Religion. The Last Debate

[DeadLocked]

No
God(s) is a creation of human beings to explain the absence of knowledge of sciences etc.
If we knew about every single thing in the universe that was discoverable in the first place then there would have been no idea of such religion or it would have never caught on.

In short:
God is there to explain how things exist in the absence of the true reason things exist.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

I have been pondering about the dark ages and the time the RCC controlled essentially all scientific knowledge is;

-Would we be more advanced technologically today?
-Could the industrial revolution started earlier?
-Would polygamy and people like hitler existed?

maybe I should make a poll too

Nah, it's cool. I'll answer them for you:

Yes, of course we'd have more advanced technology today.

Perhaps. This one is a little harder to answer, however, in my opinion, I think it would have started earlier.

Possibly. Yes, Hitler would still be born. Whether he would come into power is another story and is a rhetorical question. To clarify, science doesn't bring out the best in people.

 

[Depravo]

Yes, of course we'd have more advanced technology today.

Unless we'd already blown ourselves to buggeration.

 

[KingdomBlade]

The universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.
-Stephen Hawking

QUOTE

Spoiler

EVIL AND SUFFERING

Probably one of the biggest hurdles for Christians and atheist is due to the insurmountable evil and incalculable suffering present in our world. We often hear and read the news about people tragically dying from an uncontrolled fire, a mother and her baby drowning, or innocent kids being murdered in school from an open fire. It's very difficult to imagine how God would allow all of this to exist much more blame him for not putting an end to this. It's even more difficult to reconcile how evil and God can both exist. When we look around it's not difficult to distinguish that evil is happening all the time and increasingly growing because we are affected by it everyday. The purpose of this is to discuss why evil and suffering exists and does it disprove God's existence? Before we discuss that, we must clearly define evil. Evil for once, is not a physical thing and in a sense, is not created. It's the absence of goodness. Evil is not some black shadowy cloud that lurks above us causing us to sin. It is like a donut hole. A donut hole isn't really a physical thing that exists but is due to the lack of matter in the middle of the donut. That condition exists when something is taken away. Cold is the absence of heat, dark is the absence of light, and sin is the absence of holiness. So evil is neither a physical thing nor a thing that God created. It is a condition due to sin. So since sin exists then can God exist? It's very common for someone to use the classical argument: God either is unwilling to prevent evil or unable to prevent evil because it exists? The popular thinking usually evolves to something like this:

1. God is all-powerful, loving, and perfect
2. A perfect, loving God would create a universe that was perfect (e.g., no evil and suffering)
3. The universe is not perfect but contains evil and suffering.

Therefore, God does not exist

Now a few problems posits with this claim. First and foremost, the presence of evil does not prove that God does not exist. Both can co-exist without contradicting each other. I want to illustrate that by stating the following:....

1. Barbers cut, style, and groom hair

2. There are people out there with shaggy and unclean hair.

3. Therefore barbers do not exist

See where I'm coming from? Just like messy hair, evil does not mean that God does not exist. Then one might take it to the next step and say, "Then why does God allow evil to happen and not stop it?" Now there posits another problem with this question and we will closely examine that. The answer lies with the concept of FREE WILL and misunderstanding of it. Free will is the most loving act of all and God is all love. We know that forced love is not real love. It's like forcing someone to marry someone at the altar. Now, is that real love? Of course it isn't.

So now let's go back to the answer. In order for God to stop all evil, he would have to interfere with one's own will. What if someone wanted to commit murder by their own free will? If God stopped them, He would then be violating His own love for us and His gift of Free Will. Let's take it a step back further- which evil then should God stop: some of it or all of it? Evil is evil no matter what shape, form, or degree including an evil thought. Evil actions are born from evil thoughts. In order for evil to not exist, God would have to program our minds to never think evil and remove our freedom of thought. Essentially we would be nothing more that robots with only one choice available: to make the right choice only! But once again, that wouldn't make us humans and that would not be authentic love. If you cause someone to make a specific choice than that choice is no longer free. God loved us so much that he gave us a choice to love Him back or not, to believe Him so or not.

Another problem with that is who is to say that God allowed all evil? You can prove this right now through a simple project. Look at a pen and pick it up....now was God responsible for you picking up that pen or did you make a choice and committed the action? It was all your choice. Part of evil that occurs is because of a self made choice. God didn't cause that guy to drink too much alcohol on a party Friday night and then caused him to drive home that resulted in killing someone by accident. It was entirely his choice and choices have a consequence of suffering or non-suffering.

