Taxes: Justifiable or Too Much?

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by IncredulousP, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. The Real Jdbye

    The Real Jdbye Always Remember 30/07/08

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    Taxes are definitely a necessity for a well functioning government, but at some point it becomes so much that it feels unfair and I feel like we reached that point here in Norway a while back. Other countries seem to do just fine with much lower taxes so it doesn't make much sense.
    It's just crazy to me how many times the same money is taxed in a short time span. When you get paid, when you pay for stuff, and then again when the employees at the place you paid for stuff get paid, nevermind all the other ways you're required to give money to the government, and that cycle repeats ad infinitum.
     
  2. deinonychus71

    deinonychus71 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    I would gladly pay more taxes if It meant free school or decent healthcare, among other things.

    Taxes are a necessity, not everything can be regulated by the market. For profit hospitals or prisons are a good example of its perverse effects.
     
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  3. Youkai

    Youkai Demon

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    Well as far as I know the maximum is 47% plus 19% consumers tax would be 66% as if you round it you would add it up from 5 so ~70% is actually not completely wrong though but not very accurate.

    When I was in Japan I had to pay highest tax which was about 20% + 8% consumers tax ... at first I thought "damn those companys don't pay proper money" but after my first paycheck I was surprised as I still got so much money compared to what I would have gotten in Germany if earning the same hourly wage.


    I think taxes are important and correct to pay but the problem is that they are not allways used well (in Germany we have a group of people making a book out of the biggest tax wasting every year and even a TV show that showed some of these like bridges you can not use because there is no street going to them or bicycle ways you can not reach and so on ...)

    I doubt the ammounts DSAndi wrote there about the 8-20k for each refugee is correct at least I doubt that is how much they actually get while it is possible that they cost this ammound as there needs to be healthcare, a place to life, furniture, food and water and whatever the daily needs are plus at least jobless people get a TV and even a Computer for free as this is supposed to be "necessary" and the minimum you should have nowadays ... so if they also all get a nice big flat tv and a medicore computer including a monitor and internet connection as well as a smartphone it might be possible to be that expensive.



    P.S. If I would be a politician I would try to stop tax wasting as much as possible and maybe even higher the tax for a short while till most if not all debts are repaid and after that I would lower the taxes to a minimum and have everyone life in prosperity .... sadly it won't happen and our children will have to pay the debt that we and our parents made :(
     
    Last edited by Youkai, Aug 19, 2019
  4. ut2k4master

    ut2k4master Lord Tourettes

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    the 19% would be of the remaining 53%, not of the total 100%, so its nowhere near 70%
     
  5. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Other than a few wackaloon types do people want to pay for people that snuck in?

    I said that in response to the OP, hence why it came before the quoted part of your post.

    Why don't people need welfare or planned parenthood? Not starving or becoming homeless should you not be able to find a job in short order or otherwise be unable to work and being able to control when you have kids (a rather expensive, energy and time consuming hobby, and if you get landed with one at the wrong time then it tends to mess up or seriously delay abilities to later do the education or saving bit) seem like reasonable things to have.

    There are certain fields where geometry is less applicable but it does help if my plumber, builder and carpenter (trades are in don't you know?) know such things, and also helps their customers know when they are ripping them off or more able to ask. Similarly I would have thought area covered or amount of border trim needed is a fairly useful skill when assessing a grass cutting job, or planning flower beds.
    With regards to being unable to spell or utilise proper grammar that sounds more like a failure of implementation than concept.
     
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  6. Youkai

    Youkai Demon

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    huh ? I think you are making a mistake here ... you are paying 19% from what is left for everything you buy so it does actually stack ... it is only "less" if you save the money instead of spending it as well as if you buy stuff which has the consumers tax excemption ... I think meat only has 9% same as Water if I am not mistaken.

    To make it easy lets say its 20 instead of 19 and 50 instead of 47

    you earn 1000€ and they take 20% income tax you have 800€ left - 50% of the other taxes you have 400€ left
    other way araound you have 1000€ they take 50% you have 500 left then deduche another 20% and you still have 400€ left ... no difference.

