Signs Of Doomsday Day!!!

[bsfmtl123]

Yes but it is again giving genders unequal rights or unequal responsibilities. The very idea a man should be respectful to a woman just because of her gender is sexist in my mind.

How is this gender inequality?How are the responsibilities and rights unequal?Please explain!
A man should be respectful to a woman not because of her gender but her greatness.For example a mother, she is the one who gives birth(through severe pain),she is the one who cares for you,looks after and feeds you her milk.
Even then if you don't respect her than sorry bro Islamic teachings are not outdated or inferior but your thinking is.

People most certainly do enforce these views. Maybe you don't but others do and it can become a serious problem.Why not? Do you really, really, want to see great aunt Hilda naked? Pedophiles seeing naked kids. Rapists seeing naked women. Teenagers(like me) who are trying to focus on a class and seeing my classmates breasts and such. You don't see how that could be a bad idea? I really don't feel like doing my grocery and seeing breasts and penises everywhere. Especially when it isn't always pretty.
If you look into history you will find many successful societies where clothes weren't required. I know it would not work for our society but it has for those in the past.
Which societies and when did they exist?Were those people educated and civilized?If the answer is no then education should be finished as well there is no need of it,still then we can discover things like atoms,molecules and elements because many societies in past were successful.Over these years Islam has become outdated even if the Muslims were successful and ruled the world but those naked people were successful so there is nothing wrong in following there idea but following Islam is a problem.This is something very racist.

QUOTE

They were doing forced work. They lived in bad conditions. They were whipped, weren't feed enough, had minimal clothing. They stayed in bad places. While a slave here is more of a servant, only permanent. And this whole arguments is going nowhere because I already said that the Qur'an tells Muslims to free their slaves.
I'm not trying to argue with you on this point I just don't understand. Why would a Muslim have slaves to release in the first place?

A Muslim is encouraged to buy slaves their freedom.It means that Muslims should pay the masters of the salves to free them.
A Muslim can have a slave but there treatment should be equal and just.

Modesty:
Actually in Islam men are also not allowed to walk with bare chest.Modesty is not only for women but it is also for men.

“Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! God is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their chests, and not to reveal their adornment.” (Quran 24:30)

The Prophet once said to his companions:

“Be bashful before God according to His right to modesty before Him”.

They said: “O Messenger of God, verily we are shy, praise be to God.”

He said: “That is not it. Modesty before God according to His right to modesty is that you protect your mind in what it learns; your stomach in what it ingests. And remember death and the tribulations attached to it; and whoever wishes for the Hereafter, leaves the adornments of this life.

So whoever does all that is truly bashful before God according to His Right to modesty”.

What does acting and modelling involve,a women is shown naked(most of the films)....there is a lip-lock between a man and a woman....even between men and men or women and women.....some films promote sexual feelings and attraction(For example crushes).In Modelling, a sexy woman or a man walks on the ramp,how would the opposite sex feel.

All these things promote a desire for sex.

 

[TrolleyDave]

A Muslim is encouraged to buy slaves their freedom.It means that Muslims should pay the masters of the salves to free them.
A Muslim can have a slave but there treatment should be equal and just.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.047.765

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.034.351

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#010.3901

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#015.4112

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...mt.html#004.092

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597

 

[Pyrmon]

I don't believe in the Hadith. I'm neither Sunni, nor Shi'a. I may very well be considered an apostate or scum of the Earth by other Muslims, that is the Islam I choose to follow.

*ahem*

Not Muslim.

Again, NOT MUSLIM.

The verse about Polygamy(4:3) was revealed after the battle of Uhud, where Muslims had lost a lot of men, creating a social imbalance. It was for the only purpose of repopulating, which polygamy achieves faster than polyandry. Later in the verse it is said that if you can't be just toward several wives, then you can only marry one. Then, in 4:129, it is said that men cannot be just towards several wives, however hard they try. Simply, polygamy is an extreme measure for extreme situations. To be used only when the population is critically low.

Ok, but what exactly does that have to do with the point I was making. Are women allowed to have more than one husband?

The Qur'an commands Muslims to make a will. If one is not left, something which shouldn't happen, then that is the default division of the property. Because the Qur'an states that males should, out of gallantry, take the financial charges off the shoulders of their wife, they would get, by default, more. It's called justice.

No, justice would be assigning an equal share to everyone. As for gallantry, that's just nonsense. It says it because as Mohammed so succinctly put it, women are deficient of mind.

Hadiths aren't part of my religious Scripture. It may be part of other Muslim's, but the Qur'an itself(and, ironically, some Hadiths too) forbids Hadiths. In other words, no Hijab.

Spoiler

*ahem*

Not Muslim. To me, none of it is garbage. Muslims don't think Judaism is garbage, only that it's outdated.

Again, NOT MUSLIM.

If you're not following the Hadiths you're not following Islam. You might believe that the Qu'ran forbids Hadiths but it doesn't. The Qu'ran says to listen to Mohammed as he is the Seal of the Prophets and he speaks for God. Mohammed abrogated the "No other books" verse with his "To follow Islam is to follow the Qu'ran and me" ditty. In otherwords, to follow Islam is to follow the Sunnah. To follow the Sunnah you have to follow the Hadiths. Mohammed himself said that the only part of a woman that should be shown are her face and her hands. So once again I ask, do you know Islam better than Mohammed did? Or even better than the original companions? They also said that the Hijab is necessary. Read the Tafsir.

