Supercard DSTWO "No Game Inserted" on DSi XL 1.4.1U?

Discussion in 'Supercard' started by shady586, May 5, 2011.

  1. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    Just bought the DSi XL Limited Red Edition with system version 1.4.1U and a Supercard DSTWO and put both the latest EOS v1.11 and Firmware v1.09 on my 4GB PNY Class 4 MicroSD card and also tried it on a SanDisk 2GB SD card and all I get is "There is no game cart inserted" message no matter what.

    I followed the steps and I even replaced that system1l.dat and also system1.dat both separately and formatted in between each attempt and even did it a third time replacing both files. All in the _dstwo root folder of course and it still doesn't work.

    Now I'm reading on here and everything is saying to use a DS Lite to get this thing working after I already spent $40 for it? There was no indication that this may be the case when you're shelling out $40 for it. You might think it would be nice to not tell people it works on DSi XL if it requires you to have a totally different system just to use it.

    Please tell me there's a method to fixing this without an older DS system. Not only do I not know anyone with one but I'm certainly not buying a $130 system just to fix a $40 card. I also doubt any stores will allow me to stick some flash cart into their DS because even though it may not cause any harm I am willing to bet they will consider it not "kosher" and say no. If there isn't a fix I guess it's time to return this thing and get one that actually works out of the box or has a USB cable to eliminate problems like this.

    If anyone can help I would be greatly appreciative. I was so excited about this thing and I bought a DSi specifically to use the DSTWO and all I got was frustration out of it.
     


  2. Schlupi

    Member Schlupi Gbatemp's Official Earthbound Maniac™

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    It's possibly a contact issue.

    Try cleaning the contacts for the card with a Qtip coated in rubbing alcohol (NOT HYDROGEN PEROXIDE), and drying it. THEN try the cart again.

    Then get back to us.
     
  3. 8BitWalugi

    Member 8BitWalugi Taiyohhhhhh!

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    If that doesn't work, you might have a faulty cart. I got one, and I had to buy a new one.

    Off-topic: Schlupi, wanna exchange 3DS FC's?
     
  4. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    The DSTWO is brand new and I just opened it today. The DSi XL is brand new also and I just got it yesterday. So dirty contacts seems to be a bit unlikely. They are shiny and clean.

    Something tells me I'm going to be forced to find a DS Lite just to get this damn thing to work. If that is the case I'm going to send it back and get a different card. The CycloDS iEvolution seems to have a UFO dongle that lets you update the flash cart with your PC via USB so you won't ever need a DS system to do updates.. is that correct?

    I really wanted this DSTWO to work... but I'm at the end of my rope with this thing. I see all these videos on YouTube showing someone making it work on a DSi XL without a DS lite by simply replacing one of the .DAT system files in the _dstwo folder and I did exactly that and it didn't work.

    I'm using EOS v1.11 and DSTWO Firmware 1.09 so my SD Card looks like this:
    ----------------------
    _dstwo
     
  5. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    I think I know what the issue is. When examining the contacts on the DSTWO it looks like they are never making a connection with the DSi game slot contacts. When I even check my brand new Mario Kart DS that came with the system it even has the marks on the contacts already and it's only been inserted maybe 1-2 times.

    There is however a line that looks like a scratch on the left most contact when you are looking at the back of the DSTWO. It's not that bad but I'm not sure if this was there when I got it or was created by me putting a piece of electrical tape on the label side of the DSTWO in attempt to try and see if I can make the contacts meet.

    So yea... the tape idea isn't working. I tried placing the tape on the label side near the bottom and the top and I've had no luck with either. The contacts still don't seem to be meeting. It's clearly the horrible design of these newer DSTWO chips.
     
  6. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    *EDIT - Not sure why it double posted.... sorry
     
  7. Buleste

    Member Buleste Old Fart

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    Dirty contacts can be an issue as sometimes there is residue from the manufacturing process left on the card so trying a Q-Tip and some Isopropyl Alcohol is always worth a try.
     
  8. Evo.lve

    Member Evo.lve All that you could be.

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    Also, the no DS Lite thing isn't your problem. The DS2 uses its onboard processor to flash itself.
     