    If you don't use the whole rest to buy stuff you don't pay consumers tax BUT nowadays lots of Banks like the "sparkasse" want money to savely store your money which sucks so bad (punitive interest) instead of getting an Interest of 3-4% from them you have to pay them if you put money on your bank account -.-V

    okay looks like I made a mistake here oO
     
    Last edited by Youkai, Aug 19, 2019
  7. WeedZ

    WeedZ Possibly an Enlightened Being

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    Hes saying it's not 70% (20+50), which taken from 1000 leaves only 300
     
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  8. LonelyPhantom

    LonelyPhantom Acceleration Prophet

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    Encarta Mind Maze (Circa 1995).
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  9. brickmii82

    brickmii82 GBAtemp Maniac

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    I feel there's over-taxation in this country (USA) and a lot of wasteful spending. I wouldn't even mind a flat 25-40% income tax, but don't tax sales and services at 10-20% on top of that. You have such a large amount of money that gets thrown at trivialities, doomed ideas, and buddy politics. There's room to improve and become substantially more cost-effective in our use of tax revenue.
     
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  10. sarkwalvein

    sarkwalvein There's hope for a Xenosaga port.

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    He is right.
    If you earn net A€, and take x% of taxes, then you get B€ left.
    Then, if you spend all B€ with a y% MwSt tax, then you're wasting and additional B€*y% in taxes.

    In short, the total taxes you pay are:
    A€* x% + B€*y% =
    A€* x% + (A€-A€*x%)*y% =
    A€* (x% + (100% - x%)*y%)

    So, if you have x% = 47% and y% = 19%
    Then the total tax is not 66% (x%+y%)
    But 57%, i.e. (x% + (100% - x%)*y%)
     
    Last edited by sarkwalvein, Aug 19, 2019
  11. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

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    Other countries also deal with disabled workers and people that refuse to work, and do a much better job of caring for both. I already gave you data showing that illegal immigrants pay a lot in taxes.

    That's a local Fox affiliate, and they link to several different sources throughout the article, not just CNN. Like I said, the only reason this type of increase is controversial is because minimum wage hasn't been keeping pace with productivity and inflation over the years. Keeping it at an unsustainable low level is not an option, since we're stuck with full-time workers who also have to rely on welfare as things stand now.

    As I said, the cost of goods is not tied to the cost of labor, especially considering we get a lot of our goods from overseas. If you have to raise your prices slightly, that's a price most customers will be happy to pay if their wages go up and we're investing tax dollars back into education, healthcare, etc for the working class.

    They cannot avoid a capital gains tax. It's impossible to forecast an economic model if we're starting with the assumption that everybody in America is a grifter who will find a way to avoid paying all taxes, so it's best not to go down that rabbit hole.

    We subsidize sugar, corn, and big oil among several other industries. None of these corporations are in any danger of going bankrupt, so it's absolutely asinine to continue giving away our tax dollars to them.

    As for the politicians and policies, it's less about incompetence and more about the system of quid pro quo among neoconservatives/neoliberals and their lobbyist donors. They still require ignorant voters to support them in order to retain office, however. The entire scam relies upon people in the middle/lower class believing themselves to be "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" rather than accepting their actual station in life. In the modern day, there's a lot more upward mobility in Canada and elsewhere than there is in the US.
     
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  12. chrisrlink

    chrisrlink Intel Pentium III Hamster inside

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    it sortta has to do with income tax but basicly people can't work on SSI if you make over $63/month you get your check slashed (and by a big amount) how are you suppose to get off SSI with no room to make money I thought SSI was to be an assist to not using it eventually not a pacifier you can instantly take away with how rent/food/utilities are basicly your screwed if you work part time even meanwhile that damn 1% rich assholes (our fat ass in chief included) pay virtually nothing while low income are scared they'll starve next week and it's funny how most middle class republicans are morons thinking they'll help the middle class? next time check your tax returns and you'll see the truth
     
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  13. morvoran

    morvoran Trump supporter

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    It may be a local Fox affiliate, but that means nothing as Fox affiliates are not strictly biased to one side. The "different sources" include websites from berkeley, democrats, and Seattle's own website. Not exactly moderate sources.