QUOTE

Exhibiting her beauty means, to my understanding, walking around stark naked. The Qur'an is saying that women shouldn't be strippers, prostitutes, pron stars and such. Same rule applies to men. As to WHY he/she shouldn't do it, I thought that was obvious. Not only are these jobs dangerous(STDs), they degrade women(and men). I don't know why the mention of acting and modeling by bsfmtl123. As long as a job doesn't require you to show your private parts, it's fine.

Exhibiting her beauty means her hair, her figure, her legs, her belly. It means any part of body apart from her face and hands. Which is ironic really considering that usually the most beautiful part of a woman is her face and eyes. Says alot about the Arab psyche and view of women at the time doesn't it. As for STD's, well precautions can be taken to stop the spread of them. Why exactly is it degrading? I admit there are certain things that could be considered degrading, but straight forward porn I'll disagree with you on. If she's not forced into it in any way shape or form (both physically and financially) then I can't see how it is. Isn't it her right to choose what to do with her body? You have a right to judge her based on your morals, but what right do you have to stop her from doing it if she so chooses? Just because the Qu'ran says that God appointed man "the keeper of women" doesn't necessarily make it so.

QUOTE

They are adapted to each case. Men can walk around without a shirt on. Women can't, because that would show their breasts. Yet, we are still all considered equal. Are you saying that we should all walk around completely naked to give everyone the same right?

If a woman chooses to walk around topless on a hot day I'm not bothered in the slightest, it's entirely her choice. Where do you get the link with everybody walking around naked though? Pretty much every woman I know chooses to keep covered. When's the last time you saw someone wandering around naked? Why is it religious people think that because someone doesn't live their life by a dusty old book written many centuries ago that they must have no morals? Are you saying that if it wasn't for religious text you wouldn't know right from wrong?

QUOTE

The idea of a slave/servant is different here. They do what you ask them and they get clothing, food and a place to stay in exchange. It really isn't as bad as the slaves the US had. And the Qur'an teaches that a Muslim should free his slaves, although he can keep his servants.

D'oh, me and my twisted moral code. Of course owning some is perfectly fine so long as you give them food, clothing and lodging - what was I thinking. And what's this "in exchange" business? You do know that the idea of slaves in the Qu'ran comes from people (mostly women and children) captured and kept as "spoils of war". How is that an "in exchange" deal? Is it "In exchange for you life you can come and work for for me for nothing more than food, clothing and lodging"?

I'll leave you with this quote to ponder on :

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

First of all, I recently converted. And you were one important factor. This thread made me believe more.
Second, are you doing this on purpose? I'm seriously dumbfounded. The only reason that polygamy could be allowed is if the population is critically low. So it's to reproduce faster. Women, even with four husbands can only have one baby per year or so. It isn't faster at all. In fact it's slower because the married husbands can't go reproduce with another women. It makes no sense to allow polyandry in critically low populations. Unless you know of a method for women to have four children from different husbands at the same time.
Third, I won't follow the Hadiths, as they are unreliable, the first being written about two hundred years after the Prophet's death. It's the same reason we Muslims criticize the New Testament. I follow Islam in what I believe to be it's purest form.
Fourth, that definition of beauty is per Hadith. I don't believe in Hadith. The definition I use is from knee to below the neck. There are still risks of STDs even if you take all the precautions in the world. I agree it is her right to do what she wants. Anyone can do whatever the fuck he or she wants. I don't care. But if you want to be a Muslim, those jobs are off limit. Simple as that.
Fifth, I would be very bothered by a woman walking around bare-breasted. Not only is it against my morals, it's outright disturbing. I would never be able to concentrate on anything if I have a pair of breasts in my face.
Sixth, I never said having slaves is OK. I said that 1)Muslims must free slaves and 2)Slaves of Muslim wouldn't have it as bad as you may think.

Now, I suggest we stop this debate as, obviously, neither of us is going to change his opinion and it would be very tiresome to let this go on to infinity, which is probably what is going to happen.

 

[stanleyopar2000]

I know the world is ending soon....the floods, disasters, record breaking weather / tornadoes....signs of a oppressing government rising..people's hearts "waxing cold"...extreme corruption with money that no one has ever seen before, homosexuality acceptance in society rising, (as in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah) [I have gay friends] (useless)Wars and Rumors of wars (just to make a shitload of money). I am religious ..I go to church on saturday but...my goal for some reason is to find someone to love right now or lose my virginity...

either way as what Morgan Freeman said in Shawshank - "I don't give a shit"

 

[Magmorph]

How is this gender inequality?How are the responsibilities and rights unequal?Please explain!
A man should be respectful to a woman not because of her gender but her greatness.For example a mother, she is the one who gives birth(through severe pain),she is the one who cares for you,looks after and feeds you her milk.
Even then if you don't respect her than sorry bro Islamic teachings are not outdated or inferior but your thinking is.
She could have also been an abusive, negligent bitch who left you in a dumpster to die. Just being a woman doesn't earn you respect, being a good person does.

Which societies and when did they exist?Were those people educated and civilized?If the answer is no then education should be finished as well there is no need of it,still then we can discover things like atoms,molecules and elements because many societies in past were successful.Over these years Islam has become outdated even if the Muslims were successful and ruled the world but those naked people were successful so there is nothing wrong in following there idea but following Islam is a problem.This is something very racist.
We still do follow some of the things Islam teaches just as we still follow some of the things Christianity teaches. We don't have to follow everything they teach just because we follow some things. How detrimental could it possibly be for a society to not require clothing?
There was no discussion of race. Islam is not a race.
QUOTE

All these things promote a desire for sex.