Blaming God for someone's evil is like blaming parents for giving birth to their child that grew up and later on gave birth to another child that committed such an atrocity! So who is to blame: The parents, or their parents, or their parents? You might as well not have kids at all to prevent a potential suffering for them and for others in the future right?

If God is all powerful, then He would prefer to create a perfect world than a world full of evil...

Now, that is not necessarily true because of the hidden assumption and misunderstanding that the objector has made that an all powerful God can just create any possible world. All powerful does not mean you can do logical impossibilities such as create a round square. God is all good, all love. God can not sin and can not break His own promise. He never violates his own nature and grants us Free will. With free will comes the potential to choose evil. It is logically impossible to create a physical world with free will and not have the potential for sin to come into fruition. Even a beautiful hand-crafted vase has a potential to break and shatter but that doesn't mean that its created state isn't perfect. Furthermore, just because God didn't do something doesn't prove that He doesn't exist. If you didn't want to lift your left hand, does that mean you don't exist?

Inconsistency of the argument

If evil is evidence that God does not exist then the opposite has to be true. "If good exist, then God has to exist" right? That alone is not sufficient evidence and only proves that evil does not permit God from existing. Once again evil itself is not evidence that dismisses God's existence.

Why does God allow suffering?

A fallacy is that if all evil in the world was removed, there would only be good consequences. That is not necessarily true. We don't know that. But one should know that both pain and suffering is not all entirely bad. Another possibility is that God uses pain and suffering to help us grow and to forge us into excellence. For example: there comes a point where parents can no longer tend to their child's bruises and ouches, and that child must no grow and becomes tempered from mistakes, suffering, and growing pains. Virtue could not exist and have any value if evil did not exist. You can't be considered virtuous or moral unless you are tested with evil. Besides, if God removed all the pain and suffering in this world, we would all become spoiled brats having our own ways. C.S. Lewis puts it in this perspective: God is like a surgeon who operates on us and knows best on how to heal us. The entire surgical process is painful but we will be all right at the end. If God stopped in the middle of the surgery then all of that pain was in vain. Also, suffering and pain is sometimes necessary. Imagine a world where you never experienced pain. Every time you placed your hands above a flame you couldn't feel pain. You could burn to death. Finally, by definition, God has the attributes of all-knowing so He knows the final outcome and purpose as we are limited. We might not see the purpose for evil then and there or at all, but if God is all knowing and all loving, then He is in full control.

THE PERFECT CURE:

Based on what I have discussed so far, there is only 3 cures that could remedy evil and suffering in this world.

Cure 1: Eliminate mankind

Cure 2: Eliminate our ability to do evil

Cure 3: Provide us a way to be holy and give us the ability to do good thus eliminating or minimizing evil

I'm not going to further emphasize on cure 2, or even bring up cure #1. But I am going to leave it up to you to think about if cure #3 was already in motion.

Also, the debate about the Bible was fail. The Bible is not the only book which shows belief in a God. How about we debate about the Torah or Koran next?

Anyway, read the things in quotes.

 

[juggernaut911]

Religion thread. "NO HATRED ALLOWED LOL!L!az!!"
Have fun, mods.

People need to understand what faith is and that people put faith in things that some people do not.

 

[monkat]

-Would polygamy and people like hitler existed?

And what exactly is wrong with polygamy!? Moreover, what is so wrong with it that you equate it with hitler!?

 

[RoMee]

And what exactly is wrong with polygamy!?

pedophilia

I'm okay with the multiple wives thing but a 40 year old man having a multiple 13 year old wives is disturbing