    Try taking a couple accounting and macroeconomic courses and maybe a business course, then get back to me on this.
    Those people who have jobs and rely on welfare need to look at their personal spending and where they live. If they can't afford the way of life they choose, maybe they need to change things in their life or get a second job. Even I have had to get temp jobs every once in a while to keep up with my current lifestyle since the revenue from my business fluctuates throughout the year.

    Thanks to democrat tax policies forcing all our manufacturing to move to other countries. Fortunately, our great President is bringing those jobs back. Cost of labor does affect the price of goods. If a company's expenses go up, such as labor costs, where are they going to get the money to cover those new expenses? From food stamps? No, they have to eventually raise the price of their goods to cover the cost. A lot of bigger companies can sustain an increase in costs for a small time, but they will always end up hurting them in the long run. The bigger the company, the longer they can withstand the raised costs.

    Not if they eventually end up being in the same hole they were in before the price increase. You're talking about inflation, which is not good. Then you will have people asking for $30/hr, then $40, then $50. Why not just start paying everybody $100/hr? I bet that sounds good to you, right?

    Tax dollars invested into education, healthcare, etc won't matter if there is no longer a working class since robots will eventually be a whole lot cheaper than humans.

    They don't have to deal with as many burdens on their taxes like we do. Illegal immigrants aliens pay sales taxes, but not nearly enough to pay for the "subsidies" or welfare we provide them to break our laws. We can't tax their incomes if they are paid under the table. More taxes out then taxes brought in.

    This is mostly a bipartisan issue on how our taxes are spent. Funny, you didn't include "neoleftists" or "neodemocrats" in your post. I wonder why that is, hmmm?
     
  14. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

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    There are no sources on this topic which are right-wing enough to satisfy you. I can't change that, but the numbers are what they are regardless.

    A full-time job at $7.25/hour is not enough to support a family no matter how frugal you might be. This is simply shifting the blame away from where it rightly belongs. If you're going to complain about people receiving welfare, then you shouldn't be in support of giving tax dollars to corporations who underpay their employees.

    This is unfiltered bullshit. Corporations will always choose the cheapest option when it comes to manufacturing, it doesn't matter who controls the presidency or congress.

    I didn't say the cost of goods would be completely unaffected, I said it doesn't go up at the same rate as the cost of labor. If your average worker has 2x the amount of disposable income, and the cost of goods is raised by 1.25x, spending will still increase and profits will still increase. Like I said though, a lot of goods come from overseas, and the price of those doesn't need to go up at all. Not to mention corporations have been posting record profits for several years consecutively, it's clear that they aren't paying employees anything close to wages commensurable with their productivity.

    I'm talking about wages keeping pace with inflation and productivity, which they haven't been for 30-40 years now. Without a strong working class, the economy remains unstable, to say the least. Which is why we're due for another recession soon.

    At which point we'll have to have a different discussion about UBI, because a consumer economy collapses if the consumers no longer have any income.

    The estimates of the cost of government assistance used by illegal immigrants vary wildly. If we want concrete numbers on how much they contribute vs how much they consume, we'll have to overhaul the immigration system and provide a path to citizenship. Or otherwise at least make it easier immigrate legally.

    Umm, neoliberals almost all vote Democrat, just as neoconservatives almost all vote Republican. I didn't use the term "neorightist" either, because I don't think that's really a thing.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Aug 20, 2019
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  15. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

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    Your hypothetical well earning homeless person that doesn’t ever buy food but spends all their money amuses me.
    There’s no VAT on rent and basic necessities are taxed at a reduced rate of 7%.

