Real Money Trading and Virtual Economics?

Have you participated in the real money trade?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 35.7%
  • No

    Votes: 27 64.3%

  • Total voters
    42

FAST6191

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Real Money trade or pay to win destroys a lot games. Even a lot Mmorpgs died or bacame less attractive because of it.
In my opinion someone who buys items or ingame currency with real money is just a cheater. Thouse ppl have a lot excuses why to do it in the end they only want get an advatage vs normal players because they are unable or just to stupid to do it legally.
Same goes for bot users. Why they even want to play that game if the most time a computer plays for em ? A lot bots are also used to farm items and in game currency. So every person that sells such things in big scale is using bots or buy thouse things from bots.
Bots are quite anoiying they also destroy the game experience for normal players, because they block hunting grouds.
Take the infamous Lineage2 and log in to a server you see so many bots in the quests hunting grounds u cant even finish thouse quests and if it takes quite a while.
They even reduced drops and stuff but this is only hurting normal players and so they loose a lot players.

So yeah i think in game currency buyers, -sellers and also bot users are retarded low life people. Because they are the reason a lot games die or get destroyed.

Real money trading and pay to win are two very different concepts.

Real money trading = players trading with other players using real world money.

Pay to win = games, usually free to download and start playing, that have things the use pays the company to add to their character/setup, however the game devs make it in such a way that if you actually want to get on in the game then you have to buy things from them. Note also that not all free to play games do this or can be considered this.

"are unable to do it"
I have a busy life of staring at the ceiling most days. However I can memorise a list of weaknesses and time my clicks well should I find the need. With all the good content, guilds and whatever else being aimed at max level players and me being able to contribute to that world does it matter so much if I started with max level stuff? Now I agree we had a similar discussion for pokemon where my reasoning was "it takes basically no time and no skill to max a pokemon" where for the average online type game discussed here does take an enormous amount of time and at least a tiny bit of skill to time things properly.

Now real money trading, and the things that rise up with it, may well have rendered various games considerably less fun to play. I can well believe that, the question is was it bad game design to not allow for/account for that?

At various points I have chucked a high level weapon/money/whatever for free to newer players when I am a high level one, and I was not certainly not alone in that. What difference does it make if the low level user causes this to happen with some money?

Much of what you say may be true, I have certainly seen evidence for it and in some cases I would agree it is pretty distasteful, but you seem to be setting about explaining that in the wrong way.

On every seller uses bots....
 

DSAndi

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Im aware that rmt and ptw are different concepts but it is kinda the same problem. Booth destroy the game experience for ppl that do not pay real money for extra featurues.
In booth cases you get an advancement buy paying real money. In booth cases players and cheaters pay money to win over players who did not spend money.
While free to play games offer offical advancement for real money it still destroys the game or its a bad game by defalut if u have to pay more and more money to go on.
Pay to win in this case is a faulty gamedesign so ftp people cant get up with the advancement u get by paying money.

RMT is just the illegal path that also kills good games.
Actually your lame excuse with playtime and game content at max lvl is something i herd so often and i dont agree with it.
If you have no time to play a time consuming game, then dont play it if u have doubts you cant compete. What gives u the right to ruin that game for other people by supporting RMT or bot use ?
Usually there is tons of content even in lower lvls and game is much more enjoyable if you accomplish something instead of just buying it.
Also you find a lot friends that can also help you with different things.
If i take that infamous Lineage2 RMT and Bots destroyed it as long with the last updates. The lvl85+ content is boring like hell and for PVP you can do vs bots or ppl with other 3rd party software. Even most other stuff at higher lvls is rtm 2 win or ruined by bots. PVP events like ceremony of chaos u cant do because bots register faster then you and they do it for the rewards.
Castle sieges ur cannonfooder for ppl with highly enchanted gear. Olympiad the same 1-2 shots ur dead.
At 85 u dont get much exp from hunting and even in a party is much more less. Not to mention the less drops because NC thinks Bots will stop farm if they dont get anything out.
So yeah all you do is log in do some quests for money and exp and then log out. No people needed at 85.
At lower lvls you can still see some of the old lineage2 much more fun but bots are everywhere.
When i started playing l2 10 years ago there where chinese farmers that changed to bots after a few updates.
I did well in L2 without spending real money (except from the monthly payment for game use back then) i got good equip and higher lvl chars and i did not spend much time either just casual play.
I may not have super equip like the RMT have but to play the game you wont need it. Only if u plan to pvp witch is only a very small part of the game.
To hit lvl 85 in L2 you only need 4 weeks of casual play now with all equip given and when 85 you have 50 mil adena just from the quests.

