Discussion in 'User Submitted News' started by Pong20302000, Jul 14, 2010.

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  1. Pong20302000

    Pong20302000 making notes on everything

    Sep 8, 2009
    One's inner self
    From the Scene

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, it is incredibly ludicrous to compare the NDS scene with the PC
    Games scene, let alone XBOX360, PS2 and the DC. They are each their own
    independent and unique scene, each with their own restrictions and goals. The
    simple fact is, the NDS scene is not the PC Games scene, no matter how much
    you may want it to be.

    Protected PC games may need to be cracked, solely to get them working on a
    computer. Computer's have no external medium as to which homebrew, loaders,
    hacks, etc. are required to make a game work whereas the NDS does. The NDS
    requires a flashcart in order to play homebrew, load ROM's and do many other
    things. As you said "These Chinese manufacturers have only one model, to have
    the most compatibility as they ARE RUNNING A BUSINESS." - this is indeed true
    and they provide the end-user with a great service. As part of the role for a
    flashcart manufacturer, it is their duty to enable compatibility on ROM's, by
    doing so, they compete within their business model and this only benefits
    the end-user as they are able to play any ROM they desire.

    Sure, the reliance of a flashcard manufacturer to create compatibility is not
    what the scene may want in an ideal world. Twenty years ago, it was all about
    release groups making that compatibility via cracks (and by extension
    cracktros), but back then, it was still all about running things on computers,
    which is what the PC scene evolved from. The console scene, along with the
    handheld scene eventually grew apart and became its own entities, its own
    scene. Cracking will always remain a part of the scene, there is no denying
    the history of the scene, however, everything has to evolve eventually.

    With over 5 years of the NDS scene already, the paradigm has been rigidly
    established. Cracking has become a thing of the past and has not become
    necessary as most flashcarts can play protected games without having to do
    anything, and if there is a game that is unplayable, it is quickly rectified
    by the flashcart manufacturers so that they put to good use their own
    business model. Unlike the PC scene, the NDS end-user still has to rely on
    these flashcarts, as without them, they would not have a viable way of
    playing ROM's (excluding emulators). The PC scene is self-sufficient,
    therefore it requires its own cracks in order to remove any protection and
    maintain compatibility across a multitude of computer formats.

    The NDS Scene's paradigm has come to accept that flashcarts are a necessary
    facet of the scene and by extension the work behind each flashcart to bring
    the best compatibility for the end-user. Releasing pre-cracked games is great
    for the short-term, it may allow a game to work on many different flashcarts,
    but in the long-term, the flashcarts will have been updated and compatibility
    will have to be changed in order to suite every cracked game, rather than just
    suite the general repetitive protection methods that have been used over and
    over. An example of this is the DSTWO flashcart, it detects protection methods
    and bypasses them if it is recognised, thus the game will not need a crack or
    even a firmware update to create compatibility. This all goes without
    mentioning the compatibility problems that have been caused by intros and
    cracks themselves eg. saving issues, unplayability, blank screens, etc.

    The bickering of late has arisen from a single group, of whom had disappeared
    for a few years, only to return trying to enforce a way that once was. The
    simple fact is, things have changed since you were gone, they have all
    improved for the better. Just because you prefer your old methods and
    traditions, does not mean you are entitled to force the paradigm to revert
    back 10 years. As we said, the NDS Scene has firmly established itself and has
    moved on without you. Charles Darwin once said "Survival is ultimately
    dependent on the ability to change and evolve", simply put "Adapt or die".

    There is a reason why one ruleset won over the other, one is simply reinforcing
    the established paradigm of today's NDS scene, and the other wants to turn
    back time and pretend the NDS is equivalent to the PC.

    The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE even allowed the bickering
    group a chance at adapting to survive and here is how:
    * By allowing you to continue releasing hacked/cracked/introed releases
    * Allowing cracks to be made for game releases, however only as patches
    (which only benefits the end-user and brings the best of both worlds)
    Although, in order to fully adhere to the rules, all you had to do was make
    two simple changes:
    1. Include the region in the dirname (more on this later)
    2. Use RAR format for packing games (more on this later also)

    You argue that "Considering NDS alone is 5 years old and has been doing .zip
    from GBA days, how can you nuke for .rar overnight as well as region tagging?",
    by the end of the GBA's lifespan, it was beginning to show its age on the
    scene. The entire .zip and .diz format was becoming defunct, the scene itself
    had evolved and the .rar and .sfv format took reign solely for the reason that
    it provided greater compatibility, ease of use, more information and provided
    a method of file integrity verification. The GBA was still influenced by its
    predecessor when it came around, the .zip format was prominent and everybody
    was happy enough to use it. However, .zip itself is also a relic of a time
    gone by; its use originating from the BBS days. The RAR format simply has many
    more benefits for the scene, and by enforcing it as a rule, it will ensure
    releases are packed in a manner that strives for quality. Also the simple fact
    of the potential size of NDS games further makes the .zip format look vastly
    outdated. A 500MB .zip file would be prone to more errors and would not be as
    highly regarded by sites when compared to its equivalent RAR size (at least
    with RAR it can be raced much faster and have on the fly integrity checks).