but who would want multiple wives..one is already too many

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

Well, these 11 pages have almost been an interesting read. geoflcl made some very interesting points back there on page 6. However most of you are either quoting the bible or claiming that the bible quotes prove nothing.
The truth is, we have no evidence at all as to the existence of and afterlife or of god(s). What we do have evidence of, is that religion has been used as a weapon against other people from the beginning. These may be specific people, different religions, different countries, different sex. However, a problem percists that most children will follow the religion of their parents. They do this becasue they are tought only about that religion from an early age, folk who beleive in a god or an afterlife did not come to that idea on their own, they were told about it. Just because this has been going on for thousands of years does not make it true. You can quote a holy book as much as you like, but you must remember that this holy book (whichever one) was written by MAN thousands of years ago. Parts of these books have been changed or removed completely over the centuries, we have at least some evidence of this. The books that you quote are not the same as they were when they were written. That's not to say that they are not useful guides, however they should not be used as the ONLY guides.
If you are one of those who believe these books to have been dictated by a god, I would like to ask why you believe this, the book saying so can not be used as proof for the simple reason that they are thousands of years old and have changed over the years. There have been many opertunities of someone to write 'God was here' in them knowing it to be false.
for the record I do not believe in any sort of afterlife, nor do I believe in a god or gods. I feel that this contributes to me being a 'good person' in that I have no learned (through my religion) that I am automatically better than anyone else, or that I should pitty someone because of that they believe. I have no problem knowing that many many people around the world believe in these things, although I can't claim to fully see their point of view. I have trouble seeing that other people do not come to the same conlusion that I have, which as we know starts all sorts of problems. Atheism is afterall just another religion, the majorty of athiests believe without personal proof, that there is no god or afterlife. They have been told this by older generations so they axcept it.
But one thing does bother me a little, some religions claim that earth is the chosen planet and the only one to have life... even though each star you see in the sky probaly has a handful of planets. There are billions if not more stars out there, making many many times more planets floating around. Even if the smallest percentage of those are capable of sustaining life, I think I read somewhere the estimate to be around 0.0002%, thats still a heck of a lot of life supporting planets out there. Now granted, at the time these holy books were written MAN did not even imagine there could be life out there, surely that points to god(s) not being involved in the writing of these books?

I may have gone a little off track there, but maybe not. I cant be bothered to re-read what I have typed.

... crickey, make that 12 pages

Actually islam specifically says that Aliens exist. And most scholars actually believe that the quran that is currently being used is as it was when it was written.

QUOTE(Uncle FEFL @ Sep 11 2010, 10:34 PM) I'm not reading through twelve pages of bullshit, however:

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, he is not omnipotent.
If God is able, but not willing, he is malevolent.
If God is both willing and able, then whence cometh evil?
If God is neither willing, nor able, then why call him god?" -Epicure

That must have come up in the topic somewhere. I think it's a logical way to argue. Hey, religious people, argue that quote please.

As for my view, I'm not sure. Although I am an aspiring Muslim, the one thing missing is my belief in God. I have too many questions left unanswered about this.

This has been argued before, and if I may ask, what makes you aspire to become a muslim?

 

[monkat]

And what exactly is wrong with polygamy!?

pedophilia

I'm okay with the multiple wives thing but a 40 year old man having a multiple 13 year old wives is disturbing

but who would want multiple wives..one is already too many

I'm talking about straight polygamy - a man with multiple consenting wives, or a woman with multiple consensual husbands - or general partners, for that matter.

And honestly, the whole marriage thing isn't all that bad, you just have to find someone (or a few people) that you can stand for years upon years, and can do the same for you. Polygamy actually aids the situation by adding variety.

 

[RoMee]

And what exactly is wrong with polygamy!?

pedophilia

I'm okay with the multiple wives thing but a 40 year old man having a multiple 13 year old wives is disturbing

but who would want multiple wives..one is already too many

I'm talking about straight polygamy - a man with multiple consenting wives, or a woman with multiple consensual husbands - or general partners, for that matter.

And honestly, the whole marriage thing isn't all that bad, you just have to find someone (or a few people) that you can stand for years upon years, and can do the same for you. Polygamy actually aids the situation by adding variety.

I am married and one is enough
and I'm talking about religious polygamy compound

if you like multiple partners..muslim has that 72 virgins thingy

 

[TrolleyDave]

Actually islam specifically says that Aliens exist. And most scholars actually believe that the quran that is currently being used is as it was when it was written.

Admittedly I've only read it all the way through once, but I don't remember mention of alien life in the Qu'ran?

 

[Uncle FEFL]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

Actually islam specifically says that Aliens exist. And most scholars actually believe that the quran that is currently being used is as it was when it was written.

Admittedly I've only read it all the way through once, but I don't remember mention of alien life in the Qu'ran?

Sura 42 Verse 49 (42:49)

 

[Blaze163]

if you like multiple partners..muslim has that 72 virgins thingy

I see your 72 virgins and I raise you this.

 

[Tanas]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

Plus another good reason to choose Islam over Christianity is that you get to fuck 72 virgins after you die.