There is absolutely no excuse to use RMT in any game. People that do it are just cheaters and thouse are not players because they cant play without cheats.
If you like to play vs other cheaters you should do a game called cheater heaven and say u can win if u pay the most money.
I bet u will get rich that way (or not because u might spend all money u earned on some other game for cheating).
Then again how can a cheater create a game like that when he is not even able to play without cheats ?
 

FAST6191

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You say illegal but in reality it is at best terms of service and user agreements, many of which can even be contested as the dude that ran the website to facilitate trades mentioned examples of.

I am not sure they are game destroyers -- demos are seen to lower sales with the reasoning seeming to be "well I got mine". If I can my clicking on monsters fix or something from the more limited version then it might still play. Certainly there badly made pay to win games and you provide a nice example of one, I might even say the vast majority are, but it is not a universal.

I can compete at the high levels though, there is still something to be said for not having a 1000 hour entrance exam for it mind you. Supporting a potentially damaging system would be a potential negative, how about if I purchased it from "responsibly sourced" locations (say someone thinking about quitting the game)? Alternatively I share an account with a friend.

"Usually there is tons of content even in lower lvls and game is much more enjoyable if you accomplish something instead of just buying it."

Content sure, the really good stuff still seems to be reserved for the higher levels in almost all things I have looked at, I wish it was not (or would if I played such games) but it is not. Accomplishing things is often more satisfying than buying it, however I tend not to have a great sense of accomplishment for simply levelling a character up (it was likely always going to happen as most games got rid of death penalties of real consequence, though that is not necessarily a bad thing).

I disagree on there being "no excuse" and I disagree on it being cheating. Likewise "can't play"... for a game to work it tends to want to test some skill, for most games it is clicking faster, more accurately, possibly taking into account damage types.... we have presumably all played games, and if I can demonstrate I can do said test of skill then the rest of it becomes busy work/grinding. There may well be a game some day that would take many hours of actual skills but basically all games I have ever played are not that.
 

PlayerAuctions

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If you have no time to play a time consuming game, then dont play it if u have doubts you cant compete. What gives u the right to ruin that game for other people by supporting RMT or bot use ?


1) There is so much fail here, I don't even know where to begin.

You, are elitist. In fact, it is individuals with this type of attitude which make playing some MMO's thoroughly not enjoyable. Think about it. The goal of games is to relax, and entertain. Since when did gaming need to be exclusionary, or some exclusive club that some people could enter and some people couldn't?

It is narrow minded and entirely baffling to say... "Oh sorry, you have a full time job, and a family so you don't have 40 hours a week to play like I do to keep up in the game? Well too bad, go somewhere else". This is sad.

2) Sure, some people may abuse RMT to gain unfair advantages, but the fact of the matter is, you can have an overpowered character and still suck at the game. Having great gear does not automatically guarantee that you can own anyone. How do I know this? Because I love PvP, but I suck at it. B-) And anyone else who has ever bought something will tell you the same. If someone is so viscously overpowered, they are either one in a million, or it is a problem with overall game balance. Don't pigeonhole people or make hasty generalizations mate, logical fallacies are easy to spot here.

3) You may not even realize this, but you are actually a pawn contributing to an age old ideology that actually makes game publishers money. There are many reasons why a game publisher would not want to support their own secondary markets (lack of experience, lack of infrastructure, the low profit margins, etc. etc.), but the primary driver is that it makes them money. What happens when they ban all of those mega-gold spamming black market game accounts? Well, they obviously don't give up... they go and purchase more game CDkeys/licenses which directly profit the game publisher. I would estimate, that for a dying game like WoW, Blizzard makes a cool $100m in pure profit from the gold selling market. Like you, I am totally against mega-gold selling sites who engage in harmful practices to our virtual worlds, but I do not believe that all RMT is bad. In fact, we should be very careful about how we apply that term. For example, I wouldn't classify PA as pure "RMT" because it is realiticallty classified as "pure player to player trading".

