Socialised medical care?

[Pliskron]

That"s why people from all over the world who can afford it come to the US for treatment. It's the private sector that delivers the best health care and that why the US leads the world in drug development. Also why does the government even need to be involved where 90% of people like the health care they have. The government can have a roll in providing for the few poor that slip through the cracks.

Alright, let me ask you this. Same question just in a different way. Imagine if tomorrow when you woke up you had a letter in the post that said that at no extra cost to you your insurance now covered every single citizen in your country. It wasn't going to cost you any more money and your health care costs wouldn't change but someone who couldn't afford it would be covered, would you be against that?

I would say it's a lie. he fact is that nothing is free. You'll end up paying more in higher taxes over the long hall than you would if you and you employer provide for your own heath care. Whatever the government does it does inefficiently and at a very high cost. Do you want the same government that runs the department of motor vehicles to run health care? I want the government to stay out of my life and choices as much as possible. There are great solutions to health care cost that don't involve government intrusion like high deductible plans, portability, and buying across state lines. All and all I'm sick of the government, I'm sick of taxes, I don't trust it, they've bankrupt this country and the still want to take more and more and all we have to show for 14 trillion in debt is a hand full of beans,

I'd also like to ad that I don't want government bureaucrat between myself and my doctor. Don't you have that NICE board in the UK that says you don't get cancer treatment or that hip replacement because you're too old? My grandmother is 95 years old and last year she spent six months is hospital. If we had nationalized health care I don't think they would have spent the money to treat and save her. I'm thankful she's still we us and I'm thankful for the private health care system that made it possible..

 

[TrolleyDave]

I would say it's a lie. he fact is that nothing is free. You'll end up paying more in higher taxes over the long hall than you would if you and you employer provide for your own heath care. Whatever the government does it does inefficiently and at a very high cost. Do you want the same government that runs the department of motor vehicles to run health care? I want the government to stay out of my life and choices as much as possible. There are great solutions to health care cost that don't involve government intrusion like high deductible plans, portability, and buying across state lines. All and all I'm sick of the government, I'm sick of taxes, I don't trust it, they've bankrupt this country and the still want to take more and more and all we have to show for 14 trillion in debt is a hand full of beans,

Alright, I see where you're coming from. But just for one second suspend all that disbelief. Imagine you live in some imaginary country that could afford it and it would be no extra burden on you. Everything would stay exactly the same but tomorrow morning when you wake up everybody in the USA is covered because you have medical insurance. It's still in the hands of private companies and nothing changes for you apart from the fact that someone who needs medical attention but can't afford insurance is also covered. Would you be against that idea? Would be against someone else be covered because of your money?

 

[Pliskron]

I would say it's a lie. he fact is that nothing is free. You'll end up paying more in higher taxes over the long hall than you would if you and you employer provide for your own heath care. Whatever the government does it does inefficiently and at a very high cost. Do you want the same government that runs the department of motor vehicles to run health care? I want the government to stay out of my life and choices as much as possible. There are great solutions to health care cost that don't involve government intrusion like high deductible plans, portability, and buying across state lines. All and all I'm sick of the government, I'm sick of taxes, I don't trust it, they've bankrupt this country and the still want to take more and more and all we have to show for 14 trillion in debt is a hand full of beans,

Alright, I see where you're coming from. But just for one second suspend all that disbelief. Imagine you live in some imaginary country that could afford it and it would be no extra burden on you. Everything would stay exactly the same but tomorrow morning when you wake up everybody in the USA is covered because you have medical insurance. It's still in the hands of private companies and nothing changes for you apart from the fact that someone who needs medical attention but can't afford insurance is also covered. Would you be against that idea? Would be against someone else be covered because of your money?

Oh I'm for government safety nets. I think that's where government can play an effective roll. i'll gladly pay my fair share to provide health care for vaccinations, treatments for children with cancer, the old the infirm. We have medicare and medicaid services. Everyone is pretty much covered already and I'd gladly pay to see anyone that slips through the cracks be provided for but I think the roll of government should be kept as narrow as possible. I just don't want a one size fits all gigantic single payer system lorded over by a bunch of corrupt bureaucrats making my health care decisions is where I want to go.

 

[TrolleyDave]

Oh I'm for government safety nets. I think that's where government can play an effective roll. i'll gladly pay my fair share to provide health care for vaccinations, treatments for children with cancer, the old the infirm. We have medicare and medicaid services. Everyone is pretty much covered already and I'd gladly pay to see anyone that slips through the cracks be provided for but I think the roll of government should be kept as narrow as possible. I just don't want a one size fits all gigantic single payer system lorded over by a bunch of corrupt bureaucrats making my health care decisions is where I want to go.