 

[_Chaz_]

71 Virginians.

 

[TrolleyDave]

Actually islam specifically says that Aliens exist. And most scholars actually believe that the quran that is currently being used is as it was when it was written.

Admittedly I've only read it all the way through once, but I don't remember mention of alien life in the Qu'ran?

Sura 42 Verse 49 (42:49)

I still don't see it? Unless you're referring to "the heavens" as space?

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

Actually islam specifically says that Aliens exist. And most scholars actually believe that the quran that is currently being used is as it was when it was written.

Admittedly I've only read it all the way through once, but I don't remember mention of alien life in the Qu'ran?

Sura 42 Verse 49 (42:49)

I still don't see it? Unless you're referring to "the heavens" as space?

This should clarify it:

Spoiler

In Sura 42,Verse 29 (42:29) of the Quran,we are told, "Among His (God's) signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,and the living creatures that He has scattered through them :and He has power to gather them together when He wills." (8) Before proceeding further,a point or two must be noted.The word "sama",translated "heavens",is also the Arabic for "sky".One may object that the verse refers to creatures in the sky (which would be birds),not in the heavens.However,birds are mentioned seperately from creatures of the heavens in 24:41, "Seest thou not that it is God Whose praise all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate,and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread?..." (9) In a note to 42;29,Muhammad Asad states,"In the Quran,the expression "the heavens and earth" invariably denotes the universe in its entireity." (10) The Quran mentions that inanimate objects also worship God:"Do they not look at God's creation, (even) among (inanimate) things- how their (very) shadows turn round,from right to left,prostrating themselves to God..."(16:48). (11) Therefore,may not the creatures spoken of in 42:29 in the heavens,be inanimate creatures of God.No.The next verse,16:49 goes, "And to God doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and earth,whether moving (living) creatures or the angels...". (12) The word translated "living creatures" here is the same as that in 42:29- "Dabbatun".Comments Asad,"The word dabbah denotes any sentient,corporeal being capable of spontaneous movement and is contrasted here with the non-corporeal,spiritual beings designated as "angels" ". (13) In other words,42:29 is referring to precisely the type of lifeforms that science is searching for,not some metaphysical entities.Yusuf Ali says,"Dabbatun:beasts,living,crawling creatures of all kind." (14) This is the same word used in 2:164,"...in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth...are signs for a people that are wise," (15) and in 24:45,"And God has created every animal from waterf them are some that creep on their bellies;some that walk on two legs;and some that walk on four. God creates what he wills..." (16) Commenting on 42:29,Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani says,"From the verse it appears that like on the earth,there are some kinds of animals- living creatures- in the heavens also." (17) On the same verse,Yusuf Ali comments, "Life is not confined to our one little Planet.It is a very old speculation to imagine some life like human life on the planet Mars...it is reasonable to suppose that Life in some form or other is scattered through some of the millions of heavenly bodies scattered through space." (18) From such remarks,the reader will realize that Muslim scholars are well aware of the fact that 42:29 clearly mentions the existence of aliens.

 

[monkat]

71 Virginians.

Trust me when I say that you don't want 71 Virginians. Horrible drivers. All stupid due to horrible public education.

@BOB:

You're an idiot. In many languages, especially in the past, sky and heavens were the same word. Ciel in French means both, for example.

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

71 Virginians.

Trust me when I say that you don't want 71 Virginians. Horrible drivers. All stupid due to horrible public education.

@BOB:

You're an idiot. In many languages, especially in the past, sky and heavens were the same word. Ciel in French means both, for example.

Uhh, yeah:

Spoiler

Sura 27:65 commands,"Say:None in the heavens or on earth, except God,knows what is hidden:nor can they perceive when they shall be raised up (for Judgement)." (22) This shows that,like humans,there are other creatures in the universe that will also be raised from the dead.We are told in 19:93-96,"Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (God) Most Gracious as a servant.He does take an account of them (all),and hath numbered them (all) exactly.And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgement.On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (God) Most Gracious bestow love." (23) From these verses we learn that there are alien lifeforms that,like us,will also be judged according to the works that they do during their lives.Among them are the believers.Therefore,naturally,there will also be those aliens who are unbelievers.The believers will be rewarded.The lifeforms being descibed in the above verses can hardly be expected to be microorganisms.The Quran is referring to creatures of a level of development that makes them morally accountable beings.They must be organisms possessing qualities which we would ascribe to intelligent lifeforms.

Don't just start calling people, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT idiots.