So in essence, the game publishers are effectively using this idea to milk more money. It is greed. And it is easy to see this because they implemented the RMAH in Diablo 3, a non-subscription based game. How could they continue to make money off of Diablo 3 after all the gamers purchased their game licenses? By supporting a huge secondary market that was geared towards MEGA_GOLD sellers. Not only did they profit from the sales, but they also took the liberty of banning gold sellers just so they could turn even more profit, by said gold sellers purchasing even more CDkeys to stay in game and continue.

The gaming community is being raped by the game publishers, and many unfortunately do not see it. I do because I am in the industry and knows the ins and outs. When "Player to player trading" is more about bringing accountability to these game publishers, bringing about a more honest system of trading between users, and by forcing game publishers to go back to the drawing board and design creative "next level games" that don't propagate the same game design systems over and over again. Think about almost every major AAA MMO that has been launched in the last decade. They all follow the same game design principal as WoW (with a few notable exceptions, such as EVE).

I believe at the end of the day, people really need to grasp what PlayerAuctions stands for, because it is so much more than just "RMT". We are not just another "gold selling site". We support honest trades between gamers, and not just digital assets, but tangible goods as well as digital downloads.

With Player to player trading done right on PlayerAuctions, the end goal is to take business away from those companies which DO destroy our game world overrunning it with bots, and hacking/stealing player accounts, etc. etc. We are very much against this, and by supporting genuine player to player trade, there is a natural cap in the amount of gold available. It doesn't ruin economies, it cuts down on in game spam, it removes the need for botting and spawn camping, and overall it allows more people to enjoy the gameplay. I don't know about you, but my motto is "the more people to play with, the merrier".
 

DSAndi

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No im not a elitist, i have a full time job and a family and not much time to play games in general. Im also not in need to compete with others with equip or fashion style things.
I play the games for enjoyment and PVP is not a part of it for me in MMOs. I do PVP sometimes but i dont play that game for that only like most RMT users do.
I still can do well without RMT.
I have nothing between in game trades as they are part of the game. Usually a player would not trade a lot in game money or items for something that is not worth that price or item.
I dont see in game trades as RMT.
RMT is for me you pay real cash for in game currency or special items. It does not matter to me if the seller is a player or some professional seller like you.
While i can understand that a player that played legally want to make some cash for the time he invested the customer in my eyes is a cheater.

Maybe i see things different but to me a game is much more fun if i can archieve something. Everyone can pull out his pocket and buy stuff.
Where is the fun in that buy a end level toon with best equip and pvp sometimes ? Then u get bored and try some other game ? Ok if that is what you want and waste your money.

When i started to play Videogames the highscore did say if u are a good or a bad player. dont know how you can see a good player and a bad player in MMOs.
I beleave how he plays and acts and not what super equip he has. Even if he has some rare stuff he can still tell the story how he got it.
If you buy a toon at end lvl with best stuff what did u see from the game ? Some ppl cant even play that toon even with best equip. What you tell ppl when they ask how u got that ?
Must be a great answer to say hey i bought it for 200$ and the other person thinks: " OMG what an idiot".

RMT is, no matter what, the cause that games get destroyed, bot use, Account hacking.

If the big gold sellers get banned and need to buy more CD Keys great i hope they spend a million $ and get nothing back in return.

Yeah good exsample with Diablo 3. That game was a big fail and the auction house did ruin it completely. However you didnt need to use it and at the short time i played that game i was not able to pvp vs other players. So no real reason to use it. Diablo was always about playing for better loot. Story wise its fast done and gets boring after the 3rd time.
So there is nothing more boring then to farm just gold in Diablo3 to buy better loot. Its much more fun if u kill boss mobs and get a nice drop.
However i played that Diablo3 for like 1-2 months then it got deleted from harddrive. Still sad i bought it when it came out.
I heard they did change the loot and stuff but the game just sucks Diablo 2 was much more better.

