:").


    PS: a hint: if you don't want to discuss the crazy liberal/leftist/democrat/whatever ideas...don't fuel their fire. Saying what you won't discuss is triggering them into a response. ;)

    It's not the first time I've heard that "the EU is trying to punish the UK for leaving", but nobody could ever explain why. I don't personally believe that the UK can do better on their own, but IMHO they're very welcome to try. Having a wealthy neighbor is always better than having a poor one.
    "but that'll lead to others leaving the EU as well"
    Yeah...so? The point of a union is that it provides more than the individual sum of parts can achieve. If the individual parts (the UK, in this instance) really does better alone, then it BETTER lead to others either leaving the EU or at least advocating a strong overhaul of the EU's role. Again: I don't believe this. But it's not like I'm an expert on the field.

    Also: you make it sound like the EU members don't want agreements with the UK. That's pretty strange, as the EU is barely more than agreements between members. And even when half the country decided that going solo would be better, there's been two years of negotiation. I get that Johnson didn't exactly inherit the best cards he could for his position, but at this point it's absolutely reasonable to say that the UK government simply doesn't want any sort of trade deal. Sorry if that sounds controversial, but it's not the EU that shot down May's deal three times. It's not the EU that had a majority of leave voters. It's not the EU that filled the UK government with hardline brexiteers willing to go with a no deal.

    or let's say for sake of the argument that the EU agrees to whatever it is that Boris actually wants (aside 'no backstop', that is). Who's to say that whatever he comes back to the UK with won't be equally refused by parliament? Result: more delays, more kerfuffle, perhaps even yet another prime minister pretending he or she will save the day...and come YET AGAIN knocking on the EU's door with "we want more" ?
     
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  19. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Why arent individual countries giving away the right to have EU level free market access to a non EU state? (Because it could flood our markets, destroy our economies, ... Which the british already have publicly stated as their reaon for leaving (we want to outcompete france in agriculture, germany in cars, both of them in financial services, we want to outcompete italy in cheap shoes, and...) When EU law states, that they cant negotiate individual trade agreements, it has to go through the EU - which is the point of the EU (single market)? While they are actually currently negotiating to have some form of that anyhow? (Soft brexit, soft borders, no border control.)

    While the UK has just changed government - same party though - to scare us with hard brexit a little more (you've got the roles reversed...).

    What?

    Here is another perspective, should we just lay down and let us be fucked 3 times over?

    Why is the US doing it to china? Because who gets "world reserve currency" or "who can decide what oil is paid in" matters? As in "free money printing - everyone has to take the inflation, not just your country" matters?

    But why cant china just overtake the US economically without them - just like, letting it happen?

    Boy...


    Here is as far as your argument can go. "The EU shouldnt have moved forward on the 'tighter integration' part, because that was politically motivated". Well. Great. Do you realize, that we have kind of 'biggly' economical issues in the south? That itally always is on the brink of being insolvent? And that the issue is the Euro? (Common currency.) Do you realize, that if we just drop the Euro, or make 'the North-Euro' it would either hurt our economic status - or lead to political instability, because the south would hate us?

    If you design unification projects - you kind of design them in a way that cant have anyone just say - ok, now I'm bored - I want to go. Like the UK just did.

    Most likely cause - btw? US payed them off, to hurt the EU economy. Although the jury isn't in if that was before, or after the brexit vote.

    (Come to think if it, i did make a thread that stated, that tradewars are good for nothing (loose/loose) - but I was never _that_ naive..)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 21, 2019
  20. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

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    Oct 15, 2018
    Germany
    As I mentioned in another thread, the EU has done this for a very long time. Import taxes on bicycles from china are almost 50%.
    There's no indication that I'm aware of that any tariffs with the UK would be close to this, these tariffs are mainly employed to protect the local manual labor and low skill labor jobs.

    As a matter of fact the EU does have incentive to negotiate a reasonable trade deal with the UK as Airbus has a lot of manufacturing in the UK and Rolls Royce, who supply the jet engines to Airbus, are very important to the EU economy and military. That is at least until they move out of the UK, AFAIK Rolls Royce has already moved parts of its R&D to Germany in anticipation of brexit and is considering moving more of its business here. PSA (owners of Renault, Peugeot and Opel/Vauxhall) are considering moving their manufacturing out of the UK as well.
     
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