The first SNES core has been released for the Analogue Pocket, an FPGA based handheld (read our review here).

The core is an early port of the original MiSTer core created by srg320. While most games are playable, there are some limitations such as lack of support for PAL titles, certain Super Nintendo expansion chips used by specific games and ROM header limitations. Developer agg23 has stated that support can be improved in the future but requires several new features from Analogue to be implemented in order to do so.

SNES 0.1.0 for #AnaloguePocket now available. Go get it from https://t.co/0FNlQHGe2U

Supports SA-1, SFX, S-DD1, CX4, and standard ROMs. No PAL support yet. Two player support via the Dock (four player coming soon). pic.twitter.com/yNezHWk0sf

— Adam Gastineau (@iam_agg) September 16, 2022

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Github page

 

[tech3475]

Will I be able to install the Metaverse on this?

Yes, but to install it you have to sacrifice your soul to Mark Zuckerberg in a ceremony performed on an Oculus Quest 2.

 

[Kioku]

I don't even think the latency argument is right. Here is the latency of some original consoles :

View attachment 327563

And hereis the latency of several SBC :

View attachment 327564

The difference in latency is negligible to null.

33.5 to 49 is neglible? If you think so, then you are part of the "casual" crowd Shaun referenced. Also, what are the numbers outside of the average? What your examples don't show is the difference in latency between each device emulated on the SBC?

 

[RAHelllord]

How much better is this compared to simply using a PSVITA? In terms of accuracy, at least, since pricing is stupid.

Vita will probably be slightly more accurate until the core has been fully tested and whatnot, though it will likely surpass the Vita in rather short order.

Yeah this device doesnt highlight advantages over cheaper stuff. Probably mister level fpgas are more apoarent since they show better analog output support, multiple controller type support and very low latency. These are all enthusiast level imo. Typical emulaters run well enough for most folks

The biggest advantage for me personally is the screen, as it's the best display on any handheld currently on the market, and by a pretty big margin.

It's 10 times the resolution of an original DMG (1600x1440) and thus is able to make incredibly crisp images by default, or use very gorgeous screen filters to replicate the look of the original displays. Beyond that it's really just portable, supports real cartridges, all accessories (some need modification to make them physically fit, like the e-reader or GC - GBA adapter cable), special cartridges like rumble or tilt, and so forth.

It's a very high quality clone, more like a reimplementation but that's splitting hairs, of a gameboy, that also plays other games either via adapter or now FPGA emulation loading roms off of the MicroSD.

Oh, and this core also supports multiplayer already when it's docked, with multi-tap support coming later.

 

[tatumanu]

Dream come true! An FPGA portable Snes.

 

[Rune]

People often debate whether this device is worth it, and I think it entirely comes down to what other devices you currently own.
Should you buy this if you want to play original carts and have a IPS modded DMG, GBC or GBA? IMO no.
Should you buy this if you want to play roms and own a open source handheld like one of those Anbernic ones? If you just want to play games from various different consoles without the cart, then IMO no.

I own a DE10-Nano, and I'm always lurking the Mister discord server, and you tend to find that Mister users usually spend more time tinkering with this stuff than actually playing the games. If you're only interested in actually playing the games and just consuming the game library from these consoles, then the accuracy that FPGA emulation gives you isnt that important IMO.

 

[RAHelllord]

People often debate whether this device is worth it, and I think it entirely comes down to what other devices you currently own.
Should you buy this if you want to play original carts and have a IPS modded DMG, GBC or GBA? IMO no.
Should you buy this if you want to play roms and own a open source handheld like one of those Anbernic ones? If you just want to play games from various different consoles without the cart, then IMO no.

I own a DE10-Nano, and I'm always lurking the Mister discord server, and you tend to find that Mister users usually spend more time tinkering with this stuff than actually playing the games. If you're only interested in actually playing the games and just consuming the game library from these consoles, then the accuracy that FPGA emulation gives you isnt that important IMO.