    Lastly, the RAR format has not been introduced to the NDS scene overnight, it
    took one brave group (XPA) to see the benefits it provides and help positively
    evolve the scene. It took several months for groups to acknowledge the RAR
    format, accept it and use it. It has since proven to be a great format for
    packing releases and has shown itself to be vastly superior to the defunct
    .zip format.

    "On a region free system, region tagging is NOT required for the first english
    release. This has been done on XBOX360: Final.Fantasy.XIII.X360-Allstars, PS2:
    Black.PS2DVD-Allstars, DC: Sonic_Adventure_DC-KALISTO, etc."
    The NDS is marketed as a region free system, which it is. However, the games
    still have regions despite that advertisement. It is important to note the
    region within the dirname as this clears any and all confusion on the matter.
    Your rule "region tagging is NOT required for the first english release"
    derives from the history of the scene again and has been in common practice
    for at least 20 years (although never stated anywhere, it was implied). Once
    again, the NDS scene has established itself to require region tagging, this
    form of tagging has been used for decades and for a system such as the NDS,
    and to an extent the GBA and GBC, tagging is crucial. It is not like the PC
    scene where one version of a game will suffice, NDS games are developed and
    published with specific regions, although the regions have no importance on
    the functionality of a game (excluding the DSi), it does exist and would be
    foolish to not acknowledge it. By not including a region tag, you cause
    confusion and show your ignorance to the rest of the world (English speaking
    or not). The scene is global, and region tagging shows the rest of the world
    from where a game is from, therefore it provides more information on a release.
    So in an abstract way, it shows the scene some respect.

    Those games from other systems you mentioned, they all vary in their form of
    being free of region locking. The XBOX360 has what could be classed as "REAL"
    region-free games, Final.Fantasy.XIII.X360-Allstars being one of them. It is
    the same game, same disc, same version as you would buy in any English
    speaking country around the world, therefore it is not region locked.

    Black.PS2DVD-Allstars: Allstars always were living in their own world, they
    never used a region tag and it caused lots of problems for other groups at
    the time. Not to mention the PS2 does have region issues, therefore it is
    important to note whether a game is PAL or NTSC. This allows the end-user to
    know whether they can play it fine on their television sets or not or whether
    they would need to play with settings on their televisions to get a decent
    picture. At the time, televisions weren't as advanced as they are today, and
    if something couldn't play in its correct region, you would get cropping and
    frame rates issues.

    Sonic_Adventure_DC-KALISTO: The Dreamcast is far too old of a system to be
    bringing in comparisons for a modern system. The DC scene also has a world of
    difference to what the scene is today, whether you want to accept it or not.
    Back to the point, the Dreamcast had similar issues as the PS2 (ignoring the
    chronology here), PAL/NTSC, frame rates, cropping, it was all here. KALISTO
    did a great job at removing region protections and other things. Slightly
    digressing, in today's modern scene, a release like this one would not be
    tolerated; where the game has been hacked to a point where it loses quality
    (stero to mono sound and lowered bitrates primarily).

    Now to the fun part, as you picked apart the groups of
    The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE. Here we present you an
    analysis of the groups that signed The.NintendoDS.Release.Standards.2010-NDS:
    DFG: Inactive
    PYRiDiA: Did not sign (we asked him and a log of this has been saved)*
    SQUiRE: Inactive*
    XPA: Known p2p group (we have proof, or just take a look at the numerous
    scene-notices regarding this group already.)

    *Both of these groups had long since died, however, in one way or another
    (how, we will not go into detail here) they had merged with VENOM, who are
    also known as SUXXORS. So that makes FOUR groups being one in the same, out of
    a possible SEVEN groups. If you plan on re-releasing some ruleset with all of
    the recent joke groups you have created, you're not fooling anybody either.

    So how can four groups, two of which are groups who are incredibly minor
    groups that are relatively inactive (DFG and SweeTnDs) effectively create
    a ruleset that represents the NDS Scene? Simply put, they can't. Especially
    not when they choose to abandon the rest of the scene and pretend like the
    scene is in the year 2000 all over again.

