They wouldn't just kick out random arabs out of the country. They only kicked out the ones that e were a threat and were valiant. Hell you won't understand since you never lived in struggle. My family even had to leave uzbekistan because of the muslims and the government denied high jobs, we even had to wear the stuff that muslims were so people thought we were muslim.
Like I explained, both sides did things they shouldn't have done. You need to accept that Israel(UN, US and EU too) is partly at fault.
Again, it wasn't the Muslims who caused trouble, but the Arabs. Not all Arabs are Muslim and vice-versa .
Holy. Shit. That is probably the most racist thing I have ever heard from you. That has got to be the saddest post ever.
Do you REALLY think that all whites are Christian? That all Israelis are Jewish? That all athiests are... something? You, my friend, are horribly uneducated.
They wouldn't just kick out random arabs out of the country. They only kicked out the ones that e were a threat and were valiant. Hell you won't understand since you never lived in struggle. My family even had to leave uzbekistan because of the muslims and the government denied high jobs, we even had to wear the stuff that muslims were so people thought we were muslim.
That's a pile of bullshit. In Uzbekistan, rarely does a woman wear hijab, anyone wears casual clothing. What city were you from? I'm from Tashkent. Please don't even talk about struggle, the Russians robbed us of our language that was written in Ottoman script and changed it to Cyrillic, prosecuted Muslims during the communist era and send people like my grandfather to the Soviet Army where they had no business of being there. To this day Karimov (our president) frowns upon Islam and infact put many innocent Muslims into prison accusing them of being terrorists. I highly doubt what you are saying is true, unless you are not from the big cities like Tashkent, Samarqand, Bukhara, Shahrisabz, Uchquduq or Andijon. Even then, it is extremely unlikely that pure Russians or other non Islamic people live outside cities.
Just so everyone knows, Uzbekistan is a secular nation, our state law works independently of religion.
I'm tired of Islamophobia. People like you need to see the truth.
[youtube]JpzFYeC3-ZM[/youtube]
They wouldn't just kick out random arabs out of the country. They only kicked out the ones that e were a threat and were valiant. Hell you won't understand since you never lived in struggle. My family even had to leave uzbekistan because of the muslims and the government denied high jobs, we even had to wear the stuff that muslims were so people thought we were muslim.
That's a pile of bullshit. In Uzbekistan, rarely does a woman wear hijab, anyone wears casual clothing. What city were you from? I'm from Tashkent. Please don't even talk about struggle, the Russians robbed us of our language that was written in Ottoman script and changed it to Cyrillic, prosecuted Muslims during the communist era and send people like my grandfather to the Soviet Army where they had no business of being there. To this day Karimov (our president) frowns upon Islam and infact put many innocent Muslims into prison accusing them of being terrorists. I highly doubt what you are saying is true, unless you are not from the big cities like Tashkent, Samarqand, Bukhara, Shahrisabz, Uchquduq or Andijon. Even then, it is extremely unlikely that pure Russians or other non Islamic people live outside cities.
Just so everyone knows, Uzbekistan is a secular nation, our state law works independently of religion.
Was talking about before ussr. and russia put the country in its feet. Without russia the country would be crap. Russia basically built tashkent. Compare tashkent to cities like bukhara and you will see the difference. Russia have you guys good education. How the hell is samarkand, and bukhara huge cities.. Keeshlak. Plus the Russians put them in there place from turning into a country b like afghanistan.
They wouldn't just kick out random arabs out of the country. They only kicked out the ones that e were a threat and were valiant. Hell you won't understand since you never lived in struggle. My family even had to leave uzbekistan because of the muslims and the government denied high jobs, we even had to wear the stuff that muslims were so people thought we were muslim.
That's a pile of bullshit. In Uzbekistan, rarely does a woman wear hijab, anyone wears casual clothing. What city were you from? I'm from Tashkent. Please don't even talk about struggle, the Russians robbed us of our language that was written in Ottoman script and changed it to Cyrillic, prosecuted Muslims during the communist era and send people like my grandfather to the Soviet Army where they had no business of being there. To this day Karimov (our president) frowns upon Islam and infact put many innocent Muslims into prison accusing them of being terrorists. I highly doubt what you are saying is true, unless you are not from the big cities like Tashkent, Samarqand, Bukhara, Shahrisabz, Uchquduq or Andijon. Even then, it is extremely unlikely that pure Russians or other non Islamic people live outside cities.
Just so everyone knows, Uzbekistan is a secular nation, our state law works independently of religion.
Was talking about before ussr. and russia put the country in its feet. Without russia the country would be crap. Russia basically built tashkent. Compare tashkent to cities like bukhara and you will see the difference. Russia have you guys good education. How the hell is samarkand, and bukhara huge cities.. Keeshlak
Those cities are bigger than the rest. Plus, you don't have any clue how our people are. We are Turkic based people, if you look at all Turkic countries they are all secular. Turkey itself is in NATO infact. We didn't need USSR. Why are you complaining when Russians invading our land and then you are complaining about how we treated you? Our culture was robbed, a lot of our vocabulary is Russian. Some young kids don't even speak Uzbek anymore. Prosperity is not always just in economy my friend. Our people rather die free.
Also don't judge a group of people like that again please, I read your previous post about Arabs and was applauded by your ignorance.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 27 2011, 07:20 AM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 27 2011, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3668367:date=May 27 2011, 01:06 AM:name=pyrmon24)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyrmon24 @ May 27 2011, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It isn't gender inequality. The second women is mostly there as backup for the first on. She only has something to do/say IF the first woman makes a mistake or doesn't know what to say. This is explained by the fact that, until very very recently, women didn't have a role AT ALL in anything that had to do with finances, even concerning themselves! Hell, until the 1960s, Canadian women couldn't buy a car without the signature of their husband. In such societies, of course a women can forget this or that about financial stuff. Now things are slightly different, but not that much. In an Islamic nation, men are expected of paying the bills. A woman shouldn't have to go to work to feed a husband who does nothing. That does not mean women are forbidden from working or taking place in financial or political matters or of making decisions as to how a family's money should be spent. Sorry for not being clearer before, but it was late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, it is gender inequality. What it's saying is that women are mentally deficient enough that there is a high chance that they won't remember all the details, will get nervous and not know what to say and that they need another woman there to "help" them. And by omitting the same rule for men it's saying that men never suffer from this problem. Therefore implying that men are mentally and intellectually superior to women. There are men who would suffer exactly the same problems that women would suffer under the same circumstances, so why not the need for a backup male as well? However you try to explain this away it will always be gender inequality as gender inequality is defined. The whole notion of the 1 man = 2 woman witness in the Sharia is sexist and prejudicial.
And going on about the other things only distracts from the original point and in no way offers proof that women are mentally deficient to the point where they need backup to give witness. All that does is show that as a society we were mistaken in our attitude towards women. Luckily our societies are fluid and morphous. Nothing is set in stone and with effort and understanding it can be changed and corrected. However this isn't the case with an Islamic society as what's in the Qu'ran now is what was and what will always be in the Qu'ran. The Islamic ideology and belief system is set in stone and as it's the "immutable word of God" can not be questioned, judged or corrected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason is mostly biological. In Islam, marrying means, hopefully, starting a family. The very point of marriage is an union between two(or more) people that are in love to make children, ultimate fruit of that love. A woman only being able to be pregnant from on man at a time, having several husbands would be simply pointless. But a man having several wives can get a child from every one of them at the same time. But, again, marrying a second wife requires that your first wife is ok with it and means you must treat them equally, not proffering one over another. Call it inequality if you want, I think it makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For most cultures and societies marrying means starting a family, it's not exclusive to Islam. I totally agree that marriage is a union between two people that are in love. However as far as I'm concerned THAT is the fruit of their love. Having children is a bonus. What you're basically saying is that 2 people who marry but can't conceive shouldn't actually be considered married because the whole point of being married is to have children. The whole point of being married is to show that you love and care for the person you're marrying so much that you want to be considered a union. Marriage stopped being a purely religious ceremony decades ago, or in most modern nations it has anyway.
I totally agree that women can only have one child at a time. However it wouldn't stop a woman with 2 husbands having a child from each of them. All it would mean is that the numbers wouldn't increase at a rapid rate ie. Instead of 4 children born a year it would be 1. So theoretically it wouldn't be pointless because each Man would still be able to have a child or children with the woman he loves. There would still be a solid loving family unit. And unless I'm mistaken that's the whole point of marriage. The only reason to prefer a man with many wives over a woman with many husbands would be because the number of births would be higher. In an already over-populated world wouldn't lower birthrates be a better thing than a rapidly increasing population?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, there are plenty of women who could more than equitable between all of her husbands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Islam teaches that men must care for women. This does not remove them of any right, only that men should be gallant towards women and be the ones to pay. In an Islamic world, men have more financial responsibility(in a marriage). Besides, the half of a man's share thing is really a bare minimum. The deceased can give how much he wants to whomever he wants, but he needs to give these minimum shares.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the time Mohammed wrote (or dictated if you want to get semantic) the Qu'ran that's how society was. However as I've stated before society has moved on from these times. Society is now at a point where women are more than capable of caring for themselves. The whole hunter/gatherer idea of the Male is long gone in modern society. Life in this day age is completely unrecognisable compared to life back then. In this day and age women play an equal role with regards to supporting themselves and their families. I should introduce you to my sister. She looks after her two children, her terminally ill husband, helps out in the local community, helps my parents and much much more. There is no such thing as a gender specific role with regards to the family unit any more, society has progressed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The verses that are linked to the Hijab don't really talk about the Hijab and only a bad interpretation leads to the Hijab. I read them, they don't talk about head coverings.[/b] Unless you feel like reading those verses and deciding for yourself whether they mention the Hijab, you'll have to take my word for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read the verses. When it comes to religion I rarely take anyones word for anything. I've actually read the Qu'ran several times. I haven't had a chance to read all the Hadiths yet, but that's an awful lot of material to work through obviously. Here is one of the verses regarding women's "modesty" and the one most commonly used to support the need for both the Hijab and the Burkha.