God forbid people would want to have sex and reproduce. I don't understand religion's obsession with sex. Desire for sex is natural. If we had no desire for sex the species would have died out ages ago.

 

[Ace Overclocked]

How is this gender inequality?How are the responsibilities and rights unequal?Please explain!
A man should be respectful to a woman not because of her gender but her greatness.For example a mother, she is the one who gives birth(through severe pain),she is the one who cares for you,looks after and feeds you her milk.
Even then if you don't respect her than sorry bro Islamic teachings are not outdated or inferior but your thinking is.
She could have also been an abusive, negligent bitch who left you in a dumpster to die. Just being a woman doesn't earn you respect, being a good person does.

Which societies and when did they exist?Were those people educated and civilized?If the answer is no then education should be finished as well there is no need of it,still then we can discover things like atoms,molecules and elements because many societies in past were successful.Over these years Islam has become outdated even if the Muslims were successful and ruled the world but those naked people were successful so there is nothing wrong in following there idea but following Islam is a problem.This is something very racist.
We still do follow some of the things Islam teaches just as we still follow some of the things Christianity teaches. We don't have to follow everything they teach just because we follow some things. How detrimental could it possibly be for a society to not require clothing?
There was no discussion of race. Islam is not a race.
QUOTE

All these things promote a desire for sex.

God forbid people would want to have sex and reproduce. I don't understand religion's obsession with sex. Desire for sex is natural. If we had no desire for sex the species would have died out ages ago.

god forbids sex if you are not married with the person you want to make love with
why?
most likely because people would abuse
some people will throw and abandon their children(happens alot lately)
and the list goes on

 

[TrolleyDave]

First of all, I recently converted. And you were one important factor. This thread made me believe more.

I'm happy to have been of assistance. Although I don't it believe for one minute, I have absolutely no doubts that you've been a Muslim for alot longer than this thread has been in existence. I have no problem with people converting to Islam nor Muslims in general. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. What I do have a problem with is people using both propaganda and Dawahganda. If you're going to promote something that claims to be "the ultimate truth" then you shouldn't have to tell lies to do it, the truth should speak for itself. The same argument holds weight for those who criticise it using lies to make it look bad.

However, if someone posts a thread like this attempting to scaremonger about the end of the world using the Abrahamic "Doomsday/Day of Judgement" myth I'm going to counter it. Nothing should be beyond criticism, specially religion.

Second, are you doing this on purpose? I'm seriously dumbfounded. The only reason that polygamy could be allowed is if the population is critically low. So it's to reproduce faster. Women, even with four husbands can only have one baby per year or so. It isn't faster at all. In fact it's slower because the married husbands can't go reproduce with another women. It makes no sense to allow polyandry in critically low populations. Unless you know of a method for women to have four children from different husbands at the same time.

I could say exactly the same thing to you. You are completely ignoring my question and point. My point is that regardless of the reasons Islam uses to justify this rule it still boils down to it being an inequal right. It is something the man is allowed to do that the woman is not. Therefore it is an example of inequality in Islam. And stop with the "It's only allowed if the population is critically low" because it isn't. Muslim men can have multiple wives in this day and age and there are 1.6 billion Muslims across the planet. Are you saying that 1.6 billion is "critically low"? If you are then me and you have a very different opinion on what constitutes "critically low".

Third, I won't follow the Hadiths, as they are unreliable, the first being written about two hundred years after the Prophet's death. It's the same reason we Muslims criticize the New Testament. I follow Islam in what I believe to be it's purest form.

Good for you, However don't promote your particular sect of Islam as tho it is the type of Islam that is generally taught because both you and I know that it isn't. If the average person was to walk into their local Sunni/Shi'a Masjid then most of what you're saying would not apply. Your sect of Islam isn't what the mainstream sects teach and promote. What you're doing essentially is tricking people. If you're going to promote those teachings then either say "the sect I follow" or name the actual sect that you follow.

edit : http://www.islaam.com/article.aspx?id=232

Fourth, that definition of beauty is per Hadith. I don't believe in Hadith. The definition I use is from knee to below the neck. There are still risks of STDs even if you take all the
precautions in the world. I agree it is her right to do what she wants. Anyone can do whatever the fuck he or she wants. I don't care. But if you want to be a Muslim, those jobs are off limit. Simple as that.

Then that's fair enough then. And the risk of STD's would only be from starring in porn or working in prostitution. Nude modelling holds no such risks so why should it be considered bad? Simply because it's against your morals and the teachings of a dusty of book that should have been left behind a long time ago doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Fifth, I would be very bothered by a woman walking around bare-breasted. Not only is it against my morals, it's outright disturbing. I would never be able to concentrate on anything if I have a pair of breasts in my face.

Then I'd say that's your hangup. Just as me finding women walking around in Burkha's and Niqabs disturbing is my hangup.

QUOTE

Sixth, I never said having slaves is OK. I said that 1)Muslims must free slaves and 2)Slaves of Muslim wouldn't have it as bad as you may think.

You said that slaves in Islam were more like servants. Instead of saying "Yes, unfortunately that's a shameful part of Islamic history and something that no Muslim should think is OK in this day and age" you tried to say "it wasn't that bad". In fact just look at point 2 of your statement. I couldn't give a toss whether they "didn't have it as bad as I think" - it's immoral.