Player to player trading will only need a service to anounce that you have this item and want to trade for some other if this feature is not in the game they play.
If any real money is included i mark the buyer as cheater.
I also wonder how you can tell that selling player is not a bot user ?
Beside that i did not look at your website or what kind of service you offer.
If you are involved in RMT you know my opinion.
I also dont like offical in game purchases but can accept it as long it wont affect gameplay and balance.
 

PlayerAuctions

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No im not a elitist, i have a full time job and a family and not much time to play games in general. Im also not in need to compete with others with equip or fashion style things.
I play the games for enjoyment and PVP is not a part of it for me in MMOs. I do PVP sometimes but i dont play that game for that only like most RMT users do.
I still can do well without RMT.
I have nothing between in game trades as they are part of the game. Usually a player would not trade a lot in game money or items for something that is not worth that price or item.
I dont see in game trades as RMT.
RMT is for me you pay real cash for in game currency or special items. It does not matter to me if the seller is a player or some professional seller like you.
While i can understand that a player that played legally want to make some cash for the time he invested the customer in my eyes is a cheater.

Maybe i see things different but to me a game is much more fun if i can archieve something. Everyone can pull out his pocket and buy stuff.
Where is the fun in that buy a end level toon with best equip and pvp sometimes ? Then u get bored and try some other game ? Ok if that is what you want and waste your money.

When i started to play Videogames the highscore did say if u are a good or a bad player. dont know how you can see a good player and a bad player in MMOs.
I beleave how he plays and acts and not what super equip he has. Even if he has some rare stuff he can still tell the story how he got it.
If you buy a toon at end lvl with best stuff what did u see from the game ? Some ppl cant even play that toon even with best equip. What you tell ppl when they ask how u got that ?
Must be a great answer to say hey i bought it for 200$ and the other person thinks: " OMG what an idiot".

RMT is, no matter what, the cause that games get destroyed, bot use, Account hacking.

If the big gold sellers get banned and need to buy more CD Keys great i hope they spend a million $ and get nothing back in return.

Yeah good exsample with Diablo 3. That game was a big fail and the auction house did ruin it completely. However you didnt need to use it and at the short time i played that game i was not able to pvp vs other players. So no real reason to use it. Diablo was always about playing for better loot. Story wise its fast done and gets boring after the 3rd time.
So there is nothing more boring then to farm just gold in Diablo3 to buy better loot. Its much more fun if u kill boss mobs and get a nice drop.
However i played that Diablo3 for like 1-2 months then it got deleted from harddrive. Still sad i bought it when it came out.
I heard they did change the loot and stuff but the game just sucks Diablo 2 was much more better.

Player to player trading will only need a service to anounce that you have this item and want to trade for some other if this feature is not in the game they play.
If any real money is included i mark the buyer as cheater.
I also wonder how you can tell that selling player is not a bot user ?
Beside that i did not look at your website or what kind of service you offer.
If you are involved in RMT you know my opinion.
I also dont like offical in game purchases but can accept it as long it wont affect gameplay and balance.


You're arguments are full of logical fallacies and assumptions, and I can see that you have your own opinion which is based on how you enjoy games. I'm glad you have a sense of enjoyment which comes from "achievement", even if it means you derive pleasure from grinding through games, and mindlessly plugging away through quest content that follows four basic game design elements (kill xx amount of this, escort this to this, deliver this there, or make this). That is it. Most game worlds are static (i.e. they do not change), and my actions generally do not affect the game world in any meaningful way (except EVE).

To me, this is boring. But I still like certain elements of the game. Beyond this, maybe I play a specific game because all of my friends are there. So if I do not have the time to spend grinding through killing rabbits, or if I conversely do not enjoy spending my time killing rabbits in order to keep up with the progression of my friends, i feel it is unfair for you to label me, or anyone else who engages in real money trade as cheaters.

The reality is most people who engage in RMT don't do it to get unfair advantages, but rather to a) keep their interest in the game going and b) to invest in progression where their time deficiencies do not allow them to. I am in fact, an authority on the matter, because where you might meet a few RMT'ers in your travels throughout your game play (i.e. those rare stereotypes), I interact with and service tens of thousands on a monthly basis. They are a class of people I would classify far from being "cheaters".