Analogue devices do have the advantage that they are very plug and play like the real consoles, with only a few quality of life settings exposed to the user. If you want the potentially best accuracy with the lowest amount of latency possible, and not worry about modding an original console to support HDMI out, then FPGA is worth a look.
After that it's just deciding whether you like plug and play more or tinkering with it. For the former it'd be Analogue that serves the niche best, and for the latter the Mister project.

 

[pedro702]

i wonder if they ever make an fpga n64 will it retail for 1000$? well im fine playing my emulators on new 3ds or psp or switch if i want portable or wiiu if i want home gaming.

 

[FAST6191]

Forgot to link last time
https://web.archive.org/web/2007020...ocketheaven.com/SNES_games_with_special_chips
List of SNES games that use special chips for those pondering things, though it appears to be less of an issue here.

i wonder if they ever make an fpga n64 will it retail for 1000$? well im fine playing my emulators on new 3ds or psp or switch if i want portable or wiiu if i want home gaming.

I have not seen them yet, though if it were to be done today it would probably be quite expensive.

The usual cycle (and while I hesitate to use the word usual with FPGA stuff it has been enough years now) is we will see something done on a high end dev board by someone working with them, an enthusiastic hacker (few thousand on a FPGA dev kit is within the realms of enthusiasts, particularly if you can actually program one in anger) or someone in a university that is using them for a project. Somewhere in there someone will probably decap a CPU (and for the n64 probably the RDP as well https://www.retroreversing.com/n64rdp ) but it is not strictly necessary, though can accelerate things. After that then we might see one repurposed from something else

You may also recognise the name from various hacking scenes. https://debugmo.de/2008/03/thank-you-datel/
or one made for not so portable devices (making it all battery powered is a project in and of itself, though this could change as some do also change). Only then would I expect portables to get a look in. Somewhere in the mix will also be fixes for certain problem chips, modchips of notable scope and ability (in this case probably bypass some graphics concerns), some in hardware debugging, expansion replication (don't know if we will see a N64DD a la https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-upc...h-cart-with-onboard-megacd-recreation.542791/ but it is the sort of thing I would be looking out for).

The FPGA market is quite odd and subject to all sorts of oddities. Bitcoin changed things for a minute but then everything went for ASICs*, low latency/high frequency wall street trading types bought them and were taught to program them (silliness ensued) when it became apparent they were very good for that (and then sold them on when they were done for next to nothing compared to what they were), they are quite often found in consumer devices that get recycled which changes things for some hackers. Similarly the makers of such things made things a bit easier in recent years, as well as dropping the power draw somewhat.
I do however have to also note the N64 is more a niche device than many others tackled -- it was a failure at the time and while some enthusiasts have sprung up in the years since then... yeah. Of course said enthusiasts have driven the prices sky high which is a thing to consider in this.

*which could be an option here as well -- there are firms that for a not unreasonable amount of money will turn your FPGA code into silicon. Given the original N64 CPU was 350nm then quite reasonable to expect something even better for this (custom firms won't do modern Intel/Nvidia/AMD sort of levels but rather smaller than that).

Others playing along at home then this video illustrates some of the trials and tribulations of making a N64 mini, many of which will bleed over into the development of this though others get dodged


Others still more of the "what is an FPGA?" persuasion wanting a bit more depth than it is a programmable chip then eevblog is good stuff

 

[Rune]

Analogue devices do have the advantage that they are very plug and play like the real consoles, with only a few quality of life settings exposed to the user. If you want the potentially best accuracy with the lowest amount of latency possible, and not worry about modding an original console to support HDMI out, then FPGA is worth a look.
After that it's just deciding whether you like plug and play more or tinkering with it. For the former it'd be Analogue that serves the niche best, and for the latter the Mister project.