  9. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    I've heard all about that it supposedly updates itself just from using the power from the game card slot. But how do you know it's updating if the system doesn't even recognize that there's a game in the slot? Wouldn't it need to know there's a game inside in order for the DS to send power to the slot? If it is updating how long does the update take... should I wait 15 minutes after turning the DS on or something? It seems very confusing if you ask me.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the DSTWO at least supposed to be recognized and the actual issue of not updating it to 1.09 is that when you run the "Fish Tycoon" it gives you an error until you update? It would seem that the DSTWO not being recognized at all is either a defective flash cart or a poor design.

    Someone on the DSTWO forums suggested that maybe REALHOTSTUFF sells an older version of the DSTWO which isn't updated yet? I did see on some other sites that they list the DSTWO as "Supercard DSTWO 3DS" and state it's compatible with 1.4.1U whereas RHS doesn't state that and just calls it DSTWO with no monicker at the end.

    I contacted RHS and their answer to my issue was that it's defective and want me to send it in for a replacement. I'm just a little skeptical that maybe they don't know enough and I'm going to wait a whole week for the return process and replacement only to find that it doesn't work again.

    I ordered a M3i Zero Sakura to hold me over until I can get a working DSTWO. Mostly because it has an external method to flash the bootstrap rather than needing a DS system at all. But I wanted DSTWO for the GBA and SNES emulation otherwise I wouldn't care.

    Any suggestions other than cleaning the contacts that I should try before I return this thing for a replacement?
     
  10. Terminator02

    Member Terminator02 ヽ( 。 ヮ゚)ノ

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    cancel the M3i Zero order, get an Acekard 2i
     
  11. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    I've heard all about the whole M3i stealing from Acekard bit. Thing is the purpose of getting it was to have the ability to flash the firmware via USB and not need a system at all. It's only temporary so I'll pass on the Acekard.

    That is what causes half the issues these things have to begin with. Keep the firmware updates on the computer and the DS for playing games and homebrew. That's my 2 cents. That's how it works with flashing cellphones and that's why it's almost impossible to brick a cellphone if you follow the instructions of a Cooked ROM.

    Flashing in the hardware that is designed to combat these flash carts is just stupid. That's my only gripe about the DSTWO. But I'll put up with it to get GBA emulation on my XL.


    *EDIT: By the way... if you look above this thread at the advertisement for DSTWO at shoptemp... the icon photo of the DSTWO box is different than mine. Mine just says "DSTWO" in sort of army paint lettering that's gray and white. It doesn't have those circles around the "O" in DSTWO like that box does. Although the chip itself looks pretty much similar except maybe the coloring of the text. The text on my cart is silverish and shiny and that shows orange.

    Could it be I got an older version from RealHotStuff? Maybe since they are in NJ they are the last to get the carts since they all come from overseas
     
  12. pcmantinker

    Newcomer pcmantinker Advanced Member

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    I am unaware of a second hardware release of the DSTWO so I doubt that the box has anything to do with the hardware itself. I believe that silver that you are seeing is the glare of the light on the DSTWO's glossy black label. I had an issue with my first DSTWO bricking after a few days of use on my 3DS. It wouldn't even show up on my DS Lite so I confirmed that my first DSTWO is indeed dead. I ordered from RHS and received my second DSTWO this week and it has been running fine on my 3DS. It came with the latest firmware 1.09 that is confirmed to work on the 3DS and I didn't have to do any manual updates.

    When you get your new DSTWO, it will most likely come flashed with the latest update. You probably won't have to do another DSTWO update until the next DSi update.
     
  13. rave420

    Member rave420 GBAtemp Regular

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    The M3i Zero does NOT use USB to flash it's memory.

    The usb cable is a simple power supply supplying external power to the card.
    You can do this with ANY card that needs a voltage to flash itself.

    Just find the DC contacts, and rig native power to it. Badaboom, your card is flashed.
     
  14. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    Not to be a smart a** or anything but your basically saying "you can do this with any card" but yet the solution is taking apart the card and rigging up some power setup with sketchy wires just to do it. The M3i simply updates the core by plugging the USB cable right into the port on it and waiting for the LED to stop flashing. So not only did I get an indicator that something was actually happening and completed successfully but it took less than 15 seconds. I know how flashing the bootstrap works as I mess with a lot of custom cooked ROMs with my droid. My point was that the Supercard DSTWO is supposed to power itself off the DS game slot and using the system itself to do updates is not smart in my opinion and is clearly the cause of most of the issues with DSTWO I see on these forums. Nintendo is aware of these carts and actively trying to block them so I would think it's risking your cart being bricked in some way.