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It says that women should not display their beauty and ornaments (ornaments meaning jewellery) except what must ordinarily appear and that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to family members. As the hair is not something that must ordinarily appear in order to carry on with day to day life then it's saying that it must be covered. However, you don't have to take my word for it. Feel free to have a read through the many many many things that Islamic scholars have written on the subject. All Islamic scholars from the Sunni and Shi'ite sects agree that it means the Hijab is a necessary part of the female uniform for Islamic women. Salafi/Wahabbi belief goes further obviously stating that the word veil does indeed refer to a face covering and therefore the Niqab (most people mistake the Niqab for the Burkha in western society) is what women should be wearing. If you read further on in the Qu'ran it states that the Burkha is necessary for Mohammeds wives as they should be completely shielded from the eyes of anyone but Mohammed. Like I say tho, you don't have to take my word for it - there is plenty of scholarly evidence for these things. And as most really devout Muslims say, the average person can not understand or interpret the Qu'ran - you must consult educated scholars for these things and not draw your own conclusions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Never read an Hadith in my life(some quotes from some, but never actual reading) and the Qur'an was completely clear to me. And it's not because a large number think the Hadith are to be used to build the Sharia that they necessarily should. I even remember the Qur'an stating something about the Hadiths not being reliable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Qu'ran is far from completely clear. That's why the Sunnah is necessary and it's also why the Hadith were compiled. I never said that I thought that the Sharia should be built using the Hadith, Islamic scholars themselves state this. Even Mohammed himself admitted that you need the Sunnah along with the Qu'ran in order to follow Islam correctly. If the Qu'ran was complete and clear why the need for the Sunnah? The Qu'ran mentions nothing about the Hadith being unreliable by the way, what it says is that all you need for life is the Qu'ran. However as time progressed it became obvious that the Qu'ran did not hold all the answers and it became harder and harder for Scholars to make judgements using only the Qu'ran. This led to the compilation of the Hadiths. It's another one of the contradictions in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran isn't just a faith and philosophy like most religions are, it is also a totalitarian political regime created by Mohammed. If you really want a better picture of both Islam and Mohammed read the Qu'ran in the correct order rather than the way it was compiled by Uthman. It paints a very different picture.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Abrahamic religions usually include Judaism, Christianity and Islam. At least, that's what the general definition is. Don't know enough about Mohammad to answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That all depends on how you look at it. Most religious studies include the Book of Mormon as part of the monotheistic Abrahamic faiths lineage. It all depends on what faith you are looking at it from. I ask the question because if you include Islam as an official part of the Abrahamic faith it becomes even easier to disprove the god it promotes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, and I do remember seeing something in the Qur'an saying that Adam wasn't the first man but the first man to be evolved enough to receive knowledge by God. And something about evolution too. So I would expect at least some Muslims don't believe that either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Which Qu'ran did you read? It says no such thing. In the Qu'ran it states that Adam was the first human created by God's hand and is a literal story. If I'm not mistaken it was the original Judaic faith that state there were something like 100 generations of man before God breathed conciousness into him creating Adam. Again tho this version of the creation myth has major holes in it. You are right however, there are Muslims that don't believe the Adam and Eve story is literal. I think that's one of the Sufi beliefs. However, believing in evolution or that Adam and Eve weren't literally created by God usually gets you referred to as a Murtad/Apostate/Kufr by mainstream Islamic sects.
So here's one simple proof that the Abrahamic god can't actually exist, this one is using Islam as an example. According to the Qu'ran the stars are used to beautify the heavens and are an adornment from God. These are contained in the lower heavens and the Moon is in their midst.
"He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)"
"Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)"
Now, how close is the moon and how close is the nearest star? Surely the creator of the universe would have known that the nearest star is light years away from us (the Sun) and that the next nearest star is nowhere near the moon.
Or how about the development of a foetus inside the mothers womb.
"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood;
then of that clot We made a lump;
then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh (23:14)"
Surely the creator of the universe would have known that bones don't develop before flesh inside the womb?
Now if the Abrahamic god didn't know these two simple things then surely he couldn't be the creator of universe. It's either that or admit that Mohammed wrote the Qu'ran. If Mohammed wrote the Qu'ran then logic dictates that the Abrahamic god doesn't exist. There are loads more scientific errors in the Qu'ran besides these. The reason I choose these ones is because they're the simplest and most people with the slightest education know the answers without having to do any research.
If you'd like though we can say that Mohammed was a false prophet and that Islam isn't canon in the Abrahamic faith and therefore wasn't really inspired by the Abrahamic god so therefore Islam being incorrect isn't proof that the Abrahamic god doesn't and can't exist?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>The origin of your point,why are there two women witnesses to a single men....are the women mentally deficient....here is the answer:
I would like to know more scientific errors you know that are in the Holy Qur'an.
(I have posted this specially for TrolleyDave....so I am eagerly waiting for his reply) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
Thanks Pyrmon24 for re-posting it.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 26 2011, 10:20 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 26 2011, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, it is gender inequality. What it's saying is that women are mentally deficient enough that there is a high chance that they won't remember all the details, will get nervous and not know what to say and that they need another woman there to "help" them. And by omitting the same rule for men it's saying that men never suffer from this problem. Therefore implying that men are mentally and intellectually superior to women. There are men who would suffer exactly the same problems that women would suffer under the same circumstances, so why not the need for a backup male as well? However you try to explain this away it will always be gender inequality as gender inequality is defined. The whole notion of the 1 man = 2 woman witness in the Sharia is sexist and prejudicial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, there are either two men or one man and two women that must be witnesses. Therefore, men also oblige by the same rule. There needs two women witnesses instead of one man witness because women, especially back then, have generally less knowledge of finances than men. Besides, the two women rule makes sense once you take the risk that one of the women could be married/or will marry the man that was a witness, therefore making her testimony biased.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 26 2011, 10:20 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 26 2011, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For most cultures and societies marrying means starting a family, it's not exclusive to Islam. I totally agree that marriage is a union between two people that are in love. However as far as I'm concerned THAT is the fruit of their love. Having children is a bonus. What you're basically saying is that 2 people who marry but can't conceive shouldn't actually be considered married because the whole point of being married is to have children. The whole point of being married is to show that you love and care for the person you're marrying so much that you want to be considered a union. Marriage stopped being a purely religious ceremony decades ago, or in most modern nations it has anyway.
I totally agree that women can only have one child at a time. However it wouldn't stop a woman with 2 husbands having a child from each of them. All it would mean is that the numbers wouldn't increase at a rapid rate ie. Instead of 4 children born a year it would be 1. So theoretically it wouldn't be pointless because each Man would still be able to have a child or children with the woman he loves. There would still be a solid loving family unit. And unless I'm mistaken that's the whole point of marriage. The only reason to prefer a man with many wives over a woman with many husbands would be because the number of births would be higher. In an already over-populated world wouldn't lower birthrates be a better thing than a rapidly increasing population?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Quran strongly discourages polygamy. Polygamy was a way of life until the Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. It was advocated and practiced by the followers of the previous scriptures. In all the scriptures, the men were allowed to have more than one wife and not vise verse, since the idea of polygamy then was to populate the earth. As we know a woman can be pregnant only once a year even if she is married to four men but one man can have four children in the process at the same time if he is married to four wives. Polygamy was never meant to be abused for sexual pleasure or prove superiority.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 26 2011, 10:20 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 26 2011, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the time Mohammed wrote (or dictated if you want to get semantic) the Qu'ran that's how society was. However as I've stated before society has moved on from these times. Society is now at a point where women are more than capable of caring for themselves. The whole hunter/gatherer idea of the Male is long gone in modern society. Life in this day age is completely unrecognisable compared to life back then. In this day and age women play an equal role with regards to supporting themselves and their families. I should introduce you to my sister. She looks after her two children, her terminally ill husband, helps out in the local community, helps my parents and much much more. There is no such thing as a gender specific role with regards to the family unit any more, society has progressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a common misconception even among the traditional Muslims themselves. The Quran gives the parents total freedom to give their children as much as they see fit even if this means giving the females double what the males would get. The Quran, however, commands that if a will is NOT left, then the estate is distributed in such a manner that the son gets double what the daughter gets. Generally, the son is responsible for a family, while the daughter is taken care of by a husband or her family. However, the Quran recommends in 2:180 that a will shall be left to conform with the specific circumstances of the deceased. For example, if the son is rich and the daughter is poor, one may leave a will giving the daughter everything, or twice as much as the son.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 26 2011, 10:20 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 26 2011, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've read the verses. When it comes to religion I rarely take anyones word for anything. I've actually read the Qu'ran several times. I haven't had a chance to read all the Hadiths yet, but that's an awful lot of material to work through obviously. Here is one of the verses regarding women's "modesty" and the one most commonly used to support the need for both the Hijab and the Burkha.