But what I dont understand is that if this is aimed at casuals who just want something simple and "plug and play", then arent these the same people who wouldnt appreciate the differences between FPGA emulation and software emulation?
I feel like its just fooling people with marketing. Like when casuals are sold TVs with "4K" and "HDR" and "contrast ratios" because they're told its better, but none of them truly understand what any of that means. And yes, it does make the TV better to those that understand it and appreciate it. But these casuals might as well have been lied to, and they probably still would have bought the TV anyway.
The Mister project makes a lot of sense to me, since its for tinkerers, and its these same tinkerers that will appreciate what the project brings to the table. Which is why a lot of them dont even use it for the HDMI out. They have it hooked up to a CRT or custom built arcade cabinets, and use SNAC adaptors to use the original controllers with zero latency.
Which BTW is funny since AFAIK, the Analogue Pocket's dock only uses USB ports for third party controllers, which will introduce lag, and now you're back to playing with a device that doesnt exactly have the same latancy as the original hardware. So arguably it might as well have been software emulation at that point.

i wonder if they ever make an fpga n64 will it retail for 1000$? well im fine playing my emulators on new 3ds or psp or switch if i want portable or wiiu if i want home gaming.

There's someone working on a FPGA implementation of the N64, but its on a different device altogether. I dont think its possible on the DE10-Nano, and certainly not on the Analogue Pocket.

 

[RAHelllord]

But what I dont understand is that if this is aimed at casuals who just want something simple and "plug and play", then arent these the same people who wouldnt appreciate the differences between FPGA emulation and software emulation?
I feel like its just fooling people with marketing. Like when casuals are sold TVs with "4K" and "HDR" and "contrast ratios" because they're told its better, but none of them truly understand what any of that means. And yes, it does make the TV better to those that understand it and appreciate it. But these casuals might as well have been lied to, and they probably still would have bought the TV anyway.
The Mister project makes a lot of sense to me, since its for tinkerers, and its these same tinkerers that will appreciate what the project brings to the table. Which is why a lot of them dont even use it for the HDMI out. They have it hooked up to a CRT or custom built arcade cabinets, and use SNAC adaptors to use the original controllers with zero latency.
Which BTW is funny since AFAIK, the Analogue Pocket's dock only uses USB ports for third party controllers, which will introduce lag, and now you're back to playing with a device that doesnt exactly have the same latancy as the original hardware. So arguably it might as well have been software emulation at that point.

It's pretty trivial for a lot of people to tell the difference between input with a classic console connected to a CRT and to a modern TV. That is the baseline Analogue competes with. Their products are compatible with all modern TVs, has low latency (compared to analog input on those modern TVs), and is still lower than running it on PC with the OS often introducing issues when not using a massively fast CPU.
Something like a retrotink or similar and an original console would also work, but at that point you still have to juggle another separate device, and possibly deal with old hardware failing, subpar replacement cables, etc.

All in all Analogue is to Mister what Windows is to linux, you pay for convenience and the assurance that it'll just work without having to do much or know much about the background processes. If you encounter a problem chances are someone else had the same issue already and maybe also posted the exact solution with a step-by-step attached to it.
With the Mister you better know as much as possible so you can more easily diagnose the problem yourself, it's a lot less plug and play until you're familiar with it.

I'm not entirely sure about the Dock's latency with USB, but I believe they don't use a USB host chip inside, instead opting to have the FPGA handle USB inputs directly. Combine that with the 2.4ghz and bluetooth connectivity and you do have a nice variety of convenient and fast enough connection types that the additional latency isn't as bad as it might be on Windows using the same device. At the expense that USB devices have to be manually supported and the list of currently supported devices for any of those connection types is still pretty short...

All that said, I do believe there is a spot for Analogue with enthusiast people that don't want to tinker, that want to be as close to playing their favorite console on a CRT as they can get with their modern TV set, with none of the hassle that analog signals and cables bring to the table. If you want more than that absolutely get a Mister.