As to point one, that's just nonsense. The Qu'ran promotes slavery by telling people how to divide women and children as war booty. If it tells them to free them why is it also telling them to take them. If it was all about freeing slaves then why would it teach how to divide them up? Wouldn't it instead say "And those left alive, leave them in their freedom to live happy lives"?

QUOTE

Now, I suggest we stop this debate as, obviously, neither of us is going to change his opinion and it would be very tiresome to let this go on to infinity, which is probably what is going to happen.

I'm not here to change your opinion. I couldn't care whether you're a believer or not. The problem I have is you painting a rosier picture of Islam than it actually is. I have a problem with anyone doing this for any religion or political ideal (of which Islam falls under both categories).

 

[Jakob95]

In my opinion, women should be able to stay home and be with the kids. But in this society that is a really hard thing to do now, since you need more workers in the family to support the family. I do think that the man should be the one in charge in the house(such as if something happens its his fault, and he should make a higher income then her) but that doesn't mean the woman will not be able to make decisions. Plus what the hell would you do at home the whole day. Another thing women should be able to wear anything they want such as being half naked as you describe it. How do they cover themselves like that it would be so HOT in the summer. Plus I would honestly want to be outside seeing girls that are half naked then girls covering themselves(kind of gay if you would want them to cover themselves).

 

[TrolleyDave]

I totally agree that women should be able to stay at home if they want to, and you're assessment of modern life causing a problem is spot on. I just don't think the person staying at home should be gender specific tho. Men are more than capable of looking after a household and raising children so why not give them the freedom to do it. Putting a stigma on it is wrong. I've met plenty of women who prefer to go to work and support their husband because it helps them feel liberated from the age old stereotypes that religion and sexism has forced on them.

I disagree with you that "it's kind of gay" (I hate that wording btw) if someone wants women to be covered tho. I don't think gay men really care whether a woman is covered up or not! lol I think the covering up of women is more a case of men wanting to be in control, along with other reasons like men who are worried they can't control their lust (and that type of thing). Instead of blaming women for their shortcomings tho and forcing them to cover they should work on their shortfalls.

 

[Jakob95]

I totally agree that women should be able to stay at home if they want to, and you're assessment of modern life causing a problem is spot on. I just don't think the person staying at home should be gender specific tho. Men are more than capable of looking after a household and raising children so why not give them the freedom to do it. Putting a stigma on it is wrong. I've met plenty of women who prefer to go to work and support their husband because it helps them feel liberated from the age old stereotypes that religion and sexism has forced on them.

I disagree with you that "it's kind of gay" (I hate that wording btw) if someone wants women to be covered tho. I don't think gay men really care whether a woman is covered up or not! lol I think the covering up of women is more a case of men wanting to be in control, along with other reasons like men who are worried they can't control their lust (and that type of thing). Instead of blaming women for their shortcomings tho and forcing them to cover they should work on their shortfalls.

I know I was just trying to say a I would rather see a hot half naked woman, then someone being covered all over up.

 

[Pyrmon]

First of all, I recently converted. And you were one important factor. This thread made me believe more.

I'm happy to have been of assistance. Although I don't it believe for one minute, I have absolutely no doubts that you've been a Muslim for alot longer than this thread has been in existence. I have no problem with people converting to Islam nor Muslims in general. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. What I do have a problem with is people using both propaganda and Dawahganda. If you're going to promote something that claims to be "the ultimate truth" then you shouldn't have to tell lies to do it, the truth should speak for itself. The same argument holds weight for those who criticise it using lies to make it look bad.

However, if someone posts a thread like this attempting to scaremonger about the end of the world using the Abrahamic "Doomsday/Day of Judgement" myth I'm going to counter it. Nothing should be beyond criticism, specially religion.

Second, are you doing this on purpose? I'm seriously dumbfounded. The only reason that polygamy could be allowed is if the population is critically low. So it's to reproduce faster. Women, even with four husbands can only have one baby per year or so. It isn't faster at all. In fact it's slower because the married husbands can't go reproduce with another women. It makes no sense to allow polyandry in critically low populations. Unless you know of a method for women to have four children from different husbands at the same time.

I could say exactly the same thing to you. You are completely ignoring my question and point. My point is that regardless of the reasons Islam uses to justify this rule it still boils down to it being an inequal right. It is something the man is allowed to do that the woman is not. Therefore it is an example of inequality in Islam. And stop with the "It's only allowed if the population is critically low" because it isn't. Muslim men can have multiple wives in this day and age and there are 1.6 billion Muslims across the planet. Are you saying that 1.6 billion is "critically low"? If you are then me and you have a very different opinion on what constitutes "critically low".

Third, I won't follow the Hadiths, as they are unreliable, the first being written about two hundred years after the Prophet's death. It's the same reason we Muslims criticize the New Testament. I follow Islam in what I believe to be it's purest form.

Good for you, However don't promote your particular sect of Islam as tho it is the type of Islam that is generally taught because both you and I know that it isn't. If the average person was to walk into their local Sunni/Shi'a Masjid then most of what you're saying would not apply. Your sect of Islam isn't what the mainstream sects teach and promote. What you're doing essentially is tricking people. If you're going to promote those teachings then either say "the sect I follow" or name the actual sect that you follow.

edit : http://www.islaam.com/article.aspx?id=232

Fourth, that definition of beauty is per Hadith. I don't believe in Hadith. The definition I use is from knee to below the neck. There are still risks of STDs even if you take all the
precautions in the world. I agree it is her right to do what she wants. Anyone can do whatever the fuck he or she wants. I don't care. But if you want to be a Muslim, those jobs are off limit. Simple as that.

