Roe V Wade has been repealed

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NoobletCheese

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All that matters is what the moral status of the baby/fetus is. If it has a certain amount of moral status then you can't just kill them because you don't want them around, no matter how desperate you are. If I dump a newborn kitten in your house that doesn't mean you can flush it down the toilet because you can't be dealing with an animal right now. Especially if someone else is willing to adopt them, and there are plenty of conservatives wanting to adopt babies slated for abortion which demolishes the argument that they don't care what happens after the baby is born.

People are pronounced dead if their heart stops beating for a certain amount of time. Ohio flips this around and says therefore life begins at the beginning of a heartbeat at 6 weeks.
 
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NoobletCheese

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So if all these things are considered public healthcare, then it stands to reason that the public should be involved in every aspect of the child's growth, correct? It doesn't make sense to call every respect of a child's development a public health issue but then only be active during the birthing process.

If people can't access healthcare for their children then yes that would be a public health issue in my view.
 

SyphenFreht

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All that matters is what the moral status of the baby/fetus is. If it has a certain amount of moral status then you can't just kill them because you don't want them around, no matter how desperate you are. If I dump a newborn kitten in your house that doesn't mean you can flush it down the toilet because you can't be dealing with an animal right now. Especially if someone else is willing to adopt them, and there are plenty of conservatives wanting to adopt babies slated for abortion which demolishes the argument that they don't care what happens after the baby is born.

People are pronounced dead if their heart stops beating for a certain amount of time. Ohio flips this around and says therefore life begins at the beginning of a heartbeat at 6 weeks.

So what are your thoughts on regards to the 10 year that got raped and became pregnant? In your eyes, should she carry it even though she "doesn't want it around"? Regardless of what happens to the perpetrator, do you honestly believe this 10 year old should go through with the pregnancy, even though there's a good chance it will kill her and the baby?
 

SyphenFreht

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If people can't access healthcare for their children then yes that would be a public health issue in my view.

I appreciate your answer but it didn't exactly answer my question. I'll ask again:

If people feel they are entitled enough to try and control a woman's pregnancy, shouldn't they also be involved in ensuring the care of the baby, pre and post birth?
 

NoobletCheese

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So what are your thoughts on regards to the 10 year that got raped and became pregnant? In your eyes, should she carry it even though she "doesn't want it around"? Regardless of what happens to the perpetrator, do you honestly believe this 10 year old should go through with the pregnancy, even though there's a good chance it will kill her and the baby?

Ohio allows abortion at any stage if the baby is a physical risk so I'm guessing that wasn't the case.

The way I deal with this difficult question is to flip it around and say how late term are you willing to go in rape cases? If we set a limit then we're still "forcing" a rape victim to give birth. If we dont set a limit then we can kill babies if no-one wants them.

Pro-life Youtuber "Awaken with JP" says if he was raped he would have an abortion, but also says that it is evil.
 
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NoobletCheese

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If people feel they are entitled enough to try and control a woman's pregnancy, shouldn't they also be involved in ensuring the care of the baby, pre and post birth?

I think it depends on the moral status of the baby/fetus and if they pay taxes to public healthcare.
 

SyphenFreht

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The way I deal with this difficult question is to flip it around and say how late term are you willing to go in rape cases? If we set a limit then we're still "forcing" a rape victim to give birth. If we dont set a limit then we can kill babies if no-one wants them.

So should the ten year old be forced to give birth?

I think it depends on the moral status of the baby/fetus and if they pay taxes to public healthcare.

If who pays taxes? The people wanting to control pregnancy?
 

NoobletCheese

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So should the ten year old be forced to give birth?

Failing to provide a service is not really the same thing as forcing someone to do something.

If I'm accidentally injured and need medical care, and you don't give me care, and my condition becomes worse as a result, I can't really say you forced me to become worse. I can say that you should have provided better care.

How many weeks pregnant was she? Does it even matter? Either way her autonomy is being overruled. Assuming 10 year olds have such autonomy — what if she doesn't want an abortion but the parent does?

If who pays taxes? The people wanting to control pregnancy?

Yeah
 

SyphenFreht

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How many weeks pregnant was she? Does it even matter? Either way her autonomy is being overruled. Assuming 10 year olds have such autonomy — what if she doesn't want an abortion but the parent does?

All valid points and questions.

Do you think she should be forced to give birth?


Should that same precedent be upheld across all topics of interest regarding both taxes and public health/safety? For example, since I pay taxes, should I be able to control:

Where religion is allowed to be taught and enforced?