 

[pedro702]

But what I dont understand is that if this is aimed at casuals who just want something simple and "plug and play", then arent these the same people who wouldnt appreciate the differences between FPGA emulation and software emulation?
I feel like its just fooling people with marketing. Like when casuals are sold TVs with "4K" and "HDR" and "contrast ratios" because they're told its better, but none of them truly understand what any of that means. And yes, it does make the TV better to those that understand it and appreciate it. But these casuals might as well have been lied to, and they probably still would have bought the TV anyway.
The Mister project makes a lot of sense to me, since its for tinkerers, and its these same tinkerers that will appreciate what the project brings to the table. Which is why a lot of them dont even use it for the HDMI out. They have it hooked up to a CRT or custom built arcade cabinets, and use SNAC adaptors to use the original controllers with zero latency.
Which BTW is funny since AFAIK, the Analogue Pocket's dock only uses USB ports for third party controllers, which will introduce lag, and now you're back to playing with a device that doesnt exactly have the same latancy as the original hardware. So arguably it might as well have been software emulation at that point.


There's someone working on a FPGA implementation of the N64, but its on a different device altogether. I dont think its possible on the DE10-Nano, and certainly not on the Analogue Pocket.

just wondering do games that had lag/performance issues on original hardware still have the exact same issues on fpga devices?

 

[Rune]

It's pretty trivial for a lot of people to tell the difference between input with a classic console connected to a CRT and to a modern TV. That is the baseline Analogue competes with. Their products are compatible with all modern TVs, has low latency (compared to analog input on those modern TVs), and is still lower than running it on PC with the OS often introducing issues when not using a massively fast CPU.
Something like a retrotink or similar and an original console would also work, but at that point you still have to juggle another separate device, and possibly deal with old hardware failing, subpar replacement cables, etc.

All in all Analogue is to Mister what Windows is to linux, you pay for convenience and the assurance that it'll just work without having to do much or know much about the background processes. If you encounter a problem chances are someone else had the same issue already and maybe also posted the exact solution with a step-by-step attached to it.
With the Mister you better know as much as possible so you can more easily diagnose the problem yourself, it's a lot less plug and play until you're familiar with it.

I'm not entirely sure about the Dock's latency with USB, but I believe they don't use a USB host chip inside, instead opting to have the FPGA handle USB inputs directly. Combine that with the 2.4ghz and bluetooth connectivity and you do have a nice variety of convenient and fast enough connection types that the additional latency isn't as bad as it might be on Windows using the same device. At the expense that USB devices have to be manually supported and the list of currently supported devices for any of those connection types is still pretty short...

All that said, I do believe there is a spot for Analogue with enthusiast people that don't want to tinker, that want to be as close to playing their favorite console on a CRT as they can get with their modern TV set, with none of the hassle that analog signals and cables bring to the table. If you want more than that absolutely get a Mister.

I understand the convenience aspect of it. But this goes back to the point of where if convenience matters to you, then you're probably a casual. And if you're a casual, then the software vs FPGA aspect of it wouldnt even really matter to you.

BTW, Im not questioning Analogue as a whole, I'm just talking specifically about the Analogue Pocket.
I think the Super NT and the Mega SG are good products that makes sense to me. If you want a clone SNES or Genesis that plays carts, hooks up to your modern TV, etc, then this is the way to go. Its not even about convenience. Theres a need for the Super NT and Mega SG in the modern world cuz your old consoles dont play nice with your new TVs.
Unless of course you have a handful of consoles you want to play, in which case you'd buy a scaler like the RetroTink since its cheaper to get one scaler to supplement all your existing consoles than to replace each one with a modern recreation.
But if for example you were only interested in the SNES, then you cant go wrong with a Super NT.

On the other hand with the Analogue Pocket, Im trying to understand what kind of scenario would this be your best option. If you want GBC or GBA, and original carts, then surely its better to just IPS mod the original handhelds.
Unlike old consoles, your modern needs with old handhelds are met when you IPS mod them or do a rechargable battery mod. You dont need the Analogue Pocket. At least not for the price you're paying for it. Which is $220 for the Pocket, another $100 for the dock, and also $30 each for the four cartridge adaptors (for Game Gear, Atari Lynx, Neo Geo Pocket, and Turbo Grafix 16). Thats $440 for the full set up, excluding cases, screen protectors, and assuming you're paying MSRP and not scalper prices.