Then that's fair enough then. And the risk of STD's would only be from starring in porn or working in prostitution. Nude modelling holds no such risks so why should it be considered bad? Simply because it's against your morals and the teachings of a dusty of book that should have been left behind a long time ago doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Fifth, I would be very bothered by a woman walking around bare-breasted. Not only is it against my morals, it's outright disturbing. I would never be able to concentrate on anything if I have a pair of breasts in my face.

Then I'd say that's your hangup. Just as me finding women walking around in Burkha's and Niqabs disturbing is my hangup.

QUOTE

Sixth, I never said having slaves is OK. I said that 1)Muslims must free slaves and 2)Slaves of Muslim wouldn't have it as bad as you may think.

You said that slaves in Islam were more like servants. Instead of saying "Yes, unfortunately that's a shameful part of Islamic history and something that no Muslim should think is OK in this day and age" you tried to say "it wasn't that bad". In fact just look at point 2 of your statement. I couldn't give a toss whether they "didn't have it as bad as I think" - it's immoral.

As to point one, that's just nonsense. The Qu'ran promotes slavery by telling people how to divide women and children as war booty. If it tells them to free them why is it also telling them to take them. If it was all about freeing slaves then why would it teach how to divide them up? Wouldn't it instead say "And those left alive, leave them in their freedom to live happy lives"?

QUOTE

Now, I suggest we stop this debate as, obviously, neither of us is going to change his opinion and it would be very tiresome to let this go on to infinity, which is probably what is going to happen.

I'm not here to change your opinion. I couldn't care whether you're a believer or not. The problem I have is you painting a rosier picture of Islam than it actually is. I have a problem with anyone doing this for any religion or political ideal (of which Islam falls under both categories).

No seriously, I newly converted. At first I was trying to give you a Muslim's point of view as I know enough about the Qur'an to do so.

It's not because Muslims are marrying several wives that they should. As I explained, it's a extreme measure. It isn't something males have the "right" to do, it's a measure that must be applied in critical circumstances. In history, this circumstance only happened once. Call it unequal treatment if you want to, I call it a logical emergency measure.

In my point of view, the Shia and Sunni are the sects and I only follow true Islam. If you want to put a name on it, you could call it Quranism, but I prefer just Islam.

The Nikab and Burka is equally disturbing to me.

I know slavery is immoral. But, let's face it, slaves of Arabs weren't as harshly treated. Also, read this on war prisoner treatment in Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam

 

[Jakob95]

How about the Jews in egypt?

 

[bsfmtl123]

First of all, I recently converted. And you were one important factor. This thread made me believe more.

I'm happy to have been of assistance. Although I don't it believe for one minute, I have absolutely no doubts that you've been a Muslim for alot longer than this thread has been in existence. I have no problem with people converting to Islam nor Muslims in general. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. What I do have a problem with is people using both propaganda and Dawahganda. If you're going to promote something that claims to be "the ultimate truth" then you shouldn't have to tell lies to do it, the truth should speak for itself. The same argument holds weight for those who criticise it using lies to make it look bad.

However, if someone posts a thread like this attempting to scaremonger about the end of the world using the Abrahamic "Doomsday/Day of Judgement" myth I'm going to counter it. Nothing should be beyond criticism, specially religion.

Second, are you doing this on purpose? I'm seriously dumbfounded. The only reason that polygamy could be allowed is if the population is critically low. So it's to reproduce faster. Women, even with four husbands can only have one baby per year or so. It isn't faster at all. In fact it's slower because the married husbands can't go reproduce with another women. It makes no sense to allow polyandry in critically low populations. Unless you know of a method for women to have four children from different husbands at the same time.

I could say exactly the same thing to you. You are completely ignoring my question and point. My point is that regardless of the reasons Islam uses to justify this rule it still boils down to it being an inequal right. It is something the man is allowed to do that the woman is not. Therefore it is an example of inequality in Islam. And stop with the "It's only allowed if the population is critically low" because it isn't. Muslim men can have multiple wives in this day and age and there are 1.6 billion Muslims across the planet. Are you saying that 1.6 billion is "critically low"? If you are then me and you have a very different opinion on what constitutes "critically low".

Third, I won't follow the Hadiths, as they are unreliable, the first being written about two hundred years after the Prophet's death. It's the same reason we Muslims criticize the New Testament. I follow Islam in what I believe to be it's purest form.

Good for you, However don't promote your particular sect of Islam as tho it is the type of Islam that is generally taught because both you and I know that it isn't. If the average person was to walk into their local Sunni/Shi'a Masjid then most of what you're saying would not apply. Your sect of Islam isn't what the mainstream sects teach and promote. What you're doing essentially is tricking people. If you're going to promote those teachings then either say "the sect I follow" or name the actual sect that you follow.

edit : http://www.islaam.com/article.aspx?id=232

Fourth, that definition of beauty is per Hadith. I don't believe in Hadith. The definition I use is from knee to below the neck. There are still risks of STDs even if you take all the
precautions in the world. I agree it is her right to do what she wants. Anyone can do whatever the fuck he or she wants. I don't care. But if you want to be a Muslim, those jobs are off limit. Simple as that.

Then that's fair enough then. And the risk of STD's would only be from starring in porn or working in prostitution. Nude modelling holds no such risks so why should it be considered bad? Simply because it's against your morals and the teachings of a dusty of book that should have been left behind a long time ago doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Fifth, I would be very bothered by a woman walking around bare-breasted. Not only is it against my morals, it's outright disturbing. I would never be able to concentrate on anything if I have a pair of breasts in my face.

