The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

[Doran754]

Yeah...the problem is that you currently have such a PM. One that starts with the assumption that the EU needs the UK more than vice versa, and is convinced that all that is needed is a clear vision of what the UK needs to achieve. It's kind of self-evident, but...the EU also wants things. And while I personally disagree with May's deal (as obvious, I just want you guys to remain), at least she understands this. Both the UK and EU have - or should have - a good relationship as common goal, and as such, talking terms used are in the vein of "partners", "trade deals" and "good standing". That news reporter suggests just passing by what terms the EU deems necessary for a union to work, just cherry picking the parts the UK likes and contributing nothing but joined projects (erm...isn't the maintenance of free movement part of that contribution?).

Yes, she's a remainer, indeed. And do you remember WHY she got that position?
It's because none of the brexiteers had a solid plan to work on, had no idea on the details they wanted to achieve or how to do it. And this isn't even me being sarcastic about things: Farage quit ukip mere days after the brexit result, and Boris Johnson and Michael Gove were busy backstabbing each other. I might be wrong (and to be honest: I'm all ears on news sources that point out an alternative narrative ), but I think May was just chosen because nobody else wanted the hassle of dealing with the EU (well knowing that they'd never agree on the wild promises that were given to the people).

None of what you said is true. The EU does need the UK more than vice versa and you're deluded if you believe otherwise. Nowhere else in the world does a TRADE deal require "the four pillars" what does a trade deal have to do with immigration? Nothing! The EU is a way for Germany to control continental Europe and you're falling for it big time. I suggest you look up how many euro bonds Germany has sold above 5% this week.

We buy far more from you than you do from us, theres 3x as many EU nationals in the UK than vice versa. Ask yourself why 27 different nationalities flock to the UK but only 1/3 of that number has gone to the EU. Asking for a free trade deal isn't cherry picking it's common sense. The trouble is the EU wants to control our tax our trade and has the audacity to charge £39bn for it. I can't imagine what it must feel like too feel so utterly small that you think you need the EU, I thought Belgium was a proud strong country, It truly is sad to me that you're all so willing to throw away centuries of national culture. But have fun dying in the EU army because Germany says so.

She got that position because like the rest of parliament there are more remainers than brexiteers, they put her in that position to negotiate a terrible deal so we find ourselves exactly where we are now. Leadsom is a leaver and she came close but had to drop out because she made some silly comments on the radio. Her plan was to activate article 50 the day after. To say " you dont have a plan " isn't true, we have one. You just dont like it. You're correct that farage swanned off, but he isn't even an MP, was never in the negotiations and had about as much sway as you and I do. I love that you think that the UK supreme court being the highest court in the land and controlling our own immigration is "wild promises"

 

[notimp]

Yes, yes I do. Because that's what it's all about. The EU isn't everything, and you're certainly going to struggle when the UK stops paying in net billions each year.

Another effing moron. And you are going to struggle, when you dont have access to our ressource and wares markets.

If you are not a child, or someone that never heard of trade basics, let me explain this to you. In economics, you can make deals - where both parties profit (regionality (efficiency benefits), bigger markets, lower entry costs). And you can make deals where both parties loose. (No you do hard brexit, no you do it, no you vote on what 12 different brexit deals within a week and a half now? Doesnt that seem moronic to you?)

The ONLY thing the UK has in its backpocket are their allied friends of the "we all speak english as our first language front" - which is the weighning world power currently (Europe isnt one to begin with, they just were a big domestic market). So part of UK elites found it funny to suck on uncle sams tits more better, and sell out everyone around them for a worse economic future, for both of them.

"But uncle Sam will pick up our bills." "And we will sell services to the chinese." Good luck. Thats the traitors part.

Also idiots ("Whats the EU!" googling, taking votes on 12 different approaches to leave the EU in the final week or so publicaly deranged looking bafoons, with "I'll resign, if you take the deal" powerplays - everything in those series of events is moronic.)

Two postings above I gave you the benefit of the doubt that this is all show - and the brits are playing for time. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

But all in all I hate the people that think, politics is a game of figureheads and play it like a soap - most. You really havent understood anything.

Also here is the thing about "netto payers" into the EU. Their economies profited most. You were paying taxes, that were reinvented into a common market. If you now dont want to pay in exchange for loosing the market you were part of - guess how your businesses will go short term.

(Thats why you had all your sectors do stress tests, before the Brexit vote - to see if the whole thing would falter, or you'd just make it. You'll just make it.)

