Release of the Mueller report is imminent, AG Barr has in-hand, judiciary committees being briefed

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by Xzi, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. Xzi
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    Xzi Virtual Bartman

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    I draw the line at taking care of US citizens' basic needs. Food, water, shelter, healthcare. These needs haven't changed in thousands of years, so it's not as though capitalists were unaware of them. Furthermore, this type of forward thinking saves us money in the long run, and turns individuals into more productive members of society. By depriving people of their needs, all conservatives do is kick the can down the road and ensure we'll have to spend more money to solve the problem later.

    This makes no sense. You wouldn't be getting healthcare from your employer under Medicare-for-all. You'd have guaranteed coverage, and you'd be free to choose different private coverage instead. The only difference is that private insurers would have to compete with Medicare coverage, so they would no longer be able to charge ridiculous mark-ups on their premiums. Thus it's a win-win even if you go with private insurance, as your rates would be lower.
     
  2. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    This is blatantly untrue. You know it, I know it and the senators who endorsed it know it. The Medicare-for-all bill eliminates the private healthcare market in the long run, it does not establish government-funded care, it establishes government-ran care, and there is a world of difference between the two. You would end up with the public sector taking over and the private sector limited to supplementary care for the wealthy, as it functions in every country with universal healthcare on the planet. In fact, this is one of the core components of the proposal, it's the intended result, so if you're saying otherwise, you're either lying, which would imply malice on your part, or you're ignorant, in which case you should read the proposal more carefully. As I said earlier, what I can ascribe to malice I usually ascribe to ignorance instead.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/...nsurance-medicare-for-all-bernie-sanders.html

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...ivate-insurance-booker-harris-sanders-voxcare

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/25/health/what-does-medicare-for-all-mean/index.html

    You have to look at the fine print, my friend. The public sector would be responsible for all hospital and doctor visits, *approved Medicare providers* are responsible for supplemental care, such as dental, vision or prescription drugs, as it is with contemporary Medicare, just on a national scale. It effectively eliminates private healthcare, or at the very least makes it completely unsustainable.

    As for the guarantee of food, water, shelter and healthcare, we tried that already. It was called the Soviet Union, turns out it ended up killing a bunch of people. To be fair though, in the immortal words of Sen. Sanders from the state of Loonbagia, "bread lines were good because at the end of the line you would get bread". Mmm... Yeah, no thanks. I've had enough of an experience with the state happily guaranteeing things to know a slope when I see one.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that your theory on how it would eliminate price fixing is also untrue. It would escalate it, tenfold. Instead of bargaining with insurance companies, hospitals would bargain with the government. Insurance companies are profit-driven, they look out for their bottom line and will always attempt to pay as little as possible, that's the whole reason why they exist. The government has no incentive to save because its pocket are bottomless - the government isn't paying for anything, the taxpayers are paying. In the end the government would be forced to establish government-ran facilities to put a stop to rampant waste and you end up not just with single payer, but also single provider. Naturally this would take many decades to fully unfold, but I digress - hopefully your country never goes down that rabbit hole.
     
  3. Xzi
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    Xzi Virtual Bartman

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    Sounds even better. The wealthy get what they want, everybody else gets to pay much lower premiums in the form of a slight tax increase. Good compromise between having what nearly every other modern first-world country has and still letting the crony capitalist fatcats have their "premium" healthcare option to lord over the masses.

    Holy fuck, what a crock of shit. You're seriously trying to go full McCarthy on me? You never go full McCarthy, bro. It's 2019, there are modern examples of government-run healthcare that work far better than the US' privatized healthcare system. More than a few of them. Call it Socialism all you want, that's at least somewhat closer to to the truth as it's Socialism-inspired, but the right has whined about Socialism for about 80 years now. The general populace is numb to all this crying wolf.

    On shelter, the largest homelessness study conducted so far shows that the US/individual states would actually save money by giving the homeless small homes. It seems counter-intuitive, but it makes sense when you open your mind to the idea, because you need an address to do many things, including applying for jobs. Not to mention that many homeless are veterans who want to work, but either their mental state or their circumstances will no longer permit it. Just takes a little help and support to get them back on their feet, and right now we're simply choosing as a country not to do it.
     
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  4. SG854

    SG854 ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪

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    Dude, he keeps saying the U.S. system is not Privatized. And you keep ignoring that. You're not even addressing his point at all. The European system has problems and degraded care. You're comparing their system it to the Expensive U.S. system which has flaws. What he's proposing is a system he thinks is better then U.S. and European. You're not addressing anything at all and are just talking past him.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Apr 24, 2019
  5. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    You didn't say "healthcare", you said "food, water, shelter and healthcare", as in all immediate biological needs, the needs that drive us to do just about anything. That's socialism. We can debate on whether healthcare is a right or a privilege, but that's not what you proposed - you proposed that the government builds a bunch of flats to give people "free housing", then starts giving away "free food and drink" and tops it off with "free medical care", for life. How am I supposed to call that, it's either socialism politely or freeloading in more obtuse terminology. I'm not "going McCarthy" on you, I'm making an inference on the basis of your answer, perhaps I inferred wrong, but I don't think I did.

    To be fair though, we are going in circles. As I said, I'm not here to change your mind, I simply find it stimulating to discuss these things with someone who is both respectful and diametrically opposed to everything I believe in. It was a nice chat, but I think we're detracting from the topic at hand. We've departed the Mueller investigation and gone into outer space, perhaps we should slow down a little and allow the thread to return to the topic. It's been a pleasure, really.
     