Then I'd say that's your hangup. Just as me finding women walking around in Burkha's and Niqabs disturbing is my hangup.

QUOTE

Sixth, I never said having slaves is OK. I said that 1)Muslims must free slaves and 2)Slaves of Muslim wouldn't have it as bad as you may think.

You said that slaves in Islam were more like servants. Instead of saying "Yes, unfortunately that's a shameful part of Islamic history and something that no Muslim should think is OK in this day and age" you tried to say "it wasn't that bad". In fact just look at point 2 of your statement. I couldn't give a toss whether they "didn't have it as bad as I think" - it's immoral.

As to point one, that's just nonsense. The Qu'ran promotes slavery by telling people how to divide women and children as war booty. If it tells them to free them why is it also telling them to take them. If it was all about freeing slaves then why would it teach how to divide them up? Wouldn't it instead say "And those left alive, leave them in their freedom to live happy lives"?

QUOTE

Now, I suggest we stop this debate as, obviously, neither of us is going to change his opinion and it would be very tiresome to let this go on to infinity, which is probably what is going to happen.

I'm not here to change your opinion. I couldn't care whether you're a believer or not. The problem I have is you painting a rosier picture of Islam than it actually is. I have a problem with anyone doing this for any religion or political ideal (of which Islam falls under both categories).

No seriously, I newly converted. At first I was trying to give you a Muslim's point of view as I know enough about the Qur'an to do so.

It's not because Muslims are marrying several wives that they should. As I explained, it's a extreme measure. It isn't something males have the "right" to do, it's a measure that must be applied in critical circumstances. In history, this circumstance only happened once. Call it unequal treatment if you want to, I call it a logical emergency measure.

In my point of view, the Shia and Sunni are the sects and I only follow true Islam. If you want to put a name on it, you could call it Quranism, but I prefer just Islam.

The Nikab and Burka is equally disturbing to me.

I know slavery is immoral. But, let's face it, slaves of Arabs weren't as harshly treated. Also, read this on war prisoner treatment in Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam

Have you converted?Pyrmon24

Everyone needs to get some facts very straight:

1.Islam only tells to marry more than one woman under certain circumstances.
2.Islam never initiated polygamy but it restricted it.
3.The time when the verse regarding polygamy was revealed women were greater in number and men population was low.
Then how would it be possible for a women to marry more than one man.
4.Don't judge Islam according to the present Muslim Ummah.
5.Not only women but men also have a certain dress code in Islam
6.No one is here to change the other person's opinion,the discussion on Islam is to answer those queries which are against it so everyone can have a better view of it regardless of it's image(which has been deteriorated over the years).
7. Islam wasn't created by Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W) but Allah Almighty,and it existed from the days of Prophet Adam(first human being).
8.Women and Men are given just(meaning justice) rights in Islam.
9.Islam has never restricted women to house work......she has freedom to do whatever she can that the man can do but it should be in accordance with religion.
10.In Islam it is said that,"Every Muslim is a brother of another Muslim."So every slave or servant should be treated like a brother..................and Islam forbids a person to treat them harshly.
11.Islam gave slaves just rights and recognition but it did not tell people to buy them or keep them as servants.
12.For the full understanding of Islam(not Quran) Hadith are to some extent essential and obligatory to follow(Only those which are authentic and aren't against the Quran.
13.Not all Muslims are Shias and Sunnis,I am a Muslim and i only follow the word of Allah.

 

[bsfmtl123]

A Muslim is encouraged to buy slaves their freedom.It means that Muslims should pay the masters of the salves to free them.
A Muslim can have a slave but there treatment should be equal and just.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.047.765

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.034.351

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#010.3901

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#015.4112

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...mt.html#004.092

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597

Yes, what's wrong with it?
If a women refuses her husband for sex without a valid reason then what would happen..................there is a possibility that the man may indulge in social evils such as

Spoiler

[censored]

or adultery.Who caused it to happen the wife....so she is punishable.

I have told so many times that Muslims bought slaves from those people who were cruel and treated them harshly and even if they did not..................then the slaves were dealt mercifully,helpfully and with affection.

 

[bsfmtl123]

How is this gender inequality?How are the responsibilities and rights unequal?Please explain!
A man should be respectful to a woman not because of her gender but her greatness.For example a mother, she is the one who gives birth(through severe pain),she is the one who cares for you,looks after and feeds you her milk.
Even then if you don't respect her than sorry bro Islamic teachings are not outdated or inferior but your thinking is.
She could have also been an abusive, negligent bitch who left you in a dumpster to die. Just being a woman doesn't earn you respect, being a good person does.

It is possible in a society like yours but it is something impossible in an Islamic Society.If she wanted to leave you in a dumpster to die then why did she gave birth to you....???It means that you don't respect your elders because they never tried to be good to u.What if your children don't respect you just because you never tried to earn respect.

Which societies and when did they exist?Were those people educated and civilized?If the answer is no then education should be finished as well there is no need of it,still then we can discover things like atoms,molecules and elements because many societies in past were successful.Over these years Islam has become outdated even if the Muslims were successful and ruled the world but those naked people were successful so there is nothing wrong in following there idea but following Islam is a problem.This is something very unequal.
We still do follow some of the things Islam teaches just as we still follow some of the things Christianity teaches. We don't have to follow everything they teach just because we follow some things. How detrimental could it possibly be for a society to not require clothing?
There was no discussion of race. Islam is not a race.