 

[Doran754]

Another effing moron. And you are going to struggle, when you dont have access to our ressource and wares markets.

If you are not a child, or someone that never heard of trade basics, let me explain this to you. In economics, you can make deals - where both parties profit (regionality (efficiency benefits), bigger markets, lower entry costs). And you can make deals where both parties loose. (No you do hard brexit, no you do it, no you vote on what 12 different brexit deals within a week and a half now? Doesnt that seem moronic to you?)

The ONLY thing the UK has in its backpocket are their allied friends of the "we all speak english as our first language front" - which is the weighning world power currently (Europe isnt one to begin with, they just were a big domestic market). So part of UK elites found it funny to suck on uncle sams tits more better, and sell out everyone around them for a worse economic future, for both of them.

"But uncle Sam will pick up our bills." "And we will sell services to the chinese." Good luck. Thats the traitors part.

Also idiots ("Whats the EU!" googling, taking votes on 12 different approaches to leave the EU in the final week or so publicaly deranged looking bafoons, with "I'll resign, if you take the deal" powerplays - everything in those series of events is effed.)

Two postings above I gave you the benefit of the doubt that this is all show - and the brits are playing for time. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

But all in all I hate the people that think, politics is a game of figureheads and play it like a soap - most. You really havent understood anything.

I'm a moron? 27 Countries in the EU, 180+ outside the EU. I'm guessing Maths isn't your strong point.

Do you live in Japan or Europe? Or are you in the UK on benefits? If you want to get personal let me know, otherwise drop the attitude you bellend. Doesn't it seem moronic to me that parliament has voted on a load of different options when we've already voted to leave? Yes it does. If you think you're so great without us then why are you crying about it? You seem really aggitated about the UK leaving, is it because the gravy train is over? If you don't need us why are you so mad and bitter. You come across as really pathetic.

-Literally never mentioned America
-Literally never mentioned China

Imagine thinking you're in a position to comment on the future of the UK, dont you need to ask merkel first? I'm pretty sure you're Germanys bitch so from now on dont even acknowledge me until you've asked for permission from the chancellor.

- lol I dont require the benefit of any doubt. I voted to leave the EU, i voted to stop uncontrolled immigration, to stop vast amounts of money being sent your way for "trade" to stop eu nationals coming here for "work" aka benefits. For our parliament to make and control OUR laws not verhofftwat. I'm not playing for time, nobody I know who voted leave is playing for time, we want to be out of the corrupt cabal known as the EU and the sooner you get that in your head the better. The payments will stop. Were done bailing out Greece and Portugal and Spain and soon Italy.

Get over it.

 

[notimp]

I just read your last line. Not bothering with the rest of your post. You are a person that thinks, that politics is something like a bar topic, where you exchange how different people feel, and the one with the better football team wins in the end.

It is not.

I brought in America, because because the FREAKING lead economic advisor of Boris Johnson brought "coasting on our five eyes relationships" and "selling services to india and china" to the table as your most exciting prospects economically in the mid term future.

If you'd had read this thread - but of course you havent.

You think, that the way you talk about a failed personal relationship will just be enough in an international politics discussion. Its not.

Here is the thing. When we break down topics to "common language", so more people can participate, we also get a few folks in there, who think, that they should move the bar lower, and win on "whos the winningest face" and "emotion".

If you want to do relationship "get over it" cheap emotional wins on the internet, you havent understood this subforum. We do our damnest, to keep the bar of entry low - but not resort to myths and useless allegories ("its just like in a marriage.." its not - thats just your horizon.

Try to broaden it a bit more. If you get cheap thrills out of a "you guys arent the only ones around, get over it" quote in a political discussion. ) Is that what the US says to mexico? Is that what Japan says to China? You still are at a level where it doesnt benefit any rational argument.)

You are *winning* the argument, on an emotional ground, that simply isnt there. We are not your fiances, you are leaving a political, and trade union. And will probably have to spend billions on ireland and scottland alone, just to have them shut up (because they are the main losers of your "deal" as of now). (If the outcome is true economic separation.)

You destroyed a win/win deal (economically) - for an uncertain future. Thats, where the hate comes from. In your 'relationship' allegory.

And before people are back to fantasizing about who really broke up with whom, because they are a potentially higher status catch - none of this is a thing on the political level. It really isnt. Thats just - phantasy. Its where the allegory breaks.