    It's clear that Supercard realized this benefit with their DSONE card which has a bootstrap dongle. So why they opted out of this for DSTWO is beyond me as it's way more convenient! Trust me I've been reading into why my DSTWO doesn't work and I've been coming across more and more people saying it doesn't work on their DSi XL lately. I found 3 people who bought from RHS all within the past few weeks just like me and another guy who got it from shoptemp and they all had the same problems.

    Oh and I know the DSTWO is reigned as the best cart and all that... but I just received my M3i Zero Sakura today and I had it up and running in literally 30 seconds. Downloaded the Core & System files onto my MicroSD, tossed it into the flash cart, plugged the USB bootstrap wire in and it flashed in 15 seconds. Popped it in my DSi XL and it immediately recognized it and I've been playing DS games all day today. It does what I wanted it to do and even though it doesn't have GBA emulation it's honestly not that big of a deal. It does all the same crap the DSTWO does as far as I see. At least stuff that I care about... not really going to go deep into the homebrew stuff.

    So I think there's a bit of biased opinion out there when it comes to these cards. Also, I actually found the build quality of this cart way better than the DSTWO. The DSTWO is two flimsy pieces of plastic held together by a watch screw on one single side. When I was taking it out of the package the thing already started splitting apart just from the small force of taking it out of that egg carton thing.

    The M3i Zero Sakura is practically built like a genuine DS cartridge and has tiny clips on both sides holding it firmly together. The MicroSD slot seems easier to slide the card into also. I don't have to dig what's left of my nail into the slot to push the SD card down on the spring load like I do with the DSTWO.

    HOWEVER - I am in the process of getting a replacement on the DSTWO and hopefully it will work when I get a new one. If so, I'll have both carts and use DSTWO when I want to play GBA games. If it doesn't work then I'm just going to get a refund.

    I can vouch for the M3i Zero (GMP-Z003) and say that it's built extremely well and I got it working on my DSi XL in 30 seconds with no hassle without any DS Lite or any DS system whatsoever!

    Thanks to all those who responded. The help is appreciated.
     
  15. Terminator02

    Member Terminator02 ヽ( 。 ヮ゚)ノ

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    Well considering you've barely used the DSTWO, if at all, you really cannot say that the M3i Zero does the same stuff. The DSTWO has advantages in commercial ROMs as well as homebrew, you have the real time guides, slow motion, save states, on the fly cheat selection, and you never have to patch any game as it will automatically work with it.

    The DSTWO requires no flashing at all (except for the 3ds), and you're saying the M3i Zero is easier to set up?
    you got a defective cart, you're getting it replaced, and now you're bashing on it?

    just push down the SD card from the side, it's really not that hard

    however i do agree that the DSTWO's build quality sucks
     
  16. Sicklyboy

    Global Moderator Sicklyboy Resident Mechanical Keyboard Addict

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    Everything has a biased opinion. But dont ignore the fact that many of us have had other carts before the SCDS2 as it is fairly recent. SCDS2 may not have the best build quality in the world, but it certainly feels more legit then any other cart ive seen. The plastic almost feels like an original cart, and it LOOKS nice with only the screw. M3 carts feel cheap and thin with their plastic, and if you need to take the cart apart (broken SD spring) the clips BREAK easily. How the hell do you pry it open while removing it? You're supposed to press on the bottom of the tray >_> And, if it works when you get the replacement, you've spent more money then you needed to and bought something that will lose support within the year (M3i).

    Let me state again that my first flashcart was an iTouchDS RTS. Card was decent for what it could do at the time, but rapidly became outdated. M3 is and always was slow to release updates for it, lagging way behind any other cart (except the R4, lol). RTS was good on it, that's about it. Yet to see a single ROM where slowdown worked on it. From what I have heard, M3i is no exception, and the GMP-Z003 tanked due to the blocking of custom firmwares. I know where I am coming from with everything that I have said (with the exception of the DSiXL vs DSi fw).
     