I don't follow anything Christianity teaches to every Christian.I am a Muslim and my duty is to follow the Quran.If it is not detrimental then stay naked from now onwards don't wear clothes and walk around naked.

Women walks naked at night....and there is a group of naked hoodlums(or rapists).....the police is also naked ......naked teachers are teaching naked students and naked children sitting next to their naked parents...........Wow! just a superb idea u have got there.....why didn't anyone else think about a naked society before u.....damn!!!!

QUOTE

All these things promote a desire for sex.
God forbid people would want to have sex and reproduce. I don't understand religion's obsession with sex. Desire for sex is natural. If we had no desire for sex the species would have died out ages ago.

Allah forbids sex without marriage........desire for sex at the age of 10-15 is too strong that you are sometimes forced to [censored] someone or cheat a girl........It also creates a feeling homosexuality........
That is why Islam orders marriage when your sexual passion is very high even if you are 15 years old or less.

 

[Magmorph]

You are intentionally making a straw man out of almost every argument I make and then acting condescending about it as the straw man burns. If Islam is perfect you should have to use so many logical fallacies to prove it.

 

[bsfmtl123]

You are intentionally making a straw man out of almost every argument I make and then acting condescending about it the straw man burns. If Islam is perfect you should have to use so many logical fallacies to prove it.

Same applies to you as well......I didn't find anything logical in your previous post.

 

[Magmorph]

You are intentionally making a straw man out of almost every argument I make and then acting condescending about it the straw man burns. If Islam is perfect you should have to use so many logical fallacies to prove it.

Same applies to you as well......I didn't find anything logical in your previous post.

Well, point out what was illogical about it without using a straw man.

 

[TrolleyDave]

No seriously, I newly converted. At first I was trying to give you a Muslim's point of view as I know enough about the Qur'an to do so.

Sorry, I just find that really hard to believe - no offence. I understand what you're saying about trying to give me a Muslim's point of view but this isn't the first time I've discussed/debated Islam. There have been plenty of people I've met who can give a Muslim's point of view but those people have actually also understood where criticism of Islam is necessary. Whereas you have always outright refused to criticise it. Your stance on slavery in Islam is a good example. I'm not going to call you an outright liar as that would be unjust and I have little more than a gut instinct to go on but my personal opinion is that you're being liberal with the truth when you say you're newly converted. I don't think you converted in the last few weeks though. Like I say, I think you were a Muslim long before you made those statements claiming you weren't.

It's not because Muslims are marrying several wives that they should. As I explained, it's a extreme measure. It isn't something males have the "right" to do, it's a measure that must be applied in critical circumstances. In history, this circumstance only happened once. Call it unequal treatment if you want to, I call it a logical emergency measure.

Again, this is not true. Muslim have been free to marry up to four wives since the introduction of the ruling. Yes there are certain restrictions, but it most definitely is not an "emergency measure". The restrictions are that the husband must be able to be just to each of his wives and give them all equal share of his time, wealth and care.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.ph...Id&Id=82971

In my point of view, the Shia and Sunni are the sects and I only follow true Islam. If you want to put a name on it, you could call it Quranism, but I prefer just Islam.

Sunni and Shi'a basically claim the same the same thing. A Sunni believes his is the true Islam and Shi'as and Qu'ranists are sects (and don't even get me started on what they think of Ahmadiyyas and Sufis! lol). Every person who follows a religion or a particular sect of a religion believe they're following the one true version. If they didn't then religions wouldn't be so splintered by sects.

QUOTEThe Nikab and Burka is equally disturbing to me.

Not only are they disturbing but due to the fact that humans absorb some vitamins through their skin when in the Sun it's also kind of unhealthy to be that covered up.

QUOTE

I know slavery is immoral. But, let's face it, slaves of Arabs weren't as harshly treated. Also, read this on war prisoner treatment in Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam

Like I say, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest how slaves were treated. Just the fact that they are slaves means they are being treated inhumanely. Say it with me - "The Qu'ran is wrong for promoting slavery as ok"!

Slavery should never ever be considered ok in any circumstances. Anyone who thinks that it can be justified even in the slightest needs to take a long hard look at themselves and the morals they have. I know you agree that slavery is immoral, which is a very good start, but you still attempt to justify Muslims owning slaves which is wrong. I don't think you're a bad guy, in fact I think your morals surpass those of your religion - I just think you have a problem questioning the morals of your religion because of your faith in it.

 

[TrolleyDave]

<!--quoteo(post=3711633:date=Jun 13 2011, 08:13 AM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ Jun 13 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3711633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone needs to get some facts very straight:

1.Islam only tells to marry more than one woman under certain circumstances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's misleading and a play on words. Those circumstances are only that they are able to deal fairly and justly with each wife, giving them equal time, care and money. There is no restriction on when and where other than that. <a href="http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=82971" target="_blank">http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.ph...Id&Id=82971</a>