 

[Doran754]

The most ironic part of your post was you telling for me to be more broad. From a guy that can't see past Europe, I find that hilarious. Scotland and Ireland are part of the UK. Just like Gibraltar and many other terrorities. It cost what it cost.

What does it matter to you? It doesn't bother me what Germany spends to keep France happy. You're way too invested in something you have no control over, I'd suggest it's because you realise how much the EU needs the UK and when we leave the collapse will be imminent.

You're trying really hard with all your analogies to come across as the smart european who knows everything, when in reality you just come across as a douche.

Its not a "cheap thrill" It's a big wide world out there we can trade with, we aren't limited to you. We'd like a free trade deal but if not, oh well. I'm bored of going back and forth with you as to be quite frank your rhetoric lacks any basis of argument. You talk about me being emotional when every post you've replied with has been like a rant from a 6 yr old.

The final thing im going to say to you is I dont need to explain why I want to leave, nobody does. Just that its happening, were going to leave, we can have a free trade deal or we can trade on wto terms but the sooner you realise were done paying for europe and you will lose the automatic right to live here (like any normal nation has, borders) the better. You'll be happier.

 

[notimp]

I find that hilarious.

I drew you a map. Your future "relationships" are all over the place and contradictory.

You know how we call this in politics? Someone who got bought out by another "divide and conquer" player. Again - russia was for you doing it, america was, china probably was as well - none of them had your interests at heart, they only found it funny - to have one of you in the middle of europe, for the rest of our countries to deal with.

Thats the part of BRITISH EXCEPTIONALISM thats left. You were a political anchor for the US on this side of the pond during the cold war. They put money into this, you wouldnt believe - but that perspective is gone. Also - I dont know if you have read it - but the US, geopolitically is at a decline.

So they do what empires always do in that state, and they try to retract. They are not expanding. If your remember - UKIPs political stance was "lets retract as well", but you are not an empire.

So whats so fantastic about "being able to deal with india and china" but outside the EU?

Again, perspectives are what you are sold on - but they arent great. And you really destroyed a win/win configuration (regionality) to get there.

The "look at the perspectives" salesmen, are all over the moron rightwing interthewebs currently. The thing they dont tell you is, that you just harmed both of our economies severely. For no better economical outlook at all.

You spew the idotic and debunked 1 billion netto payer number as if it was a reason. It wasnt. The ONLY POLITICAL REASON for brexit was not to get into further political integration projects within the EU. (Pay more.)

The "get our money back" line was never true from the beginning. Economically you lost. politicaly (ireland, scotland...) you lost.

And the only thing thats left for moron salesmen to sell you is "now the future finally is brighter".

Looking at you currently - really?

You are an agitation mashine - but you know nothing.

Only one thing is important to me - that others dont fall for what you are selling. Lets tell people the real story - not made up prospects, and the political lies, that never were true from the beginning.

Youll see it - your economy will tank in the short term. And after that, who knows.

You dont excell in anything at the moment apart from selling out to interests that arent regional. And the city of london causing financial crisis all over the world. Rejoice in it. The future will be services, not production (where regional flows of ressources is king).

Traitors, splitters. Freaking myth lowing "we left you" spewing, emotional personal relationship allegory snakeoil-mongers.

The hate comes, from the UK having destroyed an economical win win situation, for no clear reason.

(Reason given by the elites, behind that political movement was - because they didn't like the further integration movement within the EU.)

 

[Doran754]

Youll see it - your economy will tank in the short term. And after that, who knows.

I skimmed over the sheer amount of utter shite you just posted. What you clearly don't and will never understand is that it's NOT about the economy, It's about sovereignity. Obviously you're from some cuckland that doesn't care who your master is. Congrats.

 

[notimp]

You freaking lousy (now that could be seen as an offense) buzzword junky.

If thats what you retreat back on...

Sovereignty is just the roundabout way of saying what I've encapsulated with "UKIP elites didn't like the further integration projects within the EU".

But NONE, and I emphasize NONE was discussed in your pre brexit election campaigns, there it was all the completely assinine - immigrants be taking me jobs, and all the money we'd have for the NHS, if we stop paying EU, and a literally sickening amount of Britannia in past wars callbacks.

Here are ALL your arguments refuted so far -

- 1 billion saved! Ts. That was tax money going into common EU projects, part of which were funds and regulation projects, so the common market works. Meaning. You gave this money out, your businesses made it back manyfold. Its designed that way. If you stop funding EU projects, guess what. You stop having equal access to the market. Thats not money saved.