What people are able to do in regards to the purchase and ownership of guns?

The administration and force of vaccines and masks?

All of these, in some situations more than others, can be argued as public health and safety issues. If it stands to reason that we should enact blanket laws on abortion because these people pay taxes, then it should also be true that these examples I put forth should fall under the same rules. That way, we can ensure that everyone follows the same rules, regardless of belief or background.
 

Lacius

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Failing to provide a service is not really the same thing as forcing someone to do something.

If I'm accidentally injured and need medical care, and you don't give me care, and my condition becomes worse as a result, I can't really say you forced me to become worse. I can say that you should have provided better care.
It isn't that someone is failing to provide a service. The state is saying that doing something to one's own body is illegal.

It would be like saying you got injured and needed medical care, but the state made it illegal to provide you medical care.
 

NoobletCheese

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Do you think she should be forced to give birth?

Nobody is forcing her to do anything. Failing to provide medical care is not an act of force.

Do you have a self-consistent position regarding rape cases?

If it stands to reason that we should enact blanket laws on abortion because these people pay taxes, then it should also be true that these examples I put forth should fall under the same rules. That way, we can ensure that everyone follows the same rules, regardless of belief or background.

I don't believe I've claimed the legality of abortion should be a function of whether taxes are paid.
 

SyphenFreht

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Nobody is forcing her to do anything. Failing to provide medical care is not an act of force.

I understand that.

Do you think she should be forced to birth?

Do you have a self-consistent position regarding rape cases?

Yes. I think if a person is raped, it's up to the victim to decide regardless of any other input what they do with the pregnancy.

I don't believe I've claimed the legality of abortion should be a function of whether taxes are paid.

You haven't. But that doesn't answer my question either.

If abortion can be considered a public health issue because people pay taxes to support these services, should that same logic be applied across the board?
 

NoobletCheese

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It would be like saying you got injured and needed medical care, but the state made it illegal to provide you medical care.

What if the state said abortion is legal, but no hospitals wanted to provide the service — is she still being forced to have the baby?

Yes. I think if a person is raped, it's up to the victim to decide regardless of any other input what they do with the pregnancy.

So a rape victim could have an abortion at any stage of pregnancy?

If an abortion can be considered a public health issue because people pay taxes to support these services

My claim was that if people are paying taxes to public healthcare, then they are providing care for everyone.

I can't currently think of a reason why taxes would need to be paid in order for something to be considered a public health issue. eg. Covid would be a public health issue regardless of whether taxes are paid.

I don't personally think abortion is healthcare as it's contrary to the health of the baby. Prenatal care is healthcare because it cares for the health of the baby. Abortion is more of a medical service in my view.
 

SyphenFreht

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So a rape victim could have an abortion at any stage of pregnancy?

In my opinion, yes.

I don't personally think abortion is healthcare as it's contrary to the health of the baby. Prenatal care is healthcare because it cares for the health of the baby. Abortion is more of a medical service in my view.

You don't believe abortion is healthcare in regards to the mother? Like at all, or just in regards to the baby?
 

mrdude

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Well most of us aren't cool with taking away someone's rights.
And by that you mean the right to live for some small human - some human too small and innocent to defend themselves.

LvM9C7O.jpg
 
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NoobletCheese

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You don't believe abortion is healthcare in regards to the mother? Like at all, or just in regards to the baby?

I would classify it as healthcare for the mother & unhealthcare for the baby. Not really caring for their health so much as ending it. Imagine being a doctor who specialises in both abortions and prenatal care. One patient would come in and you would be in the mindset of helping the baby survive, all smiling and lovey dovey with concern for the baby's health, checking their pulse and mothers vitamin levels with genuine concern as if the baby was a real person that you cared about. Next patient comes in and your mindset is now about the best way to harm their baby. Similar feeling towards veterinarians who work in slaughterhouses -- the only doctors who eat their patients. Is euthanasia healthcare?

In my opinion, yes.

Ok, but I think the burden of proof is going to be quite high given the similarity in moral status of a baby which is close to exiting the womb and one that has just exited it.
 

SyphenFreht

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And by that you mean the right to live for some small human - some human too small and innocent to defend themselves.

LvM9C7O.jpg

Your picture isn't wrong, but it is misleading. I can almost guarantee you without a doubt that anything looking like that isn't getting aborted unless it's already dead or causing death in itself or the mother.

At what point does a baby have the right to live, according to the Constitution? If conception is your answer, why? If later, then you would technically be ok with abortions as long as they were before a certain timeframe.
 
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