It says that women should not display their beauty and ornaments (ornaments meaning jewellery) except what must ordinarily appear and that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to family members. As the hair is not something that must ordinarily appear in order to carry on with day to day life then it's saying that it must be covered. However, you don't have to take my word for it. Feel free to have a read through the many many many things that Islamic scholars have written on the subject. All Islamic scholars from the Sunni and Shi'ite sects agree that it means the Hijab is a necessary part of the female uniform for Islamic women. Salafi/Wahabbi belief goes further obviously stating that the word veil does indeed refer to a face covering and therefore the Niqab (most people mistake the Niqab for the Burkha in western society) is what women should be wearing. If you read further on in the Qu'ran it states that the Burkha is necessary for Mohammeds wives as they should be completely shielded from the eyes of anyone but Mohammed. Like I say tho, you don't have to take my word for it - there is plenty of scholarly evidence for these things. And as most really devout Muslims say, the average person can not understand or interpret the Qu'ran - you must consult educated scholars for these things and not draw your own conclusions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is the verse you posted with an addition:
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils(arabic word is khumur) over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31)
The noun khimar (of which khumur is plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women as an ornament (not as hijab to cover their head) before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as an ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her chest was left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's chest is not included in the concept of "what may decently be apparent" of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed. Covering of the head, therefore is not a requirement.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 26 2011, 10:20 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 26 2011, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Qu'ran is far from completely clear. That's why the Sunnah is necessary and it's also why the Hadith were compiled. I never said that I thought that the Sharia should be built using the Hadith, Islamic scholars themselves state this. Even Mohammed himself admitted that you need the Sunnah along with the Qu'ran in order to follow Islam correctly. If the Qu'ran was complete and clear why the need for the Sunnah? The Qu'ran mentions nothing about the Hadith being unreliable by the way, what it says is that all you need for life is the Qu'ran. However as time progressed it became obvious that the Qu'ran did not hold all the answers and it became harder and harder for Scholars to make judgements using only the Qu'ran. This led to the compilation of the Hadiths. It's another one of the contradictions in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran isn't just a faith and philosophy like most religions are, it is also a totalitarian political regime created by Mohammed. If you really want a better picture of both Islam and Mohammed read the Qu'ran in the correct order rather than the way it was compiled by Uthman. It paints a very different picture.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read it several times and there never was an instance in which I found it unclear. I really cannot think of anything that the Quran does not cover. I you could provide an example I would be grateful. And what does the order I read it in change? Contrary to many people, I didn't read the Quran in the regular order, but rather by interest. A "this surah looks interesting, I'll read it" sort off order, thing.
<!--quoteo(post=3668611:date=May 26 2011, 10:20 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 26 2011, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What? Which Qu'ran did you read? It says no such thing. In the Qu'ran it states that Adam was the first human created by God's hand and is a literal story. If I'm not mistaken it was the original Judaic faith that state there were something like 100 generations of man before God breathed conciousness into him creating Adam. Again tho this version of the creation myth has major holes in it. You are right however, there are Muslims that don't believe the Adam and Eve story is literal. I think that's one of the Sufi beliefs. However, believing in evolution or that Adam and Eve weren't literally created by God usually gets you referred to as a Murtad/Apostate/Kufr by mainstream Islamic sects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
“And certainly We created you, THEN We fashioned you, THEN We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam. So they did obeisance except Iblis; he was not of those who did obeisance.”
The particle “Thumma” which means “Then” and which divides the timeline between these three events is indicative of the fact that mankind’s creation was prior to Adam, as is the past tense form “Khalaqnakum” ‘We created you all’ and ‘Sawarnakum’ ‘We shaped you all’. As it is after creation of mankind and after giving it shapes that Adam comes on the scene and not before, therefore it is wrong to conclude that Adam is the first human being.
“What ails you, that you look not for majesty in God, seeing HE CREATED YOU BY STAGES?”
Human creation is not instantaneous like Adam and Eve of the Old Testament but in stages, as per Qur’an.
“And Allah has made you GROW OUT OF THE EARTH AS A GROWTH:”
The above further lends support to the view of stages of creation of humanity and negates the view of an instant creation of man and woman in the garden of Eden.
The above and more verses demonstrate that the Qur’an does not forward the view that mankind came about through Adam and Eve and dictates its own terms on the concept of human creation.
They wouldn't just kick out random arabs out of the country. They only kicked out the ones that e were a threat and were valiant. Hell you won't understand since you never lived in struggle. My family even had to leave uzbekistan because of the muslims and the government denied high jobs, we even had to wear the stuff that muslims were so people thought we were muslim.
That's a pile of bullshit. In Uzbekistan, rarely does a woman wear hijab, anyone wears casual clothing. What city were you from? I'm from Tashkent. Please don't even talk about struggle, the Russians robbed us of our language that was written in Ottoman script and changed it to Cyrillic, prosecuted Muslims during the communist era and send people like my grandfather to the Soviet Army where they had no business of being there. To this day Karimov (our president) frowns upon Islam and infact put many innocent Muslims into prison accusing them of being terrorists. I highly doubt what you are saying is true, unless you are not from the big cities like Tashkent, Samarqand, Bukhara, Shahrisabz, Uchquduq or Andijon. Even then, it is extremely unlikely that pure Russians or other non Islamic people live outside cities.
Just so everyone knows, Uzbekistan is a secular nation, our state law works independently of religion.
Was talking about before ussr. and russia put the country in its feet. Without russia the country would be crap. Russia basically built tashkent. Compare tashkent to cities like bukhara and you will see the difference. Russia have you guys good education. How the hell is samarkand, and bukhara huge cities.. Keeshlak
Those cities are bigger than the rest. Plus, you don't have any clue how our people are. We are Turkic based people, if you look at all Turkic countries they are all secular. Turkey itself is in NATO infact. We didn't need USSR. Why are you complaining when Russians invading our land and then you are complaining about how we treated you? Our culture was robbed, a lot of our vocabulary is Russian. Some young kids don't even speak Uzbek anymore. Prosperity is not always just in economy my friend. Our people rather die free.
Also don't judge a group of people like that again please, I read your previous post about Arabs and was applauded by your ignorance.
Out of no were I got lots of uzbeks in my school most don't even know russian. but yeah I guess your right during the soviet times. My mom only speaks in russian, dad speaks in russian, tajik, he forgot uzbek already.and I can only speak in russian.
Really ? Where is peace ? You should fear from the world ending because the bible warn us about it. look at Noah warned those people like you who wanted to live in peace and see whats happening ? They lost their lives in flood and noah's family survived in the ARK. You gotta to think. Your quote came from the Satan the Devil wanting you in peace until its too late. YOU GOTTA THINK! Wake up and smell the bible. Look at this WORLD.. ALL SIGNS are there and this time it is increase and getting worse.
@chris888222,
No, God will not decide when its ending.. Please stop false about this. Jesus said the world will end which mean Earth itself will not explode or destroy but removed wick system (who? Those people who knows about God but dont bother to pray and serve in the name of God -- Jehovah.. God will bring an armageddon to removed people who is independence from God or they thought they loved God but thats it without doing nothing to serve God include government kingdom will be removed. Government Kingdom is very WICK and full of CORRUPTION!! Hear about 144,000 people go to heaven ? Yes, until 144,000 are finished then you will see.. According to the bible about 144,000. Look it in the google.
First off apologies to both of you. We had family friends staying for the weekend so by the time I had free time I was too tired to give your posts the attention they deserved.
Reply for bsfmtl123 :
<!--quoteo(post=3674907:date=May 30 2011, 10:10 AM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ May 30 2011, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3674907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The origin of your point,why are there two women witnesses to a single men....are the women mentally deficient....here is the answer:
As soon as you said you were going to post videos I knew the exact Zakir Naik videos you were going to use. This is all well and good but what none of this does is take into account Mohammeds own feelings about women. Shall I pull out the various Hadiths that show he thought of women less than favourably? Both you and I know they are there so we'll save a little bit of back and forth. In actuality Mohammed saw 2 womens testimony as being equal to one mans, it's as simple as that. But that's still getting off the point. In the case of this verse it's commonly seen as 2 males being separate independent witnesses. In the case where 2 men cannot be found then it should be 1 man acting as one independent witness and 2 women acting as another independent witness (to make sure their stories correlate).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Why is Polygamy allowed in Islam(It gives the answer why women don't marry more than one man):
One of the rare few Zakir Naik videos that I haven't actually seen. lol I already know why polygamy is allowed in Islam. I've read the explanations, watched videos from other scholars. That's still not that point. In Islam is a woman allowed to marry more than one man if she so chooses? The answer is no. So even if it's rationalised it's still a sign of inequality. It is something the man is permitted to do that the woman isn't. And a little suggestion for you. You should check up on the facts that Zakir Naik likes to use in his speeches, not all of them are always correct.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>This is what Islam teaches about Hijab and why is it important:
I already know the explanation for why the Hijab is important in Islam, again I've watched and read all the information for all the various places. But like I said above, rationalising still doesn't stop it being inequal treatment. Does a man have to cover himself from head to toe leaving only the face and hands showing? The answer is no. Offering all the reasons and all the explanations in the world won't stop it being an inequal rule.
Shall I tell you what the real problem here is. The real problem is the words inequal and inequality. In modern times those words have taken on a negative connotation. So whenever someone hears the word they instantly assume it to mean that someone is criticising something. Islam teaches you that it's perfect, which means there can be no faults. So because of the fact that the words inequal and inequality have taken on a negative meaning then that means using that word when referencing Islam means it might not be perfect, therefore you feel as though someone is attacking it. You should take the words at face value, without any sort of emotion attached to. Once you do that you'll be admit that yes, there is inequality in Islam. It might have it's justifications and excuses for them, but there are still aspects of it that favour the man, there are aspects that favour the woman - Islam is not perfectly equal between the sexes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>As far as Embryology is concerned.....HERE IS A PROOF OF ITS AUTHENTICITY:
Part 1[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEuuLj0GCI[/youtube]
Part 2[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pag3hKMF0pA[/youtube]
</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen those videos before. You should check up on some of the things he says, you might be surprised to find out that he's not told you the entire truth. However, at no point in the video does he explain the stage of embryo development where the foetus is purely skeletal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Anyone who can challenge this Quranic Fact(proved by Science):
Ok, but where in that video does it show where all the stars are that are supposed to be surrounding our Moon? There is one star in our solar system, so it is no more surrounded than we are. And how do you know that Mohammed didn't steal that expansion theory from someone else. There could have been others promoting that idea back then it's just their words were never scribed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to know more scientific errors you know that are in the Holy Qur'an.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll move on to those after we've cleared up the first two. Don't think that just because you were convinced by a video that I would be too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I have posted this specially for TrolleyDave....so I am eagerly waiting for his reply) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
Thanks Pyrmon24 for re-posting it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My apologies, but as I explained above I had family friends staying.