    You also accuse a lot of the groups that signed
    The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE as being known p2p groups.
    However your accusations fall on deaf ears without any proof. And we know
    how good you are at being unable to find proof, even when it is given to you
    (see the recent Bokujou_Monogatari_Futago_no_Mura fiasco).

    Just because a group is inactive in releasing, does not mean they are not
    around (this applies to your groups as well, although we all know SQUiRE has
    long left being active on the scene). We have logs of every group that
    signed agreeing to the rules, even TRM and WetNWild who you accuse had never
    signed it, why don't you try asking the group leaders instead of relying on
    long departed former members to act on their behalf?

    As both rulesets were rushed to release in order to counter one another,
    The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE was distributed and signed
    by many more groups, therefore a larger cross-section and variety of the
    scene. Thus, it actually represents the NDS scene. BAHAMUT stated in
    Spongebob_Truth_Or_Square_USA_NDS-BAHAMUT that they DID sign it, however at
    the time were not aware of what other groups signed. This is not entirely
    true as the final version of the ruleset was distributed to everybody and
    they were given 24 hours to voice any concerns. Everybody was ecstatic to
    see so many groups named, but no issue had arisen regarding the background
    of said groups. EXiMiUS did agree, although their concerns were lost in
    translation (but we still love you!).

    The example you gave of unworking games is rather ironic. If you had bothered
    to read the nfo for Digimon_Story_Lost_Evolution_JPN_NDS-BAHAMUT, you would
    clearly see that it states "It works fine on DSTWO." The DSTWO has already
    been discussed earlier. The release in question may not work on other,
    inferior carts, but that is no fault of the scene. If it were released
    pre-cracked, how are flashcart manufacturers meant to update the compatibility
    and workability of their product in regards to game protection?

    How is anybody supposed to take The.NintendoDS.Release.Standards.2010-NDS
    seriously when the group that created it, don't adhere to their own rules?
    * "The release must work." This is subjective to individual flashcarts and
    firmware versions. It is ridiculous to enforce such a rule. For examples
    of this, just read any gaming forum relating to the ROM's (which we know
    you enjoy trolling) and you'll see a huge mixed bag of people who have
    it working and those who don't.
    * "The .NFO must include which cart(s) and relevant firmware the patch was
    tested on." and "Cracks should be tested, and it should be stated within
    the .NFO which cart(s) the crack was tested on." Many of your releases do
    not adhere to this rule, it is also a rule in the other ruleset, yet when
    nuked on it, you still refuse to accept it.

    We will not bother going into detail on the ruleset, as it is invalid and
    void anyway (meaning it is treated as if it had never existed or happened).
    This is for all the reasons stated above as well as a multitude of other
    reasons including:
    * Bad layout (multiple rules within one rule number)
    * Contradicting rules (details related to working releases)
    * No date and time of enactment
    * Insufficient amount of groups signed (see earlier paragraph for discussion)
    * Does not represent paradigm of NDS scene.

    "The first working release wins the race, that's how it
    is for 0day, PC and other sections, so I beg of you, NDS Scene, please evolve
    just as PC has with clone and cracked releases can co-exist."
    Once again, the NDS scene is not the PC games scene or any other scene. It is
    its own scene and follows its own evolutionary path. The branch that the other
    ruleset tries to enforce is a branch that has already grown long ago and has
    since died, it is no longer part of the tree of life. The branch that the
    The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE grows on flourishes and
    allows for both diverging factions to co-exist and live upon a branch of peace.
    It accepts everything the previous branch built (clean releases/cracks/etc.),
    and only denies the evolutionary dead ends (.zip format/misleading tagging/
    universal compatibility issues/unnecessary removal of game data/etc.).

    There is no reason why ONE group can't make two simple changes so that they can
    finally live in peace in today's scene which has evolved towards prosperity and
    success. Without accepting the rules, their battle will only continue on a
    downward spiral leading only to further ridicule. Act wisely, adapt and live
    peacefully. Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  2. pitman

    pitman Addicted to Magical Girls

    Jan 23, 2003
    Where rockets don't fall.
    So this is some sort of group wars about how to release DS games ?

    I found this part hilarious
  3. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

    pip Reporter
    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    Might as well also have the thing that kicked it all off (although I believe Houkago_Shounen_JPN_NDS-iND is the present "earliest known AP" rom).