But yes, you are an elitist. You believe that the system, or gaming society should be dominated only by those who can invest time in a time consuming game (as you said), and everyone who doesn't equally enjoy grinding through repetitive and monotonous game dynamics as you do is essentially inferior and a cheater. That... is elitist. B-)
 

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Sorry but all you write are excuses why u think RMT is good. If you want to play a game that is grind based but wont spend time in that game why you want to play it anyway ?
To keep up with your friends that have time that you dont have ? Why that ? Your friends can help you so you dont fall back ... because MMOs are Teamgames for the most part.
An even if they help you to get the needed items you desire you will fall back in the level range. So what you will do then ? Let me guess you start botting or buy powerlvling.

I find your logic strange you play a game with content you dont like the grind, the errands, kill that amount of mobs to get this or that and pay real money to keep up with other people ?
How silly is that ? I play games i have fun with and i can enjoy.
So and because you like one aspect of the game ( the only that comes in my mind is PVP because u dislike all other stuff ) you go and buy some powerlvling and good items to kill players that did the long route and might loose the PVP because they lower lvl or have less goot items. Than you go out and say your the best.
Yes thats quite an archievement. Or i would call it cheating.
Its nothing different if u put in a code to get something you wont have usually or pay real money, beside ppl that pay money for such things are quite stupid in my opinion.

You have one big problem you search for a challenge but your unable to find it.
You think if you win PVP with bought items and lvls is something you could be proud of but in general you only earn disrespect when ppl see you bought your stuff with RMT.
Im sorry Mr. this is what i call a looser.

The challenge is to beat a game without cheating, get the highscore or play through the game with 1 credit.
I rather play with ppl that have less good items and less lvls then i, try to help em and together we progress and get better then with someone with high lvls and crasy equip.
Thouse leave the game soon after they realised the game has nothing for em ( because the content is boing to em) and in PVP they meet other cheaters that think they have to keep up or need the best equip to win. But then yeah they realise they cant even get up with the payed equip because they dont have the skills for it ( how can they know if they never play the game ?) or fight vs Bots or cheaters with bigger pockets.

Yes if you call me a elitist because i dont like cheating ok.
For me a cheater is not even a player and i disrespect em.
If your not good in something you need to train and this is also guilty in the game world.
Cheating is some easy way but you dont learn anything from it.
I think thats also the problem with em they realise they good for nothing but when spending a chunk of money and win a few PVPs they have a few moments when they feel mighty.

Well mate im sorry for you.
You dont have even a clue how to play games and what games u like and asume me i support monotone gameplay ?
I say it again for you but more clear. If you dont have time for a time consuming game, dont like the grind, the content, the quests and think you cant keep up with other players, why you even play it then ?

If you ask me i dont play games i dont like even if my friends play it, because i dont have much time to play and no time to waste.
I also dont need to keep up with other people, because its a game and what happens in a game is meaningless. If im bad in a game ok maybe im better then the other player in a different game.
Its great when ur the best at one game sure but not if you cheated and everybody knows it.

I think you dont even know how much fun you can have with a game in different ways.
 

FAST6191

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Sorry but all you write are excuses why u think RMT is good. If you want to play a game that is grind based but wont spend time in that game why you want to play it anyway ?
To keep up with your friends that have time that you dont have ? Why that ? Your friends can help you so you dont fall back ... because MMOs are Teamgames for the most part.
An even if they help you to get the needed items you desire you will fall back in the level range. So what you will do then ? Let me guess you start botting or buy powerlvling.

I find your logic strange you play a game with content you dont like the grind, the errands, kill that amount of mobs to get this or that and pay real money to keep up with other people ?
How silly is that ? I play games i have fun with and i can enjoy.
So and because you like one aspect of the game ( the only that comes in my mind is PVP because u dislike all other stuff ) you go and buy some powerlvling and good items to kill players that did the long route and might loose the PVP because they lower lvl or have less goot items. Than you go out and say your the best.
Yes thats quite an archievement. Or i would call it cheating.
Its nothing different if u put in a code to get something you wont have usually or pay real money, beside ppl that pay money for such things are quite stupid in my opinion.