You paid 8bn a year (after all kinds of rebates and couponing.. https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...les/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31 ) and that was for the EU budget.

- This leads into your sovereignity argument. Here is your trade deficit within the EU ( https://www.theguardian.com/busines...de-deficit-with-the-eu-is-woeful-and-widening ). Here is your reminder, that the UK joined the European Economic Community in 1973 which was probably before you were born.

And there is the other side of that.

Where was your sovereignity, when you influenced the EU expansion in the east, making sure a whole lot of poorer countries joined, because of geopolitical decisions that where at least influenced by US policy? Where was your sovereignity, when your banks started exporting the US home made financial crisis all over the world, hurting former "partner" (/satellite) states the most, and benefiting US and your economy most in the process? ('But its all global now...?!' Was the excuse back then.)

When you look at the net beneficiaries of the EU budget funds, you get:
https://fullfact.org/europe/claim-about-uks-eu-contribution-correct-meaningless/
Poland
Greece
Romania
Hungary
Portugal
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Lithuania

Now contrast and compare this with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

And understand, that YOU as a political force PUSHED for them to enter as quickly as possible.)

- Where was your sovereignity in the freaking five years past, where your entire national politics lie in shambles, which lead to the public unrest, that lead to brexit? You are the only country in Europe that still has a labor party left, presumably - because your income inequalities reached "seconds world" level figures in recent months ( https://www.theguardian.com/society...as-inflicted-great-misery-on-citizens-un-says )

Thats all on you. Thats your freaking local policy making at work. You did nothing. You always were proud to be ultra liberal to the end. And the end was, that you faked out a bunch of poor people to vote xenophobic, and told them their NHS depended on it. Your companies benefited greatly from the common market. You just didn't vote in administrations that would have looked at social cohesion.

Thats all on you. Now the sovereignity part here becomes complaining, tthat you dont have the money, because you also pay for the EU budget? Which benefited you and your political/economic agendas in past years probably most? (Different sectors of the economy (namely production) depend more on an open stream of wares that f.e. financial services)

- And now you want out of the decision making comittees to "pay less", and still have access to our markets? Is that the sovereignity you are talking about.

I almost punched my screen, when I recognized, that the idiot right wing youtuber inteviewing Boris Johnsons evonomic adviser did the best he could, in hiding that he skipped school when they went over percentages in math class, but probably dropped the word sovereignity in every second sentence.

Now what does this ecaxtly mean?

If you were afraid of further integration movements within the EU, you let NONE of that be discussed in the forefront of Brexit discussions. You went with false pretenses (NHS!) and xenophobia instead.

And the poorer folks believed UKIP, and saw it as a protest vote. When it wasnt. When it literally decided the future of the European continent. For you - because Blair didn' refuse free movement of people from the poorer states, as NO EU country can do.

Were they (the poorer folks) voting sovereign? They were voting because of economic pressures brought onto by five years of domestic political inaction. But you blamed the EU.

Because that was en vogue. It was always them - not you. And now we see you in action. What a wonderful image. May your next government be a more competent one.

 

[Doran754]

Me smart, you dumb.

 

[Taleweaver]

None of what you said is true. The EU does need the UK more than vice versa and you're deluded if you believe otherwise.

We'll see.

 

[Doran754]

We'll see.

We shall, but we can remain friends, don't want to leave Europe, just don't want to be in a political union.

Loving all the “the country will be poorer because of Brexit” rhetoric been spouted by the Remoaners over here.

The NHS is in dire straits, the Police are in turmoil, the prisons are in chaos, 14 million people are living in poverty, our education system is failing, we have inadequate affordable housing available, our armed forces are under resourced, our roads are like a moonscape and we are still recovering from arguably the worst financial crisis this country has ever witnessed - all of which happened whilst we were/are inside the EU.

Wish they would wake up for gods sake - how could it possibly be any worse!?

Just leave without a deal

 

[Axido]

Could the two of you please turn this into a private discussion if nobody else seems to actually care? Or at least please both agree on who of you is a moron and who isn't...

 

[Phenj]

>The EU does need the UK more than vice versa
ok pakistan

 

[notimp]

Could the two of you please turn this into a private discussion if nobody else seems to actually care? Or at least please both agree on who of you is a moron and who isn't...