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3.The time when the verse regarding polygamy was revealed women were greater in number and men population was low.
Then how would it be possible for a women to marry more than one man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but the law has never been cast aside because there is no-one who has the power to do it. Only "God" or a prophet can change the rule, and as Mohammed declared that there will be no more prophets then there is no-one capable of changing the rule.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4.Don't judge Islam according to the present Muslim Ummah.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Complete copout. Of course you can judge Islam based on the Ummah because the Ummah exists based on the various teachings/sects of Islam.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5.Not only women but men also have a certain dress code in Islam<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Men have more freedom than women when it comes to that dress code though.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6.No one is here to change the other person's opinion,the discussion on Islam is to answer those queries which are against it so everyone can have a better view of it regardless of it's image(which has been deteriorated over the years).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As I've said before, mine are not queries. I've queried and research all the things that I had doubts about. While I admit that my mind could be changed, for the moment these are criticisms. If the Abrahamic god existed and appeared before me I would still level these very same criticisms.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7. Islam wasn't created by Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W) but Allah Almighty,and it existed from the days of Prophet Adam(first human being).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's a belief caused by faith, that's not a fact. When you can prove to me that the Abrahamic god exists using facts rather than assumptions and faith I'll believe it. As far as I'm concerned all the evidence points towards both the Abrahamic god not existing and Mohammed having developed the Qu'ran himself.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8.Women and Men are given just(meaning justice) rights in Islam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So a Muslim is free to leave Islam without an repercussion's whatsoever? And people are free to criticise Mohammed and Islam in an Islamic society with any fear of any retribution? And Islam completely prohibits slavery? Are women free to dress however they choose and make a career path of their choice without restriction? Are women entitled to protection from their husband and a guarantee from the law that they will never be physically struck? Is a non-believer free to become involved in an Islamic government? Are women free to deny their husband sexual favours without "being cursed by the angels for a night"? Are women free to date whoever they choose, even if that person is an Athiest, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu etc? Does Islam see non-believers and Muslims are completely equal or does it state "the best of non-believers is not equal to the worst of Muslims" and "non-believers are the vilest of creatures"? Women and Men are not given just rights in Islam, they are given what it believes are just rights.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->10.In Islam it is said that,"Every Muslim is a brother of another Muslim."So every slave or servant should be treated like a brother..................and Islam forbids a person to treat them harshly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's all well and good, but what does it say about non-believers?

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->11.Islam gave slaves just rights and recognition but it did not tell people to buy them or keep them as servants.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did Islam say that slavery is immoral, unjust and should never be allowed under any circumstances?

<!--quoteo(post=3711649:date=Jun 13 2011, 08:26 AM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ Jun 13 2011, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3711649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3709938:date=Jun 12 2011, 06:45 PM:name=TrolleyDave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ Jun 12 2011, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3709938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3709777:date=Jun 12 2011, 12:56 PM:name=bsfmtl123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsfmtl123 @ Jun 12 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3709777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A Muslim is encouraged to buy slaves their freedom.It means that Muslims should pay the masters of the salves to free them.
A Muslim can have a slave but there treatment should be equal and just.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/047.sbt.html#003.047.765" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.047.765</a>

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/034.sbt.html#003.034.351" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.034.351</a>

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/010.smt.html#010.3901" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#010.3901</a>

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/015.smt.html#015.4112" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#015.4112</a>

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html#004.092" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...mt.html#004.092</a>

<a href="http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597" target="_blank">http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, what's wrong with it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You completely missed the point of why I posted those. Let me explain them to you and hopefully that'll help you understand.

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/047.sbt.html#003.047.765" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.047.765</a>

You said Islam encourages people to buy slaves and release them. The above is an example of someone releasing a slave and Mohammed telling her she would have gotten more reward if she'd have given the slave to someone else.

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/047.sbt.html#003.047.765" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...tml#003.047.765</a>

This is an example of Mohammed selling a slave. If Islam encouraged people to buy and release slaves then why did the "example to all man-kind" no do that very thing. Why did he not give the slave owner the money himself and release the slave?

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/010.smt.html#010.3901" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...t.html#010.3901</a>

Another example of Mohammed trading slaves.

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html#004.092" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...mt.html#004.092</a>

The above is a verse in the Qu'ran that discusses the freeing of a Muslim slave. It declares that if a Muslim kills another Muslim and the murderer owns a slave who is a Muslim he should free that slave as compensation for his action. If all people are equal in Islam why is a Muslim allowed to own another Muslim. Slavery is immoral, unjust and a crime against humanity. I don't care if it some dusty outdated 1400 year old book written by some bloke in primitive times says it's ok, the fact of the matter is that it's not.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a women refuses her husband for sex without a valid reason then what would happen..................there is a possibility that the man may indulge in social evils such as

Spoiler

[censored]

or adultery.Who caused it to happen the wife....so she is punishable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I had to re-read that a few times just to make sure you actually said what you did. Seriously, if you were stood in front of me when you said that I would have slapped you across the face for being so ignorant. The person who caused the adultery or the rape to happen is the man. If the man is so weak willed that he cannot control his own lust then he should take a long hard look at himself and learn to control himself. What you just said is an insult to both women and humanity and further proof that Islam teaches that women are second class citizens. You should be ashamed of yourself sunshine.

And that wasn't even the reason I posted it. I posted it because the fatwa states that a slave girl has no right to refuse her master if her master wants sex. How is that treating them fairly? Shouldn't women have the right to say no? Although your view above is more than sufficient to answer that question.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have told so many times that Muslims bought slaves from those people who were cruel and treated them harshly and even if they did not..................then the slaves were dealt mercifully,helpfully and with affection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And I have told you so many times that owning another person is unjust, immoral and a crime against humanity. There is absolutely no justification you can give for a Muslim being allowed to own another human being like a pet or a video game console. If you believe there is justification for owning another human being I suggest you take a long hard look at yourself because you have a warped sense of morality.