Reply for pyrmon24 :
<!--quoteo(post=3675048:date=May 30 2011, 12:33 PM:name=pyrmon24)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyrmon24 @ May 30 2011, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3675048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, there are either two men or one man and two women that must be witnesses. Therefore, men also oblige by the same rule. There needs two women witnesses instead of one man witness because women, especially back then, have generally less knowledge of finances than men. Besides, the two women rule makes sense once you take the risk that one of the women could be married/or will marry the man that was a witness, therefore making her testimony biased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds reasonable and good. However Mohammed himself stated that two female witnesses are equal to one male because of the deficiency of the womans mind.
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind." - Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826
That's from a Hadith book considered to be quite solid and referenced alot. However you try to spin this as to make it look noble and equal, it's not. I know you're going to say "but the Hadith isn't necessary in Islam" but yes, I'm afraid it is. It's necessary because mainstream Islam denotes it's necessary. It's something both the Sunni and Shi'a Muslims agree upon, they just have problems agreeing on which ones (along with many other things). So that is the reason that there are two female witnesses instead of one man.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Quran strongly discourages polygamy. Polygamy was a way of life until the Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. It was advocated and practiced by the followers of the previous scriptures. In all the scriptures, the men were allowed to have more than one wife and not vise verse, since the idea of polygamy then was to populate the earth. As we know a woman can be pregnant only once a year even if she is married to four men but one man can have four children in the process at the same time if he is married to four wives. Polygamy was never meant to be abused for sexual pleasure or prove superiority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, but is the opposite allowed to happen? The answer is no. So therefore it is inequal treatment. Also, When did I ever say it was used for sexual pleasure or to prove superiority. What I said was that it was an example of inequal treatment towards a woman. To say it's not is redefining the word inequal. Islam does not treat the sexes perfectly equal, to say any different is denying a fact.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a common misconception even among the traditional Muslims themselves. The Quran gives the parents total freedom to give their children as much as they see fit even if this means giving the females double what the males would get. The Quran, however, commands that if a will is NOT left, then the estate is distributed in such a manner that the son gets double what the daughter gets. Generally, the son is responsible for a family, while the daughter is taken care of by a husband or her family. However, the Quran recommends in 2:180 that a will shall be left to conform with the specific circumstances of the deceased. For example, if the son is rich and the daughter is poor, one may leave a will giving the daughter everything, or twice as much as the son.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again you're defending an accusation that wasn't even made. I said that this rule was a case of inequality. Nothing more nothing less. It is not perfectly equal. You cannot say that Islam treats women perfectly equal, because it does not. It may have it's reasons and it's excuses but that still does not stop it from having inequalities. You cannot say that it's perfectly equal any more than you can say any other system is perfectly equal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is the verse you posted with an addition:
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils(arabic word is khumur) over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31)
The noun khimar (of which khumur is plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women as an ornament (not as hijab to cover their head) before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as an ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her chest was left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's chest is not included in the concept of "what may decently be apparent" of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed. Covering of the head, therefore is not a requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I've read all that. Sounds really good doesn't it. But that's not actually Islam. That's a modern interpretation that goes against what Mohammed and his companions taught. There are many many westernised and modern Muslim women who do not wear the Hijab, and I agree that that verse can justify it, however it is not Islamic jurisprudence nor is it what Mohammed taught was the meaning of the verse. Mohammed said women of menstrual age should cover all but their face and their hands. Are you going to say that Mohammed didn't know best about Islam?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read it several times and there never was an instance in which I found it unclear. I really cannot think of anything that the Quran does not cover. I you could provide an example I would be grateful. And what does the order I read it in change? Contrary to many people, I didn't read the Quran in the regular order, but rather by interest. A "this surah looks interesting, I'll read it" sort off order, thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've just pointed out several instances where it was obviously unclear to you as you took the wrong meanings from them. What does the order you read it in change what it says? Well it puts everything in context for a start, so you can see where one verse is referring to another that was recently said. It also shows you how Mohammeds preaching changed from peaceful and accepting to violent and conquering. It also helps you find the abrogated verses easier. And it helps point out some of the dodgy things that Mohammed said that help to show that he was making it up as he went along. Rather than dipping and diving into the Qu'ran because some things look interesting read the whole thing. Once in Uthman order and once in written order. It'll help paint a clearer picture of some of the verses. And I'd also recommend reading more than just the sites that push Islam in a positive way in order to help combat Islamophobia and help it feel more palatable to Westerners. Read the proper Islam. Most modern Westernised Muslims don't follow the same kind of Islam that they do in the Middle East, they're far more liberal. Although in the UK there seems to be a growth in the numbers that want to return to the more conservative Islam.
“And certainly We created you, THEN We fashioned you, THEN We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam. So they did obeisance except Iblis; he was not of those who did obeisance.”
The particle “Thumma” which means “Then” and which divides the timeline between these three events is indicative of the fact that mankind’s creation was prior to Adam, as is the past tense form “Khalaqnakum” ‘We created you all’ and ‘Sawarnakum’ ‘We shaped you all’. As it is after creation of mankind and after giving it shapes that Adam comes on the scene and not before, therefore it is wrong to conclude that Adam is the first human being.
“What ails you, that you look not for majesty in God, seeing HE CREATED YOU BY STAGES?”
Human creation is not instantaneous like Adam and Eve of the Old Testament but in stages, as per Qur’an.
“And Allah has made you GROW OUT OF THE EARTH AS A GROWTH:”
The above further lends support to the view of stages of creation of humanity and negates the view of an instant creation of man and woman in the garden of Eden.
The above and more verses demonstrate that the Qur’an does not forward the view that mankind came about through Adam and Eve and dictates its own terms on the concept of human creation.
ost for TrolleyDave too then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the survey says... "Incorrect". As lots of people like to say to critics of Islam, that's completely out of context. You can take a verse or line out of a huge amount of books and use it to prove things that they had no knowledge or make it seem like it supports things it does not. I can take lines out of the Qu'ran that shows that Apostates are the ones that God guides and Muslims are abandoned by him.
Read this, it'll tell you all about what the stages of Mankinds development was. The "grow out of the earth as a growth" thing is also misquoted in order to attach a scientific fact to it.
<!--quoteo(post=3676210:date=May 31 2011, 04:43 AM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ May 31 2011, 04:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3676210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off apologies to both of you. We had family friends staying for the weekend so by the time I had free time I was too tired to give your posts the attention they deserved.
Reply for bsfmtl123 :
<!--quoteo(post=3674907:date=May 30 2011, 10:10 AM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ May 30 2011, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3674907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The origin of your point,why are there two women witnesses to a single men....are the women mentally deficient....here is the answer:
As soon as you said you were going to post videos I knew the exact Zakir Naik videos you were going to use. This is all well and good but what none of this does is take into account Mohammeds own feelings about women. Shall I pull out the various Hadiths that show he thought of women less than favourably? Both you and I know they are there so we'll save a little bit of back and forth. In actuality Mohammed saw 2 womens testimony as being equal to one mans, it's as simple as that. But that's still getting off the point. In the case of this verse it's commonly seen as 2 males being separate independent witnesses. In the case where 2 men cannot be found then it should be 1 man acting as one independent witness and 2 women acting as another independent witness (to make sure their stories correlate).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Why is Polygamy allowed in Islam(It gives the answer why women don't marry more than one man):
One of the rare few Zakir Naik videos that I haven't actually seen. lol I already know why polygamy is allowed in Islam. I've read the explanations, watched videos from other scholars. That's still not that point. In Islam is a woman allowed to marry more than one man if she so chooses? The answer is no. So even if it's rationalised it's still a sign of inequality. It is something the man is permitted to do that the woman isn't. And a little suggestion for you. You should check up on the facts that Zakir Naik likes to use in his speeches, not all of them are always correct.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>This is what Islam teaches about Hijab and why is it important:
I already know the explanation for why the Hijab is important in Islam, again I've watched and read all the information for all the various places. But like I said above, rationalising still doesn't stop it being inequal treatment. Does a man have to cover himself from head to toe leaving only the face and hands showing? The answer is no. Offering all the reasons and all the explanations in the world won't stop it being an inequal rule.
Shall I tell you what the real problem here is. The real problem is the words inequal and inequality. In modern times those words have taken on a negative connotation. So whenever someone hears the word they instantly assume it to mean that someone is criticising something. Islam teaches you that it's perfect, which means there can be no faults. So because of the fact that the words inequal and inequality have taken on a negative meaning then that means using that word when referencing Islam means it might not be perfect, therefore you feel as though someone is attacking it. You should take the words at face value, without any sort of emotion attached to. Once you do that you'll be admit that yes, there is inequality in Islam. It might have it's justifications and excuses for them, but there are still aspects of it that favour the man, there are aspects that favour the woman - Islam is not perfectly equal between the sexes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>As far as Embryology is concerned.....HERE IS A PROOF OF ITS AUTHENTICITY:
Part 1[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEuuLj0GCI[/youtube]
Part 2[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pag3hKMF0pA[/youtube]
</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen those videos before. You should check up on some of the things he says, you might be surprised to find out that he's not told you the entire truth. However, at no point in the video does he explain the stage of embryo development where the foetus is purely skeletal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Anyone who can challenge this Quranic Fact(proved by Science):
Ok, but where in that video does it show where all the stars are that are supposed to be surrounding our Moon? There is one star in our solar system, so it is no more surrounded than we are. And how do you know that Mohammed didn't steal that expansion theory from someone else. There could have been others promoting that idea back then it's just their words were never scribed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to know more scientific errors you know that are in the Holy Qur'an.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll move on to those after we've cleared up the first two. Don't think that just because you were convinced by a video that I would be too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I have posted this specially for TrolleyDave....so I am eagerly waiting for his reply) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
Thanks Pyrmon24 for re-posting it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My apologies, but as I explained above I had family friends staying.