Do you think I do the research und link articles for someone who equates brexit to a relationship - literally?

Do you think I will stop talking about brexit in the brexit thread - because nobody cares? About brexit. In the brexit thread?

I'm sorry, but if someone uses all, the argumentative force of "there are other suitable business partners in the world despite the EU, get over it", I see this going over very well in their local pub - but by any other standard, its useless.

Also I've ended the argument. But you had do rekindle it to play white knight demands more PC language. Now that urks me to no end.

Here is the thing. Either we can call out false premises, by calling the people who bring them forth repeatedly, by harsher names (they still might be great people), or we can play with sand forms, and let the "everyones opinion is just as valid" approach drive opinion making.

Speaking of political debates, UK style - I could call the moron a right honorable gentlemen, if he prefers it - which has just the same purpose semantically (curse people out by overcomplimenting them, until everyone gets, that thats whats being done), but I'm afraid no one would know the semantic coding of that debate tool in here.

You call someone a fool in public political debates - so that you 'win the argument' - one, but also they doublecheck the points they brought forward, because you deem them, so completely invalid - that no other drebating strategy fits.

So its either kill them with kindness ('I'm sure you are absolutely right.') Or calling them out for not knowing anything remotely. If you forbid that for PC reasons, you'll have a heck of a hard time doing public debates in a public forum.

Because the barrier of entry is so low.

And if you'd seen already five different right-wing opinion jokeys on the youtubes, doing their 'lets just look at future outlook' spiel, and doubling down on "national souvernity" as a talking point without any reason given - you'd understand my reaction a bit better.

(Being part of a trade-, or (very light) political union doesnt impede national sovereignty. And if all the "impeding" is really about, we had to let polish people work in our great country, then spell it out loud, and dont hide behind sovereignty as an argument.)

So you dont know anything, tackle a political issue with relationship logic, and repeat what you heard from youtube opinion pundits without thinking or research? Should I welcome you with open arms? Let you have a few others to convince just by the way you entered the stage (bravado)?

edit: Also, if someone else does this to me, I usually get pretty silent quickly (because I'm unsure in my argument), or I get highly analytical, and throw around documented facts and sources like theres no tomorrow. I know the other side as well. No one is perfect.

 

[Taleweaver]

Ahem... Meanwhile ...

There was a third vote on May's befit deal. Not the full deal, but that would only be important if it passed. It didn't. So no matter how you spin it, at least things are really clearing up in terms of outcome.

Either the UK organizes what's necessary for the upcoming EU election (deadline : April 12th),and there 's more delay possible.
Or the UK doesn't do that, and there'll be a no deal brexit.

 

[Xzi]

The NHS is in dire straits, the Police are in turmoil, the prisons are in chaos, 14 million people are living in poverty, our education system is failing, we have inadequate affordable housing available, our armed forces are under resourced, our roads are like a moonscape and we are still recovering from arguably the worst financial crisis this country has ever witnessed - all of which happened whilst we were/are inside the EU.

The question is: how much of that is actually the EU's fault and how much is the UK government's fault? There's no guarantee that any of this will get better simply by leaving the EU, and there is still the distinct possibility that some of it could get worse.

 

[notimp]

Remember the 8bn figure (the 'net loss' the UK has in public spending to finance the EU budget? (It spends more yearly, but gets direct payouts as well, thats substracted.)

Here is the yearly public spending budget for the Uk (source not reputable (?) but checks out with others, and has a nice break down).

src: https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/breakdown

Even if you substract pension costs (dead cost, because it always has to be paid - there you have little leeway) the 8bn that you spent on the EU budget has in no ways ruined you. And it guaranteed that open markets could function.

That money goes into funds that are accessible by poor countries (and countries that get paybacks f.e. for their agricultural sector), so they can develop their economies 'in a way the EU likes' thats there, so those countries dont say f*ck you, we want tariffs back, we import everything from the richer countries.

The money also finances the EU political state.

All money in the current Euro system ended up in germany, because they were so efficient in the production of production goods (and cut social spending at the same time). The same way, the UK profited as well. Free access to 27 markets. Now the UK has an abysmal trade deficit (also buys more stuff than it sells) with the EU - which means, that you werent that competitive - but then, you had other qualities (military, 'former colonies', financial services - I guess...).

Now lets look at EU regulation.