  17. shady586
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    Newcomer shady586 Member

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    Wow speak about a touchy subject. You guys are clearly way more serious about these things than I am. Do you usually attack people who don't praise the DSTWO? How much are they paying you? I simply stated my opinion which I have a right to. No offense but $30 is really not a big deal to me so I hardly "wasted my money" on anything. I also have seen the DSTWO enough to know what it does and how it works. Having the physical thing in front of me doesn't make it any different. I've watched a handful of YT videos and reviews on all of the cards before making the decision as I do with all my purchases. So you can pretend you have some secret experience because you actually physically turned the thing on with your DSi and I didn't.

    I still have the DSTWO and I put in a request for a replacement. I said I would use the M3i FOR NOW until I get a DSTWO working. You should also take a better look around unless you want me to link you multiple forum posts all within the past few weeks where people can't get the DSTWO to work without someone suggesting a solution of "finding a DS Lite system". That whole prospect is absurd considering if a product claims it's compatible with a DSi XL then you shouldn't have to attempt to convince some store owner to let you stick a foreign flash cart into their store owned system. This has been the solution on EVERY thread.

    Maybe you guys stock up on systems for some odd reason but as far as my purchases with consoles go I either trade or sell the old system towards the new one. Isn't that what the whole concept of backwards compatibility was designed for? So you could ditch the earlier version?

    The M3i is working GREAT for what I wanted to do so I really don't care. No matter how much you correct miniscule useless facts it doesn't make you right. Power wire... bootstrap wire... call it what you will. As for the build quality the DSTWO does not resemble a genuine cart at all. Go compare it to a cart and you'll see just how flimsy it is. The screw you are praising is only on ONE side so it doesn't even keep the thing together. Like I said it was already coming apart when I took it out of the box. You may also not realize that I have the newer M3i GMP-Z003 which is a way better design than the old one from what I can see from the photos. You also must have pretty long fingernails if you consider putting the sd card into the DSTWO a "simple push". Since it doesn't sit flush I have to carefully look closely and use the very tip of my finger nail and push down without hitting the front half of the cart where the opening begins otherwise my finger would get caught on it. The M3i I can actually just push the top of the SD card and it falls right in with no issue. It's hard to describe but if you own the DSTWO and are honest you'll know what I'm talking about.

    As for your claims about the time it took it certainly did take 30 seconds to get the M3i working. I took it out of the package and I already had the Core and System downloaded and transferred to my SD card before it even arrived because I was expecting it. I popped the SD card in the flash cart and it flashed in less than 10 seconds. Popped it into my DSi XL and I was playing DS games immediately. Why would I lie about how many seconds it took to get the thing working? I mean, wow, you really are reaching to discredit the M3i.

    Oh and if you actually read what I said I said myself that the DSTWO uses the power from the game slot to power the CPU and flash itself. My point when saying that "using the system to update" is I feel it's a bad idea to have to use the console to flash it whatsoever which is my OPINION. God forbid anyone has an opinion that differs from yours. Just because they claim it's safe doesn't mean it's safe. You do realize that Nintendo has programmers too that are probably way more sophisticated then some guys tossing together a flash cart. If they wanted to find a way to take advantage of the fact that one of the most popular game carts uses the game slot to power itself during updates then I'm sure they could. You can disagree if you'd like but that doesn't make you right.

    Anyways, the M3i has been working great and I've been playing DS games for these past 2 days without any issues. Not only does it have all of those features you listed that the DSTWO has but I've never had to patch any of the games I've played and everything I have is a newer game and the most popular ones at that. I've had no glitching and everything runs just as well as the original. The only thing it doesn't have is GBA emulation built in because of the lack of CPU. You can still play GBA games if you have an older DS system with a Slot 2. Not to mention I was playing GBA games on my Droid X using a Wii mote anyway so I didn't really NEED the GBA emulation. The only reason I liked the idea of having GBA emulation on the DSi was because of the built in controls obviously.

    All in all the M3i is working great so far and I don't see why anyone should be discouraged from using it. As for you making all these claims that it's been "abandoned" I'm pretty sure the latest updates to the Core and System were all within April 2011. The last update to the DSTWO firmware hasn't been since MARCH and the system's last update was towards the end of April. So you should really check into your information before you spread disinformation because it starts to credit the idea that you guys are DSTWO marks.