Reply for pyrmon24 :
<!--quoteo(post=3675048:date=May 30 2011, 12:33 PM:name=pyrmon24)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyrmon24 @ May 30 2011, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3675048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, there are either two men or one man and two women that must be witnesses. Therefore, men also oblige by the same rule. There needs two women witnesses instead of one man witness because women, especially back then, have generally less knowledge of finances than men. Besides, the two women rule makes sense once you take the risk that one of the women could be married/or will marry the man that was a witness, therefore making her testimony biased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds reasonable and good. However Mohammed himself stated that two female witnesses are equal to one male because of the deficiency of the womans mind.
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind." - Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826
That's from a Hadith book considered to be quite solid and referenced alot. However you try to spin this as to make it look noble and equal, it's not. I know you're going to say "but the Hadith isn't necessary in Islam" but yes, I'm afraid it is. It's necessary because mainstream Islam denotes it's necessary. It's something both the Sunni and Shi'a Muslims agree upon, they just have problems agreeing on which ones (along with many other things). So that is the reason that there are two female witnesses instead of one man.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Quran strongly discourages polygamy. Polygamy was a way of life until the Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. It was advocated and practiced by the followers of the previous scriptures. In all the scriptures, the men were allowed to have more than one wife and not vise verse, since the idea of polygamy then was to populate the earth. As we know a woman can be pregnant only once a year even if she is married to four men but one man can have four children in the process at the same time if he is married to four wives. Polygamy was never meant to be abused for sexual pleasure or prove superiority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, but is the opposite allowed to happen? The answer is no. So therefore it is inequal treatment. Also, When did I ever say it was used for sexual pleasure or to prove superiority. What I said was that it was an example of inequal treatment towards a woman. To say it's not is redefining the word inequal. Islam does not treat the sexes perfectly equal, to say any different is denying a fact.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a common misconception even among the traditional Muslims themselves. The Quran gives the parents total freedom to give their children as much as they see fit even if this means giving the females double what the males would get. The Quran, however, commands that if a will is NOT left, then the estate is distributed in such a manner that the son gets double what the daughter gets. Generally, the son is responsible for a family, while the daughter is taken care of by a husband or her family. However, the Quran recommends in 2:180 that a will shall be left to conform with the specific circumstances of the deceased. For example, if the son is rich and the daughter is poor, one may leave a will giving the daughter everything, or twice as much as the son.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again you're defending an accusation that wasn't even made. I said that this rule was a case of inequality. Nothing more nothing less. It is not perfectly equal. You cannot say that Islam treats women perfectly equal, because it does not. It may have it's reasons and it's excuses but that still does not stop it from having inequalities. You cannot say that it's perfectly equal any more than you can say any other system is perfectly equal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is the verse you posted with an addition:
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils(arabic word is khumur) over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31)
The noun khimar (of which khumur is plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women as an ornament (not as hijab to cover their head) before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as an ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her chest was left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's chest is not included in the concept of "what may decently be apparent" of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed. Covering of the head, therefore is not a requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I've read all that. Sounds really good doesn't it. But that's not actually Islam. That's a modern interpretation that goes against what Mohammed and his companions taught. There are many many westernised and modern Muslim women who do not wear the Hijab, and I agree that that verse can justify it, however it is not Islamic jurisprudence nor is it what Mohammed taught was the meaning of the verse. Mohammed said women of menstrual age should cover all but their face and their hands. Are you going to say that Mohammed didn't know best about Islam?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read it several times and there never was an instance in which I found it unclear. I really cannot think of anything that the Quran does not cover. I you could provide an example I would be grateful. And what does the order I read it in change? Contrary to many people, I didn't read the Quran in the regular order, but rather by interest. A "this surah looks interesting, I'll read it" sort off order, thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've just pointed out several instances where it was obviously unclear to you as you took the wrong meanings from them. What does the order you read it in change what it says? Well it puts everything in context for a start, so you can see where one verse is referring to another that was recently said. It also shows you how Mohammeds preaching changed from peaceful and accepting to violent and conquering. It also helps you find the abrogated verses easier. And it helps point out some of the dodgy things that Mohammed said that help to show that he was making it up as he went along. Rather than dipping and diving into the Qu'ran because some things look interesting read the whole thing. Once in Uthman order and once in written order. It'll help paint a clearer picture of some of the verses. And I'd also recommend reading more than just the sites that push Islam in a positive way in order to help combat Islamophobia and help it feel more palatable to Westerners. Read the proper Islam. Most modern Westernised Muslims don't follow the same kind of Islam that they do in the Middle East, they're far more liberal. Although in the UK there seems to be a growth in the numbers that want to return to the more conservative Islam.
“And certainly We created you, THEN We fashioned you, THEN We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam. So they did obeisance except Iblis; he was not of those who did obeisance.”
The particle “Thumma” which means “Then” and which divides the timeline between these three events is indicative of the fact that mankind’s creation was prior to Adam, as is the past tense form “Khalaqnakum” ‘We created you all’ and ‘Sawarnakum’ ‘We shaped you all’. As it is after creation of mankind and after giving it shapes that Adam comes on the scene and not before, therefore it is wrong to conclude that Adam is the first human being.
“What ails you, that you look not for majesty in God, seeing HE CREATED YOU BY STAGES?”
Human creation is not instantaneous like Adam and Eve of the Old Testament but in stages, as per Qur’an.
“And Allah has made you GROW OUT OF THE EARTH AS A GROWTH:”
The above further lends support to the view of stages of creation of humanity and negates the view of an instant creation of man and woman in the garden of Eden.
The above and more verses demonstrate that the Qur’an does not forward the view that mankind came about through Adam and Eve and dictates its own terms on the concept of human creation.
ost for TrolleyDave too then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the survey says... "Incorrect". As lots of people like to say to critics of Islam, that's completely out of context. You can take a verse or line out of a huge amount of books and use it to prove things that they had no knowledge or make it seem like it supports things it does not. I can take lines out of the Qu'ran that shows that Apostates are the ones that God guides and Muslims are abandoned by him.
Read this, it'll tell you all about what the stages of Mankinds development was. The "grow out of the earth as a growth" thing is also misquoted in order to attach a scientific fact to it.
And again, apologies for the delay in the reply.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO PROBLEM! Family comes first....your apologies accepted.
I think we should address issues turn by turn.....first lets see why are there two women witnesses to a single men.
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything."
The Noble Verse above is quite clear about providing either two reliable men or 2 reliable women in a substitution for each man in any court. But why did Allah Almighty order such a law? What is the Divine Wisdom behind it?
The Noble Verse above does not in anyway talk about women's intelligence or memory capabilities or brains. It is simply talking about the women's complete integrity. Women are by far more emotional than men. This by itself will effect the woman's ACCURACY in her witness if she is asked to explain what happened in a certain event.
Let us look at few differences between men and women to understand better:
1- Women have a lot more patience and emotions in them than men. This is one of the blessings that Allah Almighty had created in women to enable them to raise children. Men do not have enough patience in them, nor enough loving emotions in them to raise children.
2- Women can easily get frightened. Man can't. It takes a lot to frighten a normal average man.
Let us look at the following Saying from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: "The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Witnesses, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826)"
Notice very carefully here that Prophet Muhammad said "woman's mind" and not "woman's brain". No where in any Islamic doctrine do we see any ridiculous uneducated and unscientific claim against women or anyone. The women's brains and ability to think is not what is being criticized here. It is as I said above their complete integrity. Notice how Allah Almighty said in the Noble Verse "...it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves...(The Noble Quran, 2:282)" So it is the perfect justice and the 100% complete accuracy that Allah Almighty is concerned about here.
Here are some Scientific Facts:
Are two women equal to one man in Islam?
[Ref Noble Qur'aan 2:282]
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything."
This particular verse has frequently been used by Christian missionary and other anti-Islaam elements as an unusual and absurd claim that has nothing to do with the issue being raised in a twisted and perverted fashion. First and foremost this verse is addressing an issue in conjunction of least ideal situation which may or may not arise. But if it does, than let us explore why?
Men and women have their gender, biological, physical, and emotional differences [to name few], which results in different medical, mental, health, and psychological conditions. Those in denial or ignorant will dispute this fact without realizing that Noble Qur'aan 1,421 years ago actually protected women forever with this very verse. Many reasons which effects women's health have been discovered by modern science in recent age and will continue to be explored in future. Let us see some of those facts which impairs a woman's everyday life not to mention concentration..
Premenstrual Syndrome
(Late Luteal Phase Dysphoric Disorder)
Premenstrual Syndrome (Late Luteal Phase Dysphoric Disorder) is a concept of which the validity has been questioned for decades. While based on clinical reality, with at least 60% of all women suffering from it, PMS has served as a tool for diminishing women, for enforcing stereotypes about their unpredictable and uncontrollable character, and for ridiculing their assertive behavior. The notion of PMS got so woven into the texture of our psycho-social fabric that many women self-diagnose themselves (or let their partners do so) without really having the disorder; while others who actually do need help go untreated because they (or their doctors) simply ""don't believe" in PMS. Stereotypes are rich soil for self-fulfilling prophecy. The best way to conquer these stereotypes is through education.