Ok nice one cheers, that's exactly the info I'm looking for. It's not that you're against the principle it's that you're against the idea of it. Like I said, it's mostly peoples idea on having it in their country that most interests me. And like I say it's just to satisfy some curiosity so I'm not gonna lecture you on it. lol

 

[nando]

I'd also like to ad that I don't want government bureaucrat between myself and my doctor. Don't you have that NICE board in the UK that says you don't get cancer treatment or that hip replacement because you're too old? My grandmother is 95 years old and last year she spent six months is hospital. If we had nationalized health care I don't think they would have spent the money to treat and save her. I'm thankful she's still we us and I'm thankful for the private health care system that made it possible..

do you think bureaucrats only exist in government? haven't you heard about claims officers who get rewarded for rejecting treatments for their clients? private insurers are ran by such people that decide weather you get treatment or not, they'll investigate you and look for loop holes to deny you so they can make more money.

and unless your grandma is pretty wealthy, i don't see how she can be 95 and not be on medicare. have you found out how much 6 months in the hospital cost her? i'd like to know because paying my 350 dollars a month for my insurance if i spend more than 5 days in the hospital every day after that costs 1200 dollars out of my pocket, and that's if i end up in one of the few associated hospitals with my insurance. i can't imagine it getting cheaper as you get older because it doesn't.

 

[Blood Fetish]

When you privatize health care there are amazing costs to society, even though you may not directly see them. Every poor person unable to afford the disgusting medical bills get added to the middle-class' premiums. This is the reason why an ambulance ride costs well over $1,000. This is the reason why the bare minimum doctor visit costs hundreds of dollars. The cost of privatized health care to all of society is staggering.

 

[Sterling]

When you privatize health care there are amazing costs to society, even though you may not directly see them. Every poor person unable to afford the disgusting medical bills get added to the middle-class' premiums. This is the reason why an ambulance ride costs well over $1,000. This is the reason why the bare minimum doctor visit costs hundreds of dollars. The cost of privatized health care to all of society is staggering.

What are you talking about? Government is part of society. Government owes it's existence to it's people. In fact, one of the Founding Fathers, Alexander Hamilton, saw to it that the rich support the government. He wanted a permanent National Debt as to ensure a permanent interest in keeping the Government afloat. Since human nature will never be taken out of the equation, a pure socialist society will never work in the long run. The idea is sound, but the gears in moving the idea forward are flawed. I will never support a socialist single payer system (Because humans are easily corruptible, and this is why socialism never works) . Which is just a pretty name for the population paying the government to pay their healthcare bills. Which BTW last time I checked 307 million people is not one payer, it's 307 million payers. I agree with everything Pliskron has said. In a society where you have bouts of gain and loss, you learn responsibility, and how to take care of yourself, and your family. Take away privatization, and insert big government, people rely less on themselves, and more on government. Which in my opinion leads to stupidity, and less desire to question a government's actions. Also, Hamilton's ideas in the past never accounted for the MASSIVE DEBT we have here and now. I bet he is rolling over in his grave every time the exact dollar amount in debt we have is spoken of.

 

[Densetsu]

Hey Trolley, long time no chat! I haven't posted in forever, but as a US med student and future physician, this topic is just too relevant for me not to post in.

If you want a good picture about the current state of health care in the US, I would recommend you watch Money-Driven Medicine. Their official website is here, and you can see it on YouTube. Granted, this documentary is about a year old, and there have been some small changes to the US health care system since it was made. But those changes really haven't done much so the documentary is still pertinent.

Although we are among one of the most advanced countries in the field of emergency care, we're far behind the others in preventative care, which is what the majority of people need.

The whole socialism=evil BS comes from US propaganda against Cuba during the Cold War. Socialized medical care seems to work much better than the mess of a system we Americans have. Anyone who says we have the best health care in the world is very, very badly misinformed. The privatized system we currently have in place in the US is unsustainable. There's just not enough money to keep it going for much longer. It's not a question of whether it will crash, only a matter of when. The only thing in the US more expensive than health care is war. Other countries accomplish so much more on just a fraction of the cost.

I agree with everything Pliskron has said. In a society where you have bouts of gain and loss, you learn responsibility, and how to take care of yourself, and your family. Take away privatization, and insert big government, people rely less on themselves, and more on government. Which in my opinion leads to stupidity, and less desire to question a government's actions.

Tell that to the Brits. They have socialized medicine, but somehow I doubt they have any less desire to question their government's actions. On the contrary, in my experience with people from the UK, I've found that college students from there are much more active in politics than American twenty-somethings. Not only that, but they seem to know more about what's going on in world politics than the average American college student.

Would you privatize our fire departments? What about all of our public schools? We already have a lot of socialized institutions in place in the US. I don't understand what all the opposition to socialized health care is about. But privatized health care is definitely not the answer.

Ugh, I would love to talk more about it but I gotta study.