    That's my 2 cents. I know what works and what doesn't. If the DSTWO works as easily as the M3i did when I receive the replacement then I will re-evaluate my opinion. Until then I'm pretty sure the word "defect" is just an easier way of covering up a general bad build quality. I've seen a ridiculous amount of threads where people are saying DSTWO is known for having issues with the contacts meeting the game slot. To where people suggest putting electrical tape on the card and shoving objects in with it just to make it work. So why are you covering up the apparent issues with this card? It seems more to me that people are forgetting the common issues just because it has a few features the other cards don't and is the most popular.
     
  18. Sicklyboy

    Global Moderator Sicklyboy Resident Mechanical Keyboard Addict

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    Bout to go to sleep so making a few quick replies...

    I suppose you could say we take it seriously because we enjoy this stuff.

    Nobody said you don't have a right to an opinion. But in my eyes, you seem to have jumped to conclusions and also don't seem to know what you're talking about as much as we do.

    Some of us keep legacy systems due to the features removed in newer ones. The DSi (and up) can't play GBA games, DS Lite can. Guess who kept their DS Lite when they got a 3DS? 360 can't play some old Xbox games, kept my xbox. PS3 can no longer play PS2 games, so if you sold your PS2 you're screwed out of those games. PSP Go can't play UMD's, so there goes all the UMD's you have.

    M3i doesn't have nearly all the features that the DS2 has, regardless of what you want to believe.

    DS2 looks closer to a real cart to me than any others I have seen. Not saying M3i Zero doesn't, but based off of my iTouchDS, the tabs ruin the look. And I have had zero problem with my DSTWO holding together with the screw unless I did try to pry it apart. So maybe yours just WAS defective.

    Was gonna say something bout the DS2 updating but too tired to remember.

    M3i Zero is running games well now because the FW is fairly recent, I presume. But when a game with better AP comes out, DS2 will be playing it before your M3i, most likely. Discouraged from using it because they made a useless hardware revision that further tarnished their already diminishing reputation because it blocked unofficial FW. iTouchDS/iTouchDS 2 site was down for around about all of April (surprised it's actually back up now). But they've had a track record of abandoning their carts and having painfully slow updates.

    Main concern though: http://www.realhotstuff.com/acekard-2i-p-319.html - 2/3 the price and a better card. Why the M3i then?

    And no, we don't have stock in any cart company. We don't get paid to sit here and bitch and argue and discuss. But if you drove a car that you LOVED, you'd try to promote it to all your friends and family, no? "Wow, this car is FANTASTIC! You GOTTA get one." Same goes for us and flash carts. We know what's good, and we promote it because it deserves that kind of recognition.
     
  19. Buleste

    Member Buleste Old Fart

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    The fact that your DSi cannot recognise that your SCDS2 is not inserted IS NOT anything to do with the SCDS2 firmware because even if it had the old firmware on it the DSi would still be able to recognise that the card is inserted. Your issue is either a contact issue or a busted SCDS2. If you had another DS/DSi you could test if the issue is a busted SCDS2.

    The DSi XL is notorious for not recognising flashcards being inserted. I have read no end of people saying they've got a flashcard that works in other DS's but is never recognised in an XL. There is no specific solution. Sometimes inserting the flashcard whilst the XL is on works, sometimes the paper trick works.

    Having said that yes the SCDS2 has more issues with contacts not because of build quality (yes the build quality of the case is poor but the build quality of the actual card inside is fine) but because it is fatter than standard carts and this can sometimes cause issue with some DS/DSi's (although mostly DSi XL's).

    BTW the reason the SCDS2 hasn't had a sytem update for a month and a half is it doesn't need updating as often as other cards because it runs 99.9% of games without the need of a system update so it only gets updated when someone finds that 0.1% of games.
     
  20. jurassicplayer

    Member jurassicplayer Completionist Themer

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    Now I really don't quite care which one you prefer or anyone else for that matter (hell I want an M3 just because the UI is a smexy MS2 derivative...and that is pretty much the ONLY derivative I don't have yet...so anyone reading this and want to give me one for free...), BUT because these posts are freakishly long, I felt like posting.

    The concept of backwards compatibility isn't necessarily so you can ditch the older console. More like, it's not REQUIRED that you have a certain system to play a certain older game...though it can't really apply to those sort of changes like with the DSLite and DSi...they got rid of it completely with that one. Anyways, this part is irrelevant to what I was going to reply, but I thought I'd say my thoughts on this one while I was here.