Osteoporosis
Menopause is a distinct phase of a woman's life with its own special health needs and issues. Without a doubt, the single most important concern of the post menopausal women remains osteoporosis, or thinning and brittle bones.
· Traumas
· Eating Disorders
· Health Disorders
Endometriosis
It is a painful disease that may afflict 10 percent of women of child-bearing age. Endometriosis can go undetected and untreated by the medical community and wreak havoc on the sufferer's life. Many women who suffer from endometriosis eventually undergo unnecessary hysterectomies.
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) is one of the most frequent anxiety disorders with current prevalence of 1.6% and lifetime prevalence 5.1% (Wittchen, Zhao, Kessler, & Eaton, 1994). It is a chronic condition which, despite some fluctuations, is relatively stable with continuous symptom pattern (Rickels & Schweizer, 1990; Brown, Barlow & Liebowitz, 1994). It's a state of continuous apprehension and anticipation of something horrible, characterized by excessive anxiety and unrealistic worry. It often affects social and occupational functioning and might have disruptive influence on the patients' families. The impact on the patients' perception of his/her emotional and physical well-being is great.
Panic disorder and Agoraphobia
Did you know that almost 14 % of general population suffers from one of the anxiety disorders? And did you know that the majority are women? One of the most common anxiety disorders is panic disorder with or without agoraphobia (even more common are simple phobias, such as fear of heights, darkness, animals etc.). The psychological, social and economical consequences of this disorders are enormous. Many kinds of effective treatments exist. Still, a great number of panic and agoraphobic patients struggle alone, afraid of confiding in their physicians because of the stigma attached to mental problems. Some physicians fail to recognize the symptoms. If you suffer from hyperventilation, palpitations, tingling sensations, dizziness or chest pain that suddenly come and suddenly disappear, you might be suffering from panic disorder. Wait no longer. There is help.
Relationship Issues
a.. Arguing
b.. Co-dependency
c.. Making Relationships Work
d.. Negative Thinking
e.. Sleep Hygiene
For some, falling asleep is as simple as laying back into a soft pillow. But for others, it is a frustrating process of tossing, turning and glancing nervously at the advancing clock. Whether you awake refreshed and ready to face the day or red-eyed and sluggish depends on your sleep hygiene. Sleep hygiene is your personal collection of habits that determine the quality of your sleep.
For further information check this link of American medical Association [Women's Health Issues] <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/womh.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/womh.htm</a>
American Medical Association <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/</a>
American Psychological Association [Women's Health] <a href="http://helping.apa.org/" target="_blank">http://helping.apa.org/</a>
American Psychological Association <a href="http://www.apa.org/" target="_blank">http://www.apa.org/</a>
There are literally hundreds of mental, psychological, medical and emotional conditions that modern science has discovered that a women suffers from her birth till she dies, let alone PMS or Child birth, to death in family, or sickness or death of child of close kin. To avoid lengthy response I have provided the links above. Where one can find expert opinions and women's health info.
<!--quoteo(post=3676893:date=May 31 2011, 10:06 AM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ May 31 2011, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3676893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NO PROBLEM! Family comes first....your apologies accepted.
I think we should address issues turn by turn.....first lets see why are there two women witnesses to a single men.
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything."
The Noble Verse above is quite clear about providing either two reliable men or 2 reliable women in a substitution for each man in any court. But why did Allah Almighty order such a law? What is the Divine Wisdom behind it?
The Noble Verse above does not in anyway talk about women's intelligence or memory capabilities or brains. It is simply talking about the women's complete integrity. Women are by far more emotional than men. This by itself will effect the woman's ACCURACY in her witness if she is asked to explain what happened in a certain event.
Let us look at few differences between men and women to understand better:
1- Women have a lot more patience and emotions in them than men. This is one of the blessings that Allah Almighty had created in women to enable them to raise children. Men do not have enough patience in them, nor enough loving emotions in them to raise children.
2- Women can easily get frightened. Man can't. It takes a lot to frighten a normal average man.
Let us look at the following Saying from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: "The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Witnesses, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826)"
Notice very carefully here that Prophet Muhammad said "woman's mind" and not "woman's brain". No where in any Islamic doctrine do we see any ridiculous uneducated and unscientific claim against women or anyone. The women's brains and ability to think is not what is being criticized here. It is as I said above their complete integrity. Notice how Allah Almighty said in the Noble Verse "...it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves...(The Noble Quran, 2:282)" So it is the perfect justice and the 100% complete accuracy that Allah Almighty is concerned about here.
Here are some Scientific Facts:
Are two women equal to one man in Islam?
[Ref Noble Qur'aan 2:282]
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything."
This particular verse has frequently been used by Christian missionary and other anti-Islaam elements as an unusual and absurd claim that has nothing to do with the issue being raised in a twisted and perverted fashion. First and foremost this verse is addressing an issue in conjunction of least ideal situation which may or may not arise. But if it does, than let us explore why?
Men and women have their gender, biological, physical, and emotional differences [to name few], which results in different medical, mental, health, and psychological conditions. Those in denial or ignorant will dispute this fact without realizing that Noble Qur'aan 1,421 years ago actually protected women forever with this very verse. Many reasons which effects women's health have been discovered by modern science in recent age and will continue to be explored in future. Let us see some of those facts which impairs a woman's everyday life not to mention concentration..
Premenstrual Syndrome
(Late Luteal Phase Dysphoric Disorder)
Premenstrual Syndrome (Late Luteal Phase Dysphoric Disorder) is a concept of which the validity has been questioned for decades. While based on clinical reality, with at least 60% of all women suffering from it, PMS has served as a tool for diminishing women, for enforcing stereotypes about their unpredictable and uncontrollable character, and for ridiculing their assertive behavior. The notion of PMS got so woven into the texture of our psycho-social fabric that many women self-diagnose themselves (or let their partners do so) without really having the disorder; while others who actually do need help go untreated because they (or their doctors) simply ""don't believe" in PMS. Stereotypes are rich soil for self-fulfilling prophecy. The best way to conquer these stereotypes is through education.
Osteoporosis
Menopause is a distinct phase of a woman's life with its own special health needs and issues. Without a doubt, the single most important concern of the post menopausal women remains osteoporosis, or thinning and brittle bones.
· Traumas
· Eating Disorders
· Health Disorders
Endometriosis
It is a painful disease that may afflict 10 percent of women of child-bearing age. Endometriosis can go undetected and untreated by the medical community and wreak havoc on the sufferer's life. Many women who suffer from endometriosis eventually undergo unnecessary hysterectomies.
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) is one of the most frequent anxiety disorders with current prevalence of 1.6% and lifetime prevalence 5.1% (Wittchen, Zhao, Kessler, & Eaton, 1994). It is a chronic condition which, despite some fluctuations, is relatively stable with continuous symptom pattern (Rickels & Schweizer, 1990; Brown, Barlow & Liebowitz, 1994). It's a state of continuous apprehension and anticipation of something horrible, characterized by excessive anxiety and unrealistic worry. It often affects social and occupational functioning and might have disruptive influence on the patients' families. The impact on the patients' perception of his/her emotional and physical well-being is great.
Panic disorder and Agoraphobia
Did you know that almost 14 % of general population suffers from one of the anxiety disorders? And did you know that the majority are women? One of the most common anxiety disorders is panic disorder with or without agoraphobia (even more common are simple phobias, such as fear of heights, darkness, animals etc.). The psychological, social and economical consequences of this disorders are enormous. Many kinds of effective treatments exist. Still, a great number of panic and agoraphobic patients struggle alone, afraid of confiding in their physicians because of the stigma attached to mental problems. Some physicians fail to recognize the symptoms. If you suffer from hyperventilation, palpitations, tingling sensations, dizziness or chest pain that suddenly come and suddenly disappear, you might be suffering from panic disorder. Wait no longer. There is help.
Relationship Issues
a.. Arguing
b.. Co-dependency
c.. Making Relationships Work
d.. Negative Thinking
e.. Sleep Hygiene
For some, falling asleep is as simple as laying back into a soft pillow. But for others, it is a frustrating process of tossing, turning and glancing nervously at the advancing clock. Whether you awake refreshed and ready to face the day or red-eyed and sluggish depends on your sleep hygiene. Sleep hygiene is your personal collection of habits that determine the quality of your sleep.
For further information check this link of American medical Association [Women's Health Issues] <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/womh.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/womh.htm</a>
American Medical Association <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/</a>
American Psychological Association [Women's Health] <a href="http://helping.apa.org/" target="_blank">http://helping.apa.org/</a>
American Psychological Association <a href="http://www.apa.org/" target="_blank">http://www.apa.org/</a>
There are literally hundreds of mental, psychological, medical and emotional conditions that modern science has discovered that a women suffers from her birth till she dies, let alone PMS or Child birth, to death in family, or sickness or death of child of close kin. To avoid lengthy response I have provided the links above. Where one can find expert opinions and women's health info.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I see there is someone trying to retain Mohammeds reputation as "the perfect man" and "the example for all mankind for all-time". None of these things were thought, taught or mentioned about this verse until more recent times. And the reason for the change of thinking? It's because in Liberal Secular democracies we have learnt from our mistakes and pasts and cast off our old, outdated stereotyped views passed on through religion about women. Our morals have improved, and as our morals begin to excel those of Mohammeds so scholars and apologists have had to rewrite Islamic history and the meanings of what Mohammed says in order to maintain the illusion that he was the most moral person in history. If our morals and outlook hadn't changed then neither would the meaning of this verse/Hadith. Is this piece written a hundred years ago? Two hundred years ago? No, it's written in modern times. Show me a piece written by a scholar closer to Mohammeds time that says this is what he meant and I'll believe it. One from even just 100 years ago will do.