Most of it currently is done for trade purposes (degrees a cucumber should be bent (didnt go through, but is always mentioned). But you also have European law thats deciding which laws get implemented (decision is made in the EU legislature, then countries have two years to adapt that into local laws). Thats basically done, so interest brokers (lobbyists, NGOs, ...) have a central focal point, and dont have to deal with 28 states individually.

As with any parliament, you had your representatives there, which told you 'I'm for the people', then voted whatever when they were in brussels, then went back home and blamed everything on "the darn EU", whenever they could - because media transparency of what happens in Brussels is low. (Euronews and other efforts never worked.)

And thats the thing. The 8bn a year number is so low compared to the gains of your private sector (not part of the numbers above) selling into EU markets, that you literally could have dreamt up one more tax and would have gotten it back. Its almost a none issue. Which is why you heard the entire 'if we werent in the EU we could use the money for sick people (NHS)' first in the brexit marketing. Its a populist argument. It doesnt make sense, compared to what you loose. Just because your local politicians still want to be seen as ultra market liberal and not tax companies more - you dont leave a trading union.

But then you dont want to leave it anyhow, you just want to not pay for it any more. And still have access. Which is dumb. Because thats not going to happen. And if you pay for it, but arent in the EU, then you lost your political voice, and still have to adhere to trading regulations when selling into the EU. At least you could have your tariffs back I guess...

But in the end then this becomes a battle (lose/lose) instead of a everyone profits if there are less trading restrictions (you can think of them as sunk costs, so costs you have to forfeit so specific UK regulation is met, or someone sits in a customs office, looking at goods) win/win situation.

No one disregards, that the UK is in a rough spot in several sectors of their economy / state of public services - its just that the EU had basically no say in how you distribute your tax money as a state, and no say in how you tax different sectors of your economy. No say in what public projects you create (remember the EU budget creates funds do give you incentives to create specific ones, but you dont have to go that way - its a soft modus of power, mainly to incentivize poorer countries to go into a certain direction).

All of that is on you, and you alone. You had at least five years of government not wanting to make tough or impactful decisions whatsoever, they just wanted to coast it out and play "can I become prime minister?" games - while your economy tanked. What great goods or services is the UK known for currently? You were the financial center of the EU, and what good it has done to the rest of the union (financial crisis of 2008) - now you want to pay more for imports your industries are highly dependant on, apparently (leave the common market). Which industry also doesnt like much - at least not the manufacturing industry (blue color jobs).

So basically UKIP made poor people vote against their interests using xenophobia. (Polish people are taking all the jobs.) End of story.

There is an argument to be made, that they did it because they didn't like further integration efforts within the EU (really pay more for poorer countries, military expenses, ...) those are future facing, and something you could have influenced. In a sense, we (on the left) are happy that you are gone, because of it - but looking at the economic impact, we are not (lose/lose).

 

[emigre]

The question is: how much of that is actually the EU's fault and how much is the UK government's fault? There's no guarantee that any of this will get better simply by leaving the EU, and there is still the distinct possibility that some of it could get worse.

The latter completely. Austerity is a huge factor for why Leave won the referendum and one which isn't spoken about. The Tory/Lib Dem coalition in 2010 really is going to prove been a disaster for the country when we look back at this era.

 

[Taleweaver]

I've been very busy the last week. I try to keep up but I may have missed things. Three things are important now if I'm correct :

1) the deadline gets awfully close
2) may and corbyn are now working together on a deal (one that'll satisfy enough I presume?)
3) the UK is making preparations for its EU election, just in case that 2) isn't done in time

The last part of 3) strikes me as odd. I thought it was already a given that there wasn't enough time left for another deal (ahem... And that 's not taking the uk government' s habit of delaying everything into account)?

 

[JoeBloggs777]

I think all this has been planned and has been a great con,

there will be a deal btw Corbyn and May there has to be , because without a deal there cannot be a 'confirmatory referendum'

I think any referendum is organised by the Electoral Regulator,\Commission ? and there can only be 2 options on a referendum, so LEAVE with no deal, Leave with Mays deal or REMAIN cannot be the options, Parliament has ruled out a Leave with no deal, so the only 2 options are Remain or leave with Mays deal.

so if it goes to another referendum then I think Remain will win.

totally wrong, we had a referendum and the result was to leave, so any referendum should be Leave without a deal or Mays deal.

I'm disgusted by many of the Mp's on betraying a Democratic referendum result and its a dark day for democracy and the fall out will damage the Labour party at the next election.