1. PerfectB

    PerfectB Advanced Member
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    The biggest issue at hand is that, as the US (where I live) faces down late-stage capitalism, one party is heavily criticized as fascist while the other is criticized as socialist. I prefer not to align myself with any party lines...they mostly deal in social issues when campaigning (where I have opinions on both sides of the spectrum) while the fiscal issues are largely ignored (other than using the vague phrase 'The Economy' as if it were some entity which we can directly control via a singular law or something). My preference is to consider myself a realist--and I think personally that the biggest issue is that capitalism, fascism, socialism etc all really look the same as you approach the endgame because they all have the same endgame. The few profit and hold power over the many. The mechanism of action is different, yes, but a lever-action rifle and a bolt-action rifle both are rifles are they not?

    But I'm far from an anarchist. Uncontrolled chaos vs controlled chaos is based on what the majority of humans would prefer. Many people point to the taxation systems of other countries, and how they have universal healthcare or this that and the other without a significant percentage increase in taxes over what we (the US) currently pay. They also use a different currency than the USD, with different exchange rates, inflation, interest rates, and average incomes. Percentages can be weighted percentages and are not apples to apples comparisons, which is difficult to communicate in a country where the majority didn't pass their high school Algebra courses. It also stands to reason that a country's tax system working effectively could be attributed somewhat to the fact that said country has a geographic size and population that doesn't even rival the size of an average state in the US.

    Diatribe aside, the issue that the corporate tax rate is too low or that the mega-wealthy need to pay their fair share, as it were, is flawed fundamentally. The dirty secret, and the issue with the shrinking middle class, is that the people in the middle have always held the burden. Once a certain income level is reached, there is little sympathy for the fact that the government 'asks' for your contributions, as you can afford to pay far more easily than those living in poverty. Yet, the middle class lacks the means of the corporations, wherein the amount of tax owed vs. the ways to avoid those taxes is both a feasible compromise as well as a business decision. The middle class cannot actually afford to dodge their taxes in any realistic way that doesn't result in getting caught, and therefore must pay them. Increase the corporate tax rate all you'd like, it just makes their decisions of how to dodge that rate effectively an easier line item to reconcile.

    As far as what the taxes actually go towards, my girlfriend and I do not want children, so why should we pay for schools? Many argue we will change our minds, but in our 30s I doubt we will soon; we've had time and anecdotal experience to realize it doesn't interest us. Regardless, it's been shown that should we not pay into the educational system at all, the only thing we've really accomplished is creating a bunch of uneducated and unqualified young people who quickly realize that crime is profitable. It's ultimately cheaper to pay educational taxes for a school we won't utilize than it is to deal with break-ins and theft. It would be great if I could only pay for the roads I drive on regularly, until I need to travel for work and utilize a state road that could not be possibly funded or maintained by the small towns nearby. Unfortunately, when speaking of things like that then yes, you do need to pay some taxes against things you don't use, because the outcome of not paying would be more costly for you in the end.

    All that said, am I happy to pay taxes? Not particularly. I stopped looking at the gross/net income on my paystubs long ago, as it's practically stomach turning to think of how much energy you expended to finance things that at times you disagree with. Tax season is equally as disturbing to me, as my social media feed becomes populated with many receiving large checks from the government, while my refund check barely covers the effort of delivering it to me. I mean, in a sense all that means is that my day-to-day existence is likely far more comfortable than theirs, but human nature prevents me from seeing that at that particular time. Which brings me to my overall point: I think that, if people really saw a better return on investment of paying taxes in their lives, they'd feel more compelled to be comfortable with it.

    The things people can see mean a lot more than the intangible things they can't. The county finally fixed the pothole on my street that I've been driving around for five years a few weeks ago. We'll call that my return on investment
     
  2. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Can you not view it as you are filing your taxes properly so that you don't give the government an interest free loan every year?
     
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  3. PenelopeEll

    PenelopeEll Newbie
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    Depending on what state you live in. For example, where I live, taxes are unreasonably high and very hard on the pocket. I am often at a loss for this reason, but there are also prolific months when there is especially a lot of money and the profits are good. Try to guess which state I'm talking about. Keeping a business here is especially difficult. However, I started it with very reliable people who helped me figure it all out and calculate all the income, expenses, and taxes. Now I'm proud of what I've accomplished, even though it wasn't easy for me
     
    Last edited by PenelopeEll, Jan 26, 2021
  4. Azerus_Kun

    Azerus_Kun Pro Plasher
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    -there shouldnt be both income tax and property tax, it should be one or the other, property tax is a relic of feudalism where you could argue someone's income was more or less directly proportional to the land they had
    -stuff that can be privatized should be privatized, healthcare is a limited resource and should be treated as such, same as education
    -politicians should earn only a liveable wage, not as much as they do (i'd say minimum, but imo minimum wage does not have to be livable)
    -if taxes are "temporarily" increased for a specific project (such as building a school) there should be safeguards in place to make sure they return to the original rates once said project is finished
    -customs shouldnt have been a thing in the first place

    these are just my personal views
     
  5. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    99% of americans will never be able to discuss on this level - theres your problem.