Until then I'll take what he said at face value. Specially when he also said and did all these other things :
Allah's Messenger said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." - Al-Tirmidhi 3257
Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning." - Bukhari 4:460
The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you." - Bukhari 1:28
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Bukhari 6:302
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence." - Sahih Bukhari 3:34:432
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? - Sahih Muslim 4:2127
If Mohammed really was the champion of women then why would he allow them to be taken as war booty? Why would he allow female slaves? Why would he have taken female captives himself? Now matter how you try to spin this Mohammeds own actions count as evidence against him. If you look at the picture as a whole, rather than at the snippets that are shown to you to make him seem like "the perfect man" you see that he viewed women as inferior to men and as property. If the morals of the average non-believer hadn't have grown then none of these Hadiths would ever have been questioned. It's just that the modern non-believers morals are becoming vastly superior to Mohammeds, therefore the need to defend what he said and protect his reputation has arisen. Why did God not teach Mohammed that slavery is wrong and why did Mohammed no pass that message on? We as humans learnt our lesson a long time ago. Should our morals excel those of an All Knowing, All Wise and All Compassionate and perfect being? If they do then surely he should be worshipping and submitting to us, not the other way around. Unless you'd like to tell me now that slavery is OK and moral?
Moving on to the article itself that you posted.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Noble Verse above does not in anyway talk about women's intelligence or memory capabilities or brains. It is simply talking about the women's complete integrity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times does the Qu'ran actually mention the brain at all? As for critiquing womens integrity, don't you think that's a little bigoted and prejudicial? You can no more judge a woman based on womanhood than you can an individual Muslim based on other Muslims. Otherwise the saying "All Muslims are terrorist" holds weight, and we both know that argument holds no weight whatsoever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Women are by far more emotional than men. This by itself will effect the woman's ACCURACY in her witness if she is asked to explain what happened in a certain event.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Women are not far more emotional than men. Please educate yourself. There are women who are more emotional than men, yes. There are however men who are more emotional than women. You can not judge a indivuidal based on a group, you can only judge an individual. As for emotion effecting the accuracy of a womans testimony, men suffer the same problem. Emotion is a human trait, not just a female one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1- Women have a lot more patience and emotions in them than men. This is one of the blessings that Allah Almighty had created in women to enable them to raise children. Men do not have enough patience in them, nor enough loving emotions in them to raise children.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What complete and utter bollocks. It's this kind of belief that used to stop deserving men from getting custody of their children after a divorce. Women are no more naturally patient than men. Patience is a virtue that is learnt, it's not a natural emotion. If it was a natural human trait then there would be no impatience, and clearly the world is full of impatient people. And as for men not having enough loving emotions in them to raise children, you can pop that thought in an envelope and post it back to the pre-1950's. There are plenty of men with more than enough loving emotions in them. There are plenty of men who do an incredible job of raising their children to be kind, helpful and productive members of society. To say any different is bigoted and stereotyping. There are very few types of people you can judge based upon the collective group that they belong to. Again I refer you to the phrase "All Muslims are terrorists". Is this true? No it isn't. So why is it fair for you to say "All men are so and so"? It is absolutely no different. The internet is a huge (virtual) place that holds more information than one man could learn in a life time. I suggest using it. I know you're taught to only ask scholars and only refer to things that scholars have said, written and taught but there is a psychological reason behind that. Break free from it and learn for yourself, you'll be surprised by some of the things you'll learn. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2- Women can easily get frightened. Man can't. It takes a lot to frighten a normal average man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're scared of depends upon both your upbringing and experiences. Male Muslims are afraid of Satan and Hell. My niece isn't. There is absolutely no proof of either Satan or Hell, so therefore Muslim men are frightened of what is essentially a fairy tale. So tell me, in this case who is more easily frightened? Is it a grown Male Muslim man or my 13-yr old niece? And again, you're stereotyping. People must be judged on individual traits. Not all Mexicans are lazy, not all Pakistani's are Muslims, not all English people are posh, not all Welsh people are farmers, not all Scottish people are drunks, not all Black people are "gangsta's", not all Italian's are in the Mafia, not all Germans are Nazi's, not all Americans are fat, not all Indians are Hindu. Do you see the problem with both your thinking and the logic behind the person who wrote this article? They make huge sweeping generalisations, if even one women is less easily frightened than a man or one man is more easily frightened than a woman then the whole article is meaningless and baseless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Notice very carefully here that Prophet Muhammad said "woman's mind" and not "woman's brain". No where in any Islamic doctrine do we see any ridiculous uneducated and unscientific claim against women or anyone. The women's brains and ability to think is not what is being criticized here. It is as I said above their complete integrity. Notice how Allah Almighty said in the Noble Verse "...it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves...(The Noble Quran, 2:282)" So it is the perfect justice and the 100% complete accuracy that Allah Almighty is concerned about here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again I ask, exactly how many times is the word "brain" used in the Qu'ran? Integrity is something that is learnt, it makes up part of our morals. It all comes from the persons brain as that is our thought centre. I know Zakir Naik would like you to believe that we have a soul but sorry to break this to you - we don't. Everything comes from the brain. To criticise someones integrity is to criticise their upbringing, their belief system and their brain. I'll also say that once again this is a case of stereotyping. You can not question a persons integrity based on someone elses. And really if the Abrahamic God was all knowing and all wise he would know this. If he doesn't then that means that I have a better moral standard than the Abrahamic God.
As for perfect justice and 100% complete accuracy being the concern here, that's just more bollocks. If perfect justice and 100% accuracy was the concern here then there would be no stereotyping, as stereotyping is not 100% accurate nor is it just. I'll use a couple of lines from the article itself "Stereotypes are rich soil for self-fulfilling prophecy. The best way to conquer these stereotypes is through education.".
<!--quoteo(post=3680933:date=Jun 1 2011, 08:17 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ Jun 1 2011, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3680933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3676893:date=May 31 2011, 10:06 AM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ May 31 2011, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3676893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NO PROBLEM! Family comes first....your apologies accepted.
I think we should address issues turn by turn.....first lets see why are there two women witnesses to a single men.
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything."
The Noble Verse above is quite clear about providing either two reliable men or 2 reliable women in a substitution for each man in any court. But why did Allah Almighty order such a law? What is the Divine Wisdom behind it?
The Noble Verse above does not in anyway talk about women's intelligence or memory capabilities or brains. It is simply talking about the women's complete integrity. Women are by far more emotional than men. This by itself will effect the woman's ACCURACY in her witness if she is asked to explain what happened in a certain event.
Let us look at few differences between men and women to understand better:
1- Women have a lot more patience and emotions in them than men. This is one of the blessings that Allah Almighty had created in women to enable them to raise children. Men do not have enough patience in them, nor enough loving emotions in them to raise children.
2- Women can easily get frightened. Man can't. It takes a lot to frighten a normal average man.
Let us look at the following Saying from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: "The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Witnesses, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826)"
Notice very carefully here that Prophet Muhammad said "woman's mind" and not "woman's brain". No where in any Islamic doctrine do we see any ridiculous uneducated and unscientific claim against women or anyone. The women's brains and ability to think is not what is being criticized here. It is as I said above their complete integrity. Notice how Allah Almighty said in the Noble Verse "...it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves...(The Noble Quran, 2:282)" So it is the perfect justice and the 100% complete accuracy that Allah Almighty is concerned about here.
Here are some Scientific Facts:
Are two women equal to one man in Islam?
[Ref Noble Qur'aan 2:282]
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything."
This particular verse has frequently been used by Christian missionary and other anti-Islaam elements as an unusual and absurd claim that has nothing to do with the issue being raised in a twisted and perverted fashion. First and foremost this verse is addressing an issue in conjunction of least ideal situation which may or may not arise. But if it does, than let us explore why?
Men and women have their gender, biological, physical, and emotional differences [to name few], which results in different medical, mental, health, and psychological conditions. Those in denial or ignorant will dispute this fact without realizing that Noble Qur'aan 1,421 years ago actually protected women forever with this very verse. Many reasons which effects women's health have been discovered by modern science in recent age and will continue to be explored in future. Let us see some of those facts which impairs a woman's everyday life not to mention concentration..
Premenstrual Syndrome
(Late Luteal Phase Dysphoric Disorder)
Premenstrual Syndrome (Late Luteal Phase Dysphoric Disorder) is a concept of which the validity has been questioned for decades. While based on clinical reality, with at least 60% of all women suffering from it, PMS has served as a tool for diminishing women, for enforcing stereotypes about their unpredictable and uncontrollable character, and for ridiculing their assertive behavior. The notion of PMS got so woven into the texture of our psycho-social fabric that many women self-diagnose themselves (or let their partners do so) without really having the disorder; while others who actually do need help go untreated because they (or their doctors) simply ""don't believe" in PMS. Stereotypes are rich soil for self-fulfilling prophecy. The best way to conquer these stereotypes is through education.
Osteoporosis
Menopause is a distinct phase of a woman's life with its own special health needs and issues. Without a doubt, the single most important concern of the post menopausal women remains osteoporosis, or thinning and brittle bones.
· Traumas
· Eating Disorders
· Health Disorders
Endometriosis
It is a painful disease that may afflict 10 percent of women of child-bearing age. Endometriosis can go undetected and untreated by the medical community and wreak havoc on the sufferer's life. Many women who suffer from endometriosis eventually undergo unnecessary hysterectomies.
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) is one of the most frequent anxiety disorders with current prevalence of 1.6% and lifetime prevalence 5.1% (Wittchen, Zhao, Kessler, & Eaton, 1994). It is a chronic condition which, despite some fluctuations, is relatively stable with continuous symptom pattern (Rickels & Schweizer, 1990; Brown, Barlow & Liebowitz, 1994). It's a state of continuous apprehension and anticipation of something horrible, characterized by excessive anxiety and unrealistic worry. It often affects social and occupational functioning and might have disruptive influence on the patients' families. The impact on the patients' perception of his/her emotional and physical well-being is great.