You have one big problem you search for a challenge but your unable to find it.
You think if you win PVP with bought items and lvls is something you could be proud of but in general you only earn disrespect when ppl see you bought your stuff with RMT.
Im sorry Mr. this is what i call a looser.

The challenge is to beat a game without cheating, get the highscore or play through the game with 1 credit.
I rather play with ppl that have less good items and less lvls then i, try to help em and together we progress and get better then with someone with high lvls and crasy equip.
Thouse leave the game soon after they realised the game has nothing for em ( because the content is boing to em) and in PVP they meet other cheaters that think they have to keep up or need the best equip to win. But then yeah they realise they cant even get up with the payed equip because they dont have the skills for it ( how can they know if they never play the game ?) or fight vs Bots or cheaters with bigger pockets.

Yes if you call me a elitist because i dont like cheating ok.
For me a cheater is not even a player and i disrespect em.
If your not good in something you need to train and this is also guilty in the game world.
Cheating is some easy way but you dont learn anything from it.
I think thats also the problem with em they realise they good for nothing but when spending a chunk of money and win a few PVPs they have a few moments when they feel mighty.

Well mate im sorry for you.
You dont have even a clue how to play games and what games u like and asume me i support monotone gameplay ?
I say it again for you but more clear. If you dont have time for a time consuming game, dont like the grind, the content, the quests and think you cant keep up with other players, why you even play it then ?

If you ask me i dont play games i dont like even if my friends play it, because i dont have much time to play and no time to waste.
I also dont need to keep up with other people, because its a game and what happens in a game is meaningless. If im bad in a game ok maybe im better then the other player in a different game.
Its great when ur the best at one game sure but not if you cheated and everybody knows it.

I think you dont even know how much fun you can have with a game in different ways.

On the bolded part we seem to be having a discussion/debate on the relative merits of the subject so that is to be expected -- one person says something they feel to true and some justifications, another person says why that may not be correct and provides reasons, another person or the original person says why those might not be correct or accepts they are and changes their opinion accordingly.....
You seem to be of the opinion that it is categorically wrong, straying even into calling people names but whatever, and frankly you can be that way -- it could well be that we just have different outlooks on life and games and we will not be able to reconcile them.

Sure the bulk of the "average" playtime for a given game might be grinding. However the higher level stuff where I get to fight big monsters will my friends, properly act as a team and consider strategies beyond click lots and chug health potions might be all I want out of the game. If, assuming I can have "responsibly sourced", RMT then what is the harm? To come at it another way I have a bunch of games I quite like but I will never play the online version of, is this wrong, have I not played the game? Personally I really do not care for basketball but I am quite happy to shoot hoops with friends, is that pointless? I have any number of board games where we "house rule" out boring aspects of the game or aspects of the game that kind of break it, is this wrong? Even beyond board games this happens -- in Goldeneye "don't shoot anybody that does not have a weapon" being something we played to at one point.

You speak of a sense of achievement-- grinding for me just means I staved off boredom and RSI. Going a bit further I have a very nice mouse and keyboard that I can program to do some basic actions, in this case apply all my buff spells/abilities. If I use them have I now used a bot? They are certainly faster and more accurate than I can be and certainly more consistent.

PVP tends towards max level in most games, in better ones it has a level/item level cap as well, and ends up having a fair skill component. Going back to the start thing then on PVE it can tend towards a level cap as well.

There are things to be said but you seem to have drawn lines in the sand and/or taken an extremist approach to things. Doing as such is a proverbial red rag to a bull as far as people that are inclined to debate things or colour outside the lines from time to time.

Or if you prefer -- you do what you want, done right I am likely not harming people and I will do what I like.
 

Hells Malice

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*crap snip*

That is one gigantic blob of elitist bullshit.
I only skimmed but every line I did read was "blah blah my opinion is right and yours is wrong, because it is."
For one thing you seem to have no comprehension of what is even being talked about.

You're arguing much more with opinion than fact. You're attempting to force your playstyle on others and think that anyone with a different playstyle is wrong and stupid. That's juvenile honestly.

However i'd love to hear which MMOs you personally think are hurt most by RWT. Go on, list some. I'll shoot down every single one you throw at me if you'd like. I've played 'em all.
 

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