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  6. Xzi
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    Xzi Virtual Bartman

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    ...

    Water is already freely and publicly available. Food as well, through soup kitchens and charity/religious efforts. Is it really so ridiculous to suggest that we should get these people back on their feet so that they can become more self-sufficient?

    Because it's largely nonsense. I encourage you to watch the Adam Ruins Everything episode on this. Hospitals are not charging reasonable prices to insurance companies, and insurance companies are, at best, a price-fixing scheme themselves. The entire system is quintessentially capitalist; quintessentially corporate. Until Obamacare, you couldn't even get insurance if you had asthma or any sort of common preexisting condition. So these guys were even being picky and choosy about whose money to take.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Apr 24, 2019
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  7. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    How is water free? Do you not pay a water bill? Unless you're talking about water in a stream somewhere, or rainwater, in which case fair enough, but even those are often regulated. Arizona, Colorado, California and Utah imposed restrictions on rain collection due to the local climate. Yes, the state has usurped the right to take ownership of water that happens to fall from the sky, it's peak clown world.

    As for charity efforts and food kitchens, rock on - I support all of that. A big thumbs up to all volunteers and those who donate to those causes. I always prefer to give someone poor something to eat instead of giving them money. It might be my narcissism showing and perhaps I'm infantilising them by assuming that the homeless guy that faintly smells of booze is going to spend the money on, well, booze, but that's how I roll.

    Do I want the government doing that? Absolutely not, I want the government to do as little as possible. In my experience, if I want something done slowly, inefficiently and in a costly, convoluted manner, I put the government in charge of it and my wish is granted. When I hear "government-ran soup kitchen" all I can think of is the DMV. "You asked for food, I get that, but you ticked the box for an eye exam, so I guess you're having your eyes checked instead. Also, you're in the wrong queue, this one's for pregnancy tests, you have to take a number and go to the back of the line". Quaint. :lol:

    Now, for realises, let's get back to Mueller and his investigation into the involvement of Boris Badenov and Natasha Fatale in the 2016 election manipulation.
     
  8. SG854

    SG854 ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪

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    Air is Free

    The Vitamin D from the Sun is Free
     
    Last edited by SG854, Apr 24, 2019
  9. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    Yes, but the rich disproportionately benefit from it, so I propose air credits.
     
  10. Xzi
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    Xzi Virtual Bartman

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    Do you not have water fountains where you live? They're in just about every public building.

    There are already state/local government run soup kitchens in place in much of the US. Which goes back to my point: we already pay for homelessness. We could be paying less.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Apr 24, 2019
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  11. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    God no, that's not a thing in the UK. Even public toilets are scarce! Even if I did, I wouldn't use them - I'm not a germophobe, but I worked in a bar once. I know what goes into those sinks when the lights are out, and that's not coming anywhere near my mouth.
    Take a joke, will ya? :lol:
     
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  12. Xzi
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    Xzi Virtual Bartman

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    Lol, true. Not that the toilets/fountains inside private businesses are always better. That just makes it all the worse that we force so many homeless into using those options, though.

    :ha:
     
  13. SG854

    SG854 ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪

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    I question Adam Ruins everything. Have you seen him on the Joe Rogan podcast? The like to dislike ratio is huge. It was the most frustrating podcast I have seen on there. And his video bit about IQ is totally wrong. Intelligence Researcher Dr. Richard Haier completely dismantles the IQ video he made in his book in his book The Neuroscience of Intelligence. http://www.richardhaier.com. I question whether Adam gets his information right. Joe is science science science, and Adam is like well i'm not an expert but I disagree I heard from a friend who is part dolphin and part seahorse said..... It was so frustrating. He doesn't seem like he knows what he's talking about.


     
    Last edited by SG854, Apr 24, 2019
  14. Xzi
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    Xzi Virtual Bartman

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    I don't really know much of what he's like off the show, and I don't really care. On the show he has a team of writers and researchers, and his information is always cited.
     
  15. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Guru

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    Respectfully, if you're going to say the solution is to have a good economy and allow competition, you're not proposing a real solution. That's like saying the free market is a solution to consumer discrimination.
     
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  16. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    Sure, why not? Let's say that it is, the free market is the solution to most things.
     
  17. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Guru

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    We've seen time and time again that it's not. I've talked about it in other politics-related threads before, but the free market often didn't do much to curb racial discrimination.
     
  18. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    Yeah, you *said* that it isn't, I have completely different observations. The free market was not the issue for the Civil Rights Movement, the issue was the multitude of laws on the books that either encouraged or outright required establishments to discriminate on the basis of race. The free market didn't do that, Jim Crow Democrats and the Supreme Court did that. In fact, racism or discrimination is counter-intuitive in a free market system, it limits your potential customer base. Segregation happened due to wrong-headed policy, and it persisted because of wrong-headed policy.

    https://fee.org/articles/how-legal-activism-stopped-the-market-from-abolishing-segregation/
     
  19. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Guru

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    I was referring more to the private sector, since your point was about the free market.
     
  20. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    We've been trough this at least three times, on three different occasions, and I already know your opinion. I don't think there's any point doing this song and dance again, in a thread about the Mueller investigation, of all places.
     
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