    Generally speaking I would say taxes should be as minimal as possible, however, I would include welfare and education into the bare necessities.
    One problem I see here is that the welfare payments equate to a very different standard of living depending on region, while you would be living in poverty in the south, you would be able to make ends meet in Berlin for example (Berlin is by far the cheapest capitol in the EU to live in).
    We're also offereing training for long term unemployed people and one thing I've seen happen over and over is that the people who sign up for the training just don't show up and don't give a shit and the private companies who offer the training are basically allowing the trainees to have other trainees sign in for presence so they can cash the government check for the people who sign up and stop showing up after a while. For Perspective: the training I'm talking about is a Microsoft training where the courses total over 15,000€ for a regular person and it's a 5 week course, unemployed people get this course paid for and get trained for 9 months instead of 5 weeks, so I assume it's much more expensive as well.

    I don't subscribe to the notion that people on welfare are just lazy, I have seen way too many people that I wouldn't trust to operate a broom, people that for some reason can't grow up and take responsibility, people whose highest priorities are their hobbies instead of families or work and they like to convince themselves that something is wrong with them and that it's not themselves who are holding them back. Overall I believe these people will often cause more issues in the workforce for everyone involved and in my experience these kind people often feel like they're getting bullied at work because their colleagues are fed up with their incompetence and will let them know. I don't have a problem with them living on welfare if they so chose. A regular person will want to have purpose in life and would rather work a low skill, low paying job than sitting around home doing nothing at all.

    With regards to spending there’s a lot of things to consider when comparing the US to any EU country. As far as I’m aware France is the only country that meets the NATO requirements of spending 2% of the GDP, Sweden is only paying 1%, I wouldn’t blame anyone who said we’re freeloading off of the US‘ military spending.
     
  16. morvoran

    morvoran Trump supporter

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    I would prefer sources that are independent and do not lean extremely to the left or right. What would you think if I sent you a news story from Breitbart News? Would you agree with what they claim? Of course not. CNN and Breightbart are not "reliable" sources because they lean too far both ways and will only cherry pick the parts of reports that fit their narrative.

    To summarize this whole "Taxes: justifiable or not", it all depends on your ideology. If you are democrat, you feel that they are justified as long as they take care of the needy and keep them needy. To republicans, taxes are necessary for infrastructure and security.

    To break it down further----

    Democrats: Throw money at problems without actually fixing the issues. Politicians will pocket the rest.
    Democratic Socialist: Everyone needs to pay most of their money into taxes because you didn't earn that money fairly if one person earns less than you. Spread it out among the poor and illegals. Politicians will pocket the rest.
    Libertarians: Taxes are not fair and nobody should pay into them. Just give the money to me.
    Republicans: Take taxes to (re)build infrastructure and secure the nation. Police the world to spread democracy to keep our country safe from others. Help people out in hard times, but not forever. Politicians will keep the rest.

    That should sum things up for everyone.
     
  17. LonelyPhantom

    LonelyPhantom Acceleration Prophet

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    Encarta Mind Maze (Circa 1995).
    Libertarian could go either way (If they are genuinely interested in State Sovereignty that is). My answer up above is far more nuanced for example (each state shares the military yet is otherwise responsible for their own infrastructure, policies, etc). Of course, I was not always as nuanced or understanding of others for that matter 8-9 years ago when I first dived into the "Rabbit Hole" of American Politics and discovered there was an actual name for my type of alignment. I guess the point I am trying to make is that, yes, while Libertarian-ism is very Individualism oriented, it does not necessarily have to come from a bad place; for example, among other ideals, I identify as a Libertarian because I do not want to control others nor do I want to control how other's live their own lives nor do I claim to know how to operate their lives better (like how modern politicians have essentially designated themselves the nannies of Civilization).
     
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  18. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    I can't think of a functional system of government that can exist without some form of what's effectively taxation. That alone justifies the use of taxes, as long as citizens have some sort of say.
     
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  19. IncredulousP
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    IncredulousP GBAtemp Fan

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    A post-scarcity, money-free society wouldn't need taxes.
     
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  20. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    I thought of mentioning a society living in a state of abundance a la Star Trek where money doesn't exist, let alone taxes, but I didn't think it needed to be addressed.

    Even in a state of abundance though, taxes are going to exist in one form or another if currency still exists among the people. We'd have to eliminate currency entirely, which isn't realistic anytime soon.
     
    Last edited by Lacius, Aug 25, 2019
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