And if you're interested in the FPGA cores and the roms, then isnt it better to get a Anbernic or any other open source handheld since they play far more consoles for a fraction of the cost? A Miyoo Mini costs 1/4 of what a Pocket costs, and it plays anything up to PSX games flawlessly, and has a smaller form factor.

Basically the Analogue Pocket has a few different use cases, but IMO its not the best or cost effective option in any of those scenarios. It sits in this weird middle ground, but is marketted as if its superior to other options just because "its FPGA gaming".

 

[Rune]

just wondering do games that had lag/performance issues on original hardware still have the exact same issues on fpga devices?

Yeah. All original hardware flaws are usually recreated. Its almost a 1:1 copy.
Having said that, some FPGA cores on Mister might implement features like overclocking, which can help to improve this. I wouldnt know if these things would be ported over to the cores released on the Analogue Pocket though.

 

[RAHelllord]

I understand the convenience aspect of it. But this goes back to the point of where if convenience matters to you, then you're probably a casual. And if you're a casual, then the software vs FPGA aspect of it wouldnt even really matter to you.

BTW, Im not questioning Analogue as a whole, I'm just talking specifically about the Analogue Pocket.
I think the Super NT and the Mega SG are good products that makes sense to me. If you want a clone SNES or Genesis that plays carts, hooks up to your modern TV, etc, then this is the way to go. Its not even about convenience. Theres a need for the Super NT and Mega SG in the modern world cuz your old consoles dont play nice with your new TVs.
Unless of course you have a handful of consoles you want to play, in which case you'd buy a scaler like the RetroTink since its cheaper to get one scaler to supplement all your existing consoles than to replace each one with a modern recreation.
But if for example you were only interested in the SNES, then you cant go wrong with a Super NT.

On the other hand with the Analogue Pocket, Im trying to understand what kind of scenario would this be your best option. If you want GBC or GBA, and original carts, then surely its better to just IPS mod the original handhelds.
Unlike old consoles, your modern needs with old handhelds are met when you IPS mod them or do a rechargable battery mod. You dont need the Analogue Pocket. At least not for the price you're paying for it. Which is $220 for the Pocket, another $100 for the dock, and also $30 each for the four cartridge adaptors (for Game Gear, Atari Lynx, Neo Geo Pocket, and Turbo Grafix 16). Thats $440 for the full set up, excluding cases, screen protectors, and assuming you're paying MSRP and not scalper prices.

And if you're interested in the FPGA cores and the roms, then isnt it better to get a Anbernic or any other open source handheld since they play far more consoles for a fraction of the cost? A Miyoo Mini costs 1/4 of what a Pocket costs, and it plays anything up to PSX games flawlessly, and has a smaller form factor.

Basically the Analogue Pocket has a few different use cases, but IMO its not the best or cost effective option in any of those scenarios. It sits in this weird middle ground, but is marketted as if its superior to other options just because "its FPGA gaming".

Ah, then I've misunderstood you. I would still argue that there is definitely a group of people of enthusiasts out there that do care about bringing their experience all around as close to the old days of CRT gaming as possible, with no tinkering required. Mostly because I am one of those, albeit I do prefer to lean slightly more towards real hardware where affordable, then mod the console myself to output rgb and feed that into my retrotink. Some people can't solder, or don't want to spend money for an upgrade chip, so there is still a step there regardless.

For the Pocket in particular it's more that the IPS mods don't reach the level of quality that the Pocket has, and I say that owning the Pocket and an IPS modded AGB and DMG. As the most obvious benefits the Pocket has better color reproduction, higher pixel density allowing better screen filters, the ability to toggle frame blurring (meaning flickering is properly transparent instantly without the artifacting IPS mods have), save state support, ability to use peripherals (printer, camera, link cables, etc), marginally better battery life, better sound output (stereo, very clean, and louder without extra amp).
The ability to just dock it while it's running and directly continue on the TV is also quite nice, add to that that getting a Game Gear, Atari Lynx, Neo Geo Pocket, and Turbo GrafX with an IPS mod will cost far, far more than all the adapters combined, and it's not such a bad deal anymore. The IPS mod for the game gear alone is about $80 before shipping, almost 3 adapters.