 

[VashTS]

i would like that right now, i just got served about a medical bill. i am going to have to pay about $3,600 in total.

i am a working, contributing citizen. there are these pieces of fucking shit that sit around all day and do nothing and get free fucking health care. i can't fucking stand it...i am almost ready to leave this country. the usa sucks for health care and just the treatment of their citizens.

MY emergency room visits should be of no cost, these poor pieces of scum that milk the system should OWE every cent they have gotten. I have already paid more that what i got in services to the government.

 

[Depravo]

The trick is to convince the US population that free healthcare is their RIGHT. They'll fucking fight for it then.

 

[Sterling]

The trick is to convince the US population that free healthcare is their RIGHT. They'll fucking fight for it then.

But therein lies the problem. It is not a right. As a American, you are entitled to the pursuit of happiness. If you get sick, you have to take your own initiative to get better. If that means a trip to the doctor, or to the local pharmacy, then that is your problem. I am not against Health Care reform, in fact I want it. The first thing that has happened that I agree with is that health care providers can't deny you. That is the first step. The next step is not a question of what the government will do for you, but what it should do. Safety nets as Pliskron has said is one. If you look in the case of Medicare/aid you'll see that they will be bankrupt in the next decade or so. That needs a major overhaul. In the next few years, I foresee more health care reform, but I will do everything in my power as a voting citizen to make sure the US stays out of a single payer system.

@Densetsu: I didn't specifically specify socialized healthcare as the problem. I am saying the more you let the government in, the less the average masses will question the actions. You cannot deny that the voting generation today is a bunch of uneducated degenerates. They would rather be spoon fed, than lift the spoon themselves. This is why there is all this "new" reform going about. All this targets this new emerging voting class, and in actuality most of this stuff has been through congress before in one shape or another. Bill Clinton's healthcare reform bill is an example. If you let Big Brother in, you cannot get him out. While you and I are above average citizens, the masses of new voters are the sort of people that either:
1. Were brainwashed by their parents
2. Or, they want to do as little work as they possibly can.
So you see, we are a dying breed of people who would think for themselves.

 

[GreatCrippler]

Socialized medicine is wonderful... in theory. In practice, it's a terrible idea that can't be effectively paid for. Leaving it to the private sector is also a disaster. People are greedy. People will always be greedy. There is no easy answer for people's well being. The best we can do is keep it into a competitive market. You give people the option of affordable insurance that actually works. You certainly don't force it on them. Emergency care should be given regardless of financial position. (Supposed to be that way in the U.S. but sit for 8 hours in an ER lobby, and tell me they're doing everything they can.) In the end, countries with socialized medicine are happy because they get to go to the doctor for free. In the U.S. we see how poor the care is by comparison, and don't want it. You have a flawed system looking at another flawed system. For better or worse, people feel screwed.

 

[Veho]

In the end, countries with socialized medicine are happy because they get to go to the doctor for free. In the U.S. we see how poor the care is by comparison, and don't want it.

Do you really? Where exactly have you seen how socialised healthcare works, and the quality of such healthcare, that you can claim it's "worse" than what you're getting? Insurance commercials? What you "see" is your local free hospitals that barely manage to get by on whatever pathetic little funding they can get.

 

[GreatCrippler]

I'm from northern Minnesota, and lived in Germany. I have seen first hand the Canadian, and German Health care systems. I will take the U.S. System any day of the week over those. A 6 month waiting list for sub-par care? No thanks.

 

[Veho]

A 6 month waiting list for sub-par care?

I'm surprised you're still alive.

 

[GreatCrippler]

A 6 month waiting list for sub-par care?

I'm surprised you're still alive.

Appreciate the concern for my well-being.

 

[trumpet-205]

We really should have socialized medical care. Believe it or not in United States our medical bills are so inflated. It cost three to five times more to do a heart transplant here than to do it in Japan. Main reason behind this is corruption. You have corruption in government, insurance companies, hospital director, and even doctors. We need socialized medical care to compete with these insurance companies. Only competition can drive the cost down.

We can no longer rely on government to impose restriction on insurance, seeing that every single one is corrupted.

 

[Veho]

Appreciate the concern for my well-being.

Well you seem to be constantly plagued by various ailments, I can't help but feel some concern.

 

[emigre]

WHO's ranking of the best health systems of the world

I've always been pro-universal healthcare. The idea that the quality of care, you get is set in accordance to your wealth is just morally repulsive.

 

[Sterling]

WHO's ranking of the best health systems of the world

I've always been pro-universal healthcare. The idea that the quality of care, you get is set in accordance to your wealth is just morally repulsive.

That chart is also 10 years out of date. Also due to the extreme complexity of the task, they have stopped making such charts. I wouldn't trust that chart as far as I could travel back in time.