    Moving on, the DSTWO's build quality IS somewhat lame with it's single screw in the corner and I'm betting that the M3iZero has a better quality (probably fits nicer too, the DSTWO has a bulge to fit the extras), but all flashcarts resemble commercial carts in my opinion, though there may be slight differences about the teething, the fact that there is a microSD slot, there may or may not be a notch on the side, etc.

    The SCTeam opted for the console flashing approach because the console is a lot more reliant and standard than the various computers and other viable options for plugging a usb into that may or may not be providing the correct voltage to the flashcart. Also, no other flashcart team follows the M3 teams way of flashing because the cable is extremely flimsy, excess parts are easier to lose, and IIRC the tip of the cable might actually snap since it's thin and doesn't exactly have a perfect fit. So, although there may not be a guarantee that Nintendo decides to do a check before anything, there also isn't a guarantee that the cable that comes with the M3 will have the expected results, and in fact there have been various reports about the cable not working as well, though admittedly the M3 also can flash the firmware while being in the console by some people.

    Disregarding the GBA emulation, the DSTWO actually has a more stable way of handling RTS and Slow Motion that is much more reliable than any of the current flashcarts (not that I really care about them...I don't use them) and the current state of it's game compatibility is somewhat of a hit and miss. The official kernels have been fixing some games and breaking others (and not just breaking game compatibility, but also other system things such as cheats among other hindering things) as of late.

    I would not say that people should be discouraged from using it, but I would definitely not recommend it to someone who doesn't care for eye candy since the team HAS been putting forth kernels that break as much as they fix and the game compatibility is notably less than flashcarts like the Acekard, DSTWO, iEvo, etc...I suppose among other things, the Acekard is a fair amount cheaper as well with higher game compatibility, and a much higher chance of working with newly dumped games. As for the rate of updates, the DSTWO doesn't require as many updates because it already works with the latest games and doesn't need any updates (what would they update if it already works?). It's not that we all have a preference towards an expensive flashcart, it's just that everyone in the M3 section realizes the flaws of their flashcart and various other users who have both an M3iZero and DSTWO can attest that the DSTWO is a better flashcart overall in terms of what they were for. Please be sure to actually research on what the other M3 users have to say about the various updates and their overall opinion of the flashcarts themselves before deciding that the speed of updates amounts to anything because it starts to credit the idea that you are a M3iZero mark.

    As for the contact issues, I personally haven't had any with my DSTWO, though my Acekard does need it (the casing seems to be falling apart on that one)...There aren't very main complaints about it either from what I see in the section (where are you looking? Hopefully not the supercard forums...that place is nuts...you have people asking about R4 clones there and other random whatnot). The flashcart known for having connections problems is of course the Acekard so maybe you mixed the two?

    In any case, whatever works for you...well I don't really care...whatever works for others...I don't really care either...BUT I know that the M3 team is declining with the quality of their updates and various other bits of information about the M3iZero (because I still want one) and really in terms of game compatibility, it's exceeded by others, in terms of pricing, it's exceeded by others (as in there are cheaper ones with better compatibility), in terms of extra feature stability, it's exceeded by others, in terms of the UI, I'd say it's exceeded by the iSmart Premium (fishshell2 kernel), and in terms of build quality, it's better than some of the popular flashcarts, but it's still not the best anyways...All in all, at least it works. It might be subpar in everything but the build (and smexy UI), but at least it works. Tons of current and former M3iZero GMP z003 users might voice out how it sucks and they don't like it, but at least it works. The bottom line, at least it works...just like the flashcart clones that also work, and the N5 that could possibly blow a fuse in your DS (yes, the N5 actually DOES work). All flashcarts work pretty easily. You dump the files provided on a flashcart, you provide power to the flashcart in some way to flash it (if it's a DSi one anyways), and provided there isn't something wrong with the flashcart, it works.

    :/...as a side note...generally I don't see any perk to the DSTWO aside from the fact that it has mediocre gimmicks attached to it...which is usually why I don't argue for the DSTWO when there are other things available...but even comparing the M3 to a TTDS...I would say that the TTDS might last a little longer with RGF's updates than the M3 team will with the current updates they are tossing at people.
     

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