    Not saying that the people in the video are especially bright - or happening, its just, that they arent limited by holding fake fascism vs socialism debates.

    Oh, and btw - Chomsky is correct, the left is now also the party of globalists and industry - so not necessarily sure, how you'd be able to call that 'socialism'.

    Get STEM, get reschooled, get UBI and shut up. What party? Faces, US citizens vote for faces. And if one of the faces is a hyper motivated narcissist - US can drift into fascism, no problem - none of them is ever confronted with real political issues - so what would they know. They hear at a rally - now we march, and if thats enough to bring more people on our side, we end democracy - and they march.

    You dont fix that. You just ignore. Censor. And carry on - apparently.


    edit: US people are so dumb, that when FED has to print money to keep the economy afloat, because they have no social security systems - they start calling that socialism.

    US people are so dumb, that politicians can openly say 'people liked that 2000 USD for free' idea, we should campaign more on that - thats popular! So dumb they just found out, that people would vote if you give everyone 2000 USD checks.

    US people are so dumb, that in the middle of a recession, they'd want industry to start paying for universal health care.

    Oh - and if you let them, they'd prop up polls, if texes are justifiable, or too much. How do you feel about it?

    Oh, I so long for the time, when the US cant print themselves out of every crisis, and actually have to resort to real income taxes like other countries. Only 20 more years.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jan 25, 2021
  6. Purple_Shyguy

    Purple_Shyguy GBAtemp Maniac
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    just dont pay taxes lol
     
  7. SG854

    SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    There's ways to avoid taxes as an an American citizen which of course I don't do because I'm a good little boy who pays my taxes.
     
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  8. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Theory crafting:

    What are taxes (the part thats not already spent because of outstanding obligations):
    - The ability to sustain 'shocks' (economic, natural, healthcare)
    - The ability to 'guarantee' payback on national debt (If no growth f.e.)

    Why is not demanding high taxes good?
    - More incentive to innovate
    - Keep people focused on the day to day job market and not thinking about anything else.

    When can you afford not to demand high taxes?
    - If you are a tax heaven (think switzerland)
    - If you can absorb shocks, by printing the worlds currency and never go bankrupt.
    - If you are a developing nation, so high risk is ok, because if you loose - people wont revolt, because 'having nothing' also is a lifestyle.


    Bonus: Keep your people actually so dumb, that they think that 'societal debate' about 'should individuals pay more or less taxes' is something that affected by decisions (/preferences) on the individual level ("but I'm super entrepreneur, if I make party so more people think like me, society will be better..." morons - morons, because you can install progressive taxrates, foster innovation and tax high income earners at the same time) - and not about raising innovation, or balancing your debt risk.

    So basically - you can afford low taxes - if you can balance 'risk' in a way that most countries cant. By doing that - and having an infrastructure thats not crumbling - you create an innovation friendly environment.

    If you actually have to count on your society to actually not storm the Capitol, because they are bored and stupid one afternoon, you might have to invest more into society as well. (Sustained high tax output.) But as long as you dont have to - by all means, keep the tax heaven model. If sh*t goes wrong the whole world pays for the US anyhow.


    edit: And all you need to do to find that out is to go onto this Wikipedia page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

    And sort by Income tax, then look at the countries before and after the US. Do it for both brackets (lowest marginal rate and highest marginal rate).

    edit2: And if you think - right about now would be a good time to increase income tax (i.e. universal health care) - think again. Or get a brain, or...
    Which is why even thinking about the 'does the left want socialism'? Debate in the US makes me want to slap myself. Proposal is that stupid currently. (If this ends up putting more risk on SMEs and middle classes... In a recession...)

    Nonsense:

    [​IMG]

    First column is avg corporate tax rate, second column is lowest median income tax, third column, is highest median income tax, fourth column is consumption tax.

    http://www.worldwide-tax.com/japan/japan_tax.asp
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jan 25, 2021
  9. monkeyman4412

    monkeyman4412 Gbatemp's ™ master
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    Well if your a rich person or own a massive company. you can likely get away with that. (tax havens, pulling legal loopholes. change the law through lobbying)
    Be a poor person?
    Oh I'm sorry the IRS wants to see you personally.
     
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