Panic disorder and Agoraphobia
Did you know that almost 14 % of general population suffers from one of the anxiety disorders? And did you know that the majority are women? One of the most common anxiety disorders is panic disorder with or without agoraphobia (even more common are simple phobias, such as fear of heights, darkness, animals etc.). The psychological, social and economical consequences of this disorders are enormous. Many kinds of effective treatments exist. Still, a great number of panic and agoraphobic patients struggle alone, afraid of confiding in their physicians because of the stigma attached to mental problems. Some physicians fail to recognize the symptoms. If you suffer from hyperventilation, palpitations, tingling sensations, dizziness or chest pain that suddenly come and suddenly disappear, you might be suffering from panic disorder. Wait no longer. There is help.
Relationship Issues
a.. Arguing
b.. Co-dependency
c.. Making Relationships Work
d.. Negative Thinking
e.. Sleep Hygiene
For some, falling asleep is as simple as laying back into a soft pillow. But for others, it is a frustrating process of tossing, turning and glancing nervously at the advancing clock. Whether you awake refreshed and ready to face the day or red-eyed and sluggish depends on your sleep hygiene. Sleep hygiene is your personal collection of habits that determine the quality of your sleep.
For further information check this link of American medical Association [Women's Health Issues] <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/womh.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/womh.htm</a>
American Medical Association <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/</a>
American Psychological Association [Women's Health] <a href="http://helping.apa.org/" target="_blank">http://helping.apa.org/</a>
American Psychological Association <a href="http://www.apa.org/" target="_blank">http://www.apa.org/</a>
There are literally hundreds of mental, psychological, medical and emotional conditions that modern science has discovered that a women suffers from her birth till she dies, let alone PMS or Child birth, to death in family, or sickness or death of child of close kin. To avoid lengthy response I have provided the links above. Where one can find expert opinions and women's health info.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I see there is someone trying to retain Mohammeds reputation as "the perfect man" and "the example for all mankind for all-time". None of these things were thought, taught or mentioned about this verse until more recent times. And the reason for the change of thinking? It's because in Liberal Secular democracies we have learnt from our mistakes and pasts and cast off our old, outdated stereotyped views passed on through religion about women. Our morals have improved, and as our morals begin to excel those of Mohammeds scholars and apologists have had to rewrite Islamic history and the meanings of what Mohammed says in order to maintain the illusion that he was the most moral person in history. If our morals and outlook hadn't changed then neither would the meaning of this verse. Is this piece written a hundred years ago? Two hundred years ago? No, it's written in modern times. Show me a piece written by a scholar closer to Mohammeds time that says this is what he meant and I'll believe it. One from even just 100 years ago will do.
Until then I'll take what he said at face value. Specially when he also said and did all these other things :
Allah's Messenger said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." - Al-Tirmidhi 3257
Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning." - Bukhari 4:460
The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you." - Bukhari 1:28
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Bukhari 6:302
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence." - Sahih Bukhari 3:34:432
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? - Sahih Muslim 4:2127
If Mohammed really was the champion of women then why would he allow them to be taken as war booty? Why would he allow female slaves? Why would he have taken female captives himself? Now matter how you try to spin this Mohammeds own actions count as evidence against him. If you look at the picture as a whole, rather than at the snippets that are shown to you to make him seem like "the perfect man" you see that he viewed women as inferior to men and as property. If the morals of the average non-believer hadn't have grown then none of these Hadiths would ever have been questioned. It's just that the modern non-believers morals are becoming vastly superior to Mohammeds, therefore the need to defend what he said and protect his reputation has arisen. Why did God not teach Mohammed that slavery is wrong and why did Mohammed no pass that message on? We as humans learnt our lesson a long time ago. Should our morals excel those of an All Knowing, All Wise and All Compassionate and perfect being? If they do then surely he should be worshipping and submitting to us, not the other way around. Unless you'd like to tell me now that slavery is OK and moral?
Moving on to the article itself that you posted.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Noble Verse above does not in anyway talk about women's intelligence or memory capabilities or brains. It is simply talking about the women's complete integrity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times does the Qu'ran actually mention the brain at all? As for critiquing womens integrity, don't you think that's a little bigoted and prejudicial? You can no more judge a woman based on womanhood than you can an individual Muslim based on other Muslims. Otherwise the saying "All Muslims are terrorist" holds weight, and we both know that argument holds no weight whatsoever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Women are by far more emotional than men. This by itself will effect the woman's ACCURACY in her witness if she is asked to explain what happened in a certain event.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Women are not far more emotional than men. Please educate yourself. There are women who are more emotional than men, yes. There are however men who are more emotional than women. You can not judge a indivuidal based on a group, you can only judge an individual. As for emotion effecting the accuracy of a womans testimony, men suffer the same problem. Emotion is a human trait, not just a female one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1- Women have a lot more patience and emotions in them than men. This is one of the blessings that Allah Almighty had created in women to enable them to raise children. Men do not have enough patience in them, nor enough loving emotions in them to raise children.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What complete and utter bollocks. It's this kind of belief that used to stop deserving men from getting custody of their children after a divorce. Women are no more naturally patient than men. Patience is a virtue that is learnt, it's not a natural emotion. If it was a natural human trait then there would be no impatience, and clearly the world is full of impatient people. And as for men not having enough loving emotions in them to raise children, you can pop that thought in an envelope and post it back to the pre-1950's. There are plenty of men with more than enough loving emotions in them. There are plenty of men who do an incredible job of raising their children to be kind, helpful and productive members of society. To say any different is bigoted and stereotyping. There are very few types of people you can judge based upon the collective group that they belong to. Again I refer you to the phrase "All Muslims are terrorists". Is this true? No it isn't. So why is it fair for you to say "All men are so and so"? It is absolutely no different. The internet is a huge (virtual) place that holds more information than one man could learn in a life time. I suggest using it. I know you're taught to only ask scholars and only refer to things that scholars have said, written and taught but there is a psychological reason behind that. Break free from it and learn for yourself, you'll be surprised by some of the things you'll learn. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2- Women can easily get frightened. Man can't. It takes a lot to frighten a normal average man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're scared of depends upon both your upbringing and experiences. Male Muslims are afraid of Satan and Hell. My niece isn't. There is absolutely no proof of either Satan or Hell, so therefore Muslim men are frightened of what is essentially a fairy tale. So tell me, in this case who is more easily frightened? Is it a grown Male Muslim man or my 13-yr old niece? And again, you're stereotyping. People must be judged on individual traits. Not all Mexicans are lazy, not all Pakistani's are Muslims, not all English people are posh, not all Welsh people are farmers, not all Scottish people are drunks, not all Black people are "gangsta's", not all Italian's are in the Mafia, not all Germans are Nazi's, not all Americans are fat, not all Indians are Hindu. Do you see the problem with both your thinking and the logic behind the person who wrote this article? They make huge sweeping generalisations, if even one women is less easily frightened than a man or one man is more easily frightened than a woman then the whole article is meaningless and baseless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Notice very carefully here that Prophet Muhammad said "woman's mind" and not "woman's brain". No where in any Islamic doctrine do we see any ridiculous uneducated and unscientific claim against women or anyone. The women's brains and ability to think is not what is being criticized here. It is as I said above their complete integrity. Notice how Allah Almighty said in the Noble Verse "...it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves...(The Noble Quran, 2:282)" So it is the perfect justice and the 100% complete accuracy that Allah Almighty is concerned about here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again I ask, exactly how many times is the word "brain" used in the Qu'ran? Integrity is something that is learnt, it makes up part of our morals. It all comes from the persons brain as that is our thought centre. I know Zakir Naik would like you to believe that we have a soul but sorry to break this to you - we don't. Everything comes from the brain. To criticise someones integrity is to criticise their upbringing, their belief system and their brain. I'll also say that once again this is a case of stereotyping. You can not question a persons integrity based on someone elses. And really if the Abrahamic God was all knowing and all wise he would know this. If he doesn't then that means that I have a better moral standard than the Abrahamic God.
As for perfect justice and 100% complete accuracy being the concern here, that's just more bollocks. If perfect justice and 100% accuracy was the concern here then there would be no stereotyping, as stereotyping is not 100% accurate nor is it just. I'll use a couple of lines from the article itself "Stereotypes are rich soil for self-fulfilling prophecy. The best way to conquer these stereotypes is through education.".
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally I'd say that was a tl;dr...but it was a good read :v
I try to keep them interesting! lol It's really only of interest to people interested in the topic tho. I try to keep them as short as possible, but it's not always easy when discussing religion!
Trolley Dave sorry for not replying to your doubts but I will do that by the next week as I am having my school exams right now...........again I apologize.
Trolley Dave sorry for not replying to your doubts but I will do that by the next week as I am having my school exams right now...........again I apologize.
Not a problem at all, take your time. And good luck on your exams! I should point out though that these aren't doubts, they are criticisms. Even if the Abrahamic god existed and appeared before my very eyes and told me he was indeed the one who sent the Qu'ran to Earth I would criticise him and tell him I'd rather be sent to hell then submit to his ideology.
bsfmtl123, you seem to be trying to justify why the Qur'an doesn't offer the same rights to both genders without admitting that the rights are unequal. Yes, men and women have biological differences but so do Black people and White people. Should these differences be grounds for different rights? Would these different rights be justified as long as there was some biological or statistical evidence that backed them up? I certainly don't think so.
Cheers Magmorph! I was beginning to think that either I wasn't putting my point across or I was just looking at the inequal rights thing in some weird and obscure way. lol
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