  4. Hyperlisk_

    Hyperlisk_ GBAtemp Regular

    Jan 30, 2008
    United States
    lol, the NDS scene is a joke. Literally. The only, and I mean only group I even respect as a release group is BAHAMUT. Every other group is just so childish. It seems most "sceners" in the NDS scene have no idea what the scene is even about. BAHAMUT pretty much ruled the NDS scene once they came in.

    EDIT: I take that back, ACCUCiSiON(sp?), has caught my interest recently too.
  5. hova1

    hova1 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

    Oct 26, 2007
    Gambia, The
    i agree 100% with this, i can't believe some of my favorite groups signed The.NintendoDS.Release.Standards.2010-NDS
  6. alidsl

    alidsl I am now a lurker

    May 27, 2009
    Kanto - Pallet Town
    What the hell?
    I liked venom [​IMG]

    I suppose it's Bahamut now
  7. Urza

    Urza hi

    Jul 18, 2007
    United States
    You post this as if people care.
  8. Fabis94

    Fabis94 Xbawx playa

    Jan 5, 2009
    Lol sound like some immature scener wars. Jesus, releasing games isn't srs bznss.
  9. phoenixclaws

    phoenixclaws GBAtemp Fan

    Oct 10, 2007
    United States
    I am so amused [​IMG].
  10. Rayder

    Rayder Mostly lurking lately....

    Former Staff
    Jan 14, 2007
    United States
    Yeah, it's this kind of political BS that I try to stay away from.

    But I agree teams should just release the dumps clean and let the flashcart teams fix the AP. If the release group can fix a dump to work on more carts, make a separate patch and they can add whatever intro they want, but make it where you have to patch a clean dump with their fix, not force a "fixed" dump on you without a clean one to back it up. That way, once your flashcart's team fixes it, you can switch to the clean dump.

    Personally, I'm content to wait until my flashcart's team fixes AP in dumps to play my free slurpy downloads.
  11. fgghjjkll

    fgghjjkll GBATemp MegaMan

    GBAtemp Patron
    fgghjjkll is a Patron of GBAtemp and is helping us stay independent!

    Our Patreon
    Jul 7, 2008
    XPA a P2P group? Never knew that. Both ruleset didn't have every group's signature either rendering them both invalid. Looks like there still are no rules enforced for the NDS Scene [​IMG]
  12. Salax

    Salax GBAtemp Regular

    Jan 16, 2010
    United States
    So what do they mean by "known P2P group"?
  13. Master Mo

    Master Mo F.R.E.E.

    Nov 22, 2005
    Gambia, The
    Man Mo Temple
    This is exactly how I feel about this. Personally I don`t care who dumps anything, if it gets eventually dumped but the game should be available as a clean dump first and as Rayder said they could either provide a separate patch for the game immediately with the clean dump (which might as well add the intro...) or provide a patched rom (which should not be numbered) next to the clean rom...

    Other then that I don`t care for these things (didn`t even read the text tbh...), if I´m actually able to play the games [​IMG]
  14. fgghjjkll

    fgghjjkll GBATemp MegaMan

    GBAtemp Patron
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    Our Patreon
    Jul 7, 2008
    They are what you mean. They are groups who release roms via p2p and not through private FTPs so they're not a "proper group" and therefore shouldn't have any say over the standards of the nds scene.
  15. macgeek417

    macgeek417 妁眼のシャナ

    Nov 10, 2009
    United States
    ...why does it matter how they release their ROMs?
  16. juggernaut911

    juggernaut911 GBAtemp Slut!

    Jul 13, 2006
    United States
    Nice try, Nintendo.
  17. fgghjjkll

    fgghjjkll GBATemp MegaMan

    GBAtemp Patron
    fgghjjkll is a Patron of GBAtemp and is helping us stay independent!

    Our Patreon
    Jul 7, 2008
    Because otherwise there would be nothing to bitch about.
    Release groups couldn't have giant e-penis lightsaber duels
    Or something

    I don't get it either [​IMG]

    You could dump any rom and upload it to a torrent site. Would that make you proper group? [​IMG]
  18. Chris_Skylock

    Chris_Skylock GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

    Dec 26, 2008
    First, it was an anime subbing group war and now we have NDS release group war? what's next?
  19. Joe88

    Joe88 [λ]

    Jan 6, 2008
    United States
    pirating games

    serious business...
  20. GundamXXX

    GundamXXX Ergo Ego

    Sep 25, 2007
    This is funny

    NDS dumping is easy to make a rule set

    Dump clean roms, if theres a cracked version for a game release it under teh samenumber with addition Â

    Make sure you tag their region, why? Because the E games have multiple languages DUH

    and stop goddamn whining -_-
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