If you'd like a metaphor, it's the porsche of handhelds, mostly due to the stellar screen and the ability to use savestates with something that can accept real cartridges and accessories. However, just like a porsche you pay for luxury features that may or may not be relevant. If you don't want any of the features it offers over the competition then it's absolutely wasted money and something cheaper like an Anbernic or Miyoo is 100% the way to go. But for the niche it aims it's the only item on the market (more or less...) that has currently this specific set of features.

 

[FAST6191]

just wondering do games that had lag/performance issues on original hardware still have the exact same issues on fpga devices?

FPGAs are not magic but assuming it is competent FPGA recreation (you can write bad FPGA code just like you can write a bad emulator) then I believe the phrase is bug for bug compatible. Some FPGAs and implementations on them might fix bugs that later revisions might have fixed in turn (though this can get tricky http://bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator/ is not that but a similar idea and some things might expect the unexpected behaviours). https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/gameboy/trouble_specificgame.jsp#megaman for an interesting twist here.

Most things seen emulated by FPGAs are also clock bound at this point rather than more abstract so it is not like later systems that decoupled code from the clock and thus gain performance from overclocking.

 

[pedro702]

FPGAs are not magic but assuming it is competent FPGA recreation (you can write bad FPGA code just like you can write a bad emulator) then I believe the phrase is bug for bug compatible. Some FPGAs and implementations on them might fix bugs that later revisions might have fixed in turn (though this can get tricky http://bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator/ is not that but a similar idea and some things might expect the unexpected behaviours). https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/gameboy/trouble_specificgame.jsp#megaman for an interesting twist here.

Most things seen emulated by FPGAs are also clock bound at this point rather than more abstract so it is not like later systems that decoupled code from the clock and thus gain performance from overclocking.

then that makes n64 fpga very unappealing imo, i played rogue squadron on my real n64 and those frames on the last level were like a slideshow same for turok 3 bosses and many other games, i would take emulation over that for sure.

 

[Rahkeesh]

I don't even think the latency argument is right. Here is the latency of some original consoles :

View attachment 327563

And hereis the latency of several SBC :

I don't even think the latency argument is right. Here is the latency of some original consoles :

View attachment 327563

And hereis the latency of several SBC :

View attachment 327564

The difference in latency is negligible to null.

View attachment 327564

The difference in latency is negligible to null.

It's nearly double compared to the gameboy/advance OGs, the era of systems where the Pocket ends. And games were designed different back then when it was known that input lag was so minimal for the average user.

Yes it's definitely an enthusiast-class difference only, most games play fine under a bit of extra lag, but its still noticable.

 

[SkyDX]

Once cores can utilize screen modes the Pocket will be the perfect handheld device for pre-N64 Nintendo anything!

 

[TripleSMoon]

This console seems to be made exclusively for snobs, the used price is 500 fricking $, with prices at about 1000 for a new one, and people are paying that...just why?

I stay with my AGS101 with flashcard or the many other alternatives for playing the original consoles, thanks, but no thanks.

This is a weird take. The thing retails for $220 ($200 for initial preorders, like mine was) and can still be ordered as such. Scalping exists for tons of electronics right now: Is the PS5 only for snobs too, because you can get a scalped one for $300 above MSRP? That just doesn't make any sense. I've seen takes like this a lot lately, and it feels like weird projection mixed with Sour Grapes.

 

[pedro702]

This is a weird take. The thing retails for $220 ($200 for initial preorders, like mine was) and can still be ordered as such. Scalping exists for tons of electronics right now: Is the PS5 only for snobs too, because you can get a scalped one for $300 above MSRP? That just doesn't make any sense. I've seen takes like this a lot lately, and it feels like weird projection mixed with Sour Grapes.

i think its the way that the ps5 is the only way to play ps5 games while this plays gbc/gba games which you can get another hardware much cheaper to do so, there are alot of options to play those games , while for ps5 games you got none.