PSA: Do not try updating Atmosphere files from within HOS

[linuxares]

It would be nice if Atmosphere added an update folder where anything in it would replace the existing Atmosphere files at boot. Or have some sort of API where it will replace certain CFW files then force a reboot like how Nintendo does it with OFW. The way it is now is annoying because it means you can't update CFW if the only device you have with you is your Switch. Also makes it harder for people new to CFW to update. I still think a major reason SXOS was so popular was because unzipping Atmosphere files to the correct place is genuinely difficult for people who aren't balls deep in to this stuff like we are. It's amazing how incompetent the average person is with technology considering how we're surrounded by every second of our lives. If people were as good with tech as GBATemp users and scene devs like to believe Apple's Genius bar and Walmart's Geek Squad would be out of business.

Can't you suggest it to them via their Github and see if they say "OK" to the idea?

EDIT: Honestly, if it was possible to just add the zip file and it would update. It would save so many headaches for newbies.

 

[vgmoose]

AIO Updater makes use of a special RCM payload to update atmosphere while it isn't running. I believe it downloads the files to a temporary folder, and then reboots to the payload to copy them over.

Ultimately "updating atmosphere", like most homebrew stuff, is replacing its files on SD. The consideration here is just to do it when it's not running (such as from an RCM payload). MTP from Hekate is fine for this reason as well.

 

[CompSciOrBust]

AIO Updater makes use of a special RCM payload to update atmosphere while it isn't running. I believe it downloads the files to a temporary folder, and then reboots to the payload to copy them over.

Ultimately "updating atmosphere", like most homebrew stuff, is replacing its files on SD. The consideration here is just to do it when it's not running (such as from an RCM payload). MTP from Hekate is fine for this reason as well.

That only works on Erista though since R2P is patched on Mariko and Alua. Markio and OLED users make up a minority but not insubstantial amount of Atmosphere users.

 

[KiiWii]

fäck... oh well. AIO Switch Updater it is now on then.

Will this work too? I’m guessing the files that won’t copy are perhaps in use and that’s why they cannot be overwritten? Regardless the OP post is 100% right if you want to avoid issues, just pop out SD or use Hekate.

 

[linuxares]

Will this work too? I’m guessing the files that won’t copy are perhaps in use and that’s why they cannot be overwritten? Regardless the OP post is 100% right if you want to avoid issues, just pop out SD or use Hekate.

How it works is it downloads all the files, unzips them and then reboots into a special payload that copies the files.

 

[KiiWii]

How it works is it downloads all the files, unzips them and then reboots into a special payload that copies the files.

Cool, you still need to RE-RCM and smash afterwards right? That was the issue I had when I first used AIO. I thought it could be done, without needing anymore payloads.

 

[linuxares]

Cool, you still need to RE-RCM and smash afterwards right? That was the issue I had when I first used AIO. I thought it could be done, without needing anymore payloads.

Nay, it's not needed. I don't even need to use my RCM Injector even. Since it reboots to Atmosphere/Hekate/or whatever you setup

 

[CompSciOrBust]

Will this work too? I’m guessing the files that won’t copy are perhaps in use and that’s why they cannot be overwritten? Regardless the OP post is 100% right if you want to avoid issues, just pop out SD or use Hekate.

They aren't actively being used, iirc Atmosphere keeps a file handle open to stop you from fucking with them. In old versions you could replace them without issue since they didn't leave the handle open. They do a similar thing to stop you from messing with the cal0 partition. You could probably create IPS patches to stop them from opening the handle. Might piss of Scires if people start doing that though since he explicitly doesn't want people updating AMS from within HOS.

 

[urherenow]

AIO will only work on erista, and that's because it boots into an RCM payload. It's 100% because those files are indeed in use while the system is running.

So @linuxares joke is actually on you. If you're on ams 1.3.1, and upload 1.3.2 over ftp, you can reboot and the system will seemingly run flawlessly at first. But if you check system from there... it'll still say AMS 1.3.1. And you are likely to get a bunch of glitches and crashes and stuff at that point, when trying to install multiple .nsps, for example.

Most of the time, even an experienced user won't bother to check the version in settings and they will proceed to backing things up, formatting the card, copy the same files over... etc... and just assume the new version is buggy.

 

[Homlet]

That only works on Erista though since R2P is patched on Mariko and Alua. Markio and OLED users make up a minority but not insubstantial amount of Atmosphere users.

No quite, you can't reboot to payload, but you can reboot after having switched payload.bin to a special payload https://github.com/HamletDuFromage/aio-switch-updater/blob/master/source/confirm_page.cpp#L25-L37
All switch revisions are supported by my app!

 

[CompSciOrBust]

No quite, you can't reboot to payload, but you can reboot after having switched payload.bin to a special payload https://github.com/HamletDuFromage/aio-switch-updater/blob/master/source/confirm_page.cpp#L25-L37
All switch revisions are supported by my app!

Good to know, thank you.

 

[linuxares]

AIO will only work on erista, and that's because it boots into an RCM payload. It's 100% because those files are indeed in use while the system is running.

So @linuxares joke is actually on you. If you're on ams 1.3.1, and upload 1.3.2 over ftp, you can reboot and the system will seemingly run flawlessly at first. But if you check system from there... it'll still say AMS 1.3.1. And you are likely to get a bunch of glitches and crashes and stuff at that point, when trying to install multiple .nsps, for example.

Most of the time, even an experienced user won't bother to check the version in settings and they will proceed to backing things up, formatting the card, copy the same files over... etc... and just assume the new version is buggy.

Well I haven't updated via FTP for a while. Actually the last time I updated did the SD Card way. Since the card had been acting strange of late and it needed a chkdsk. So I proceeded to update Hekate and AMS at the same time

 

[Shadicluigi]

Agree and disagree because the same thing could apply to the USB C Port on the switch. if you remove your card a million times yes but once a month wont hurt. I always taken out my card and updated my files which is why I rarely update unless there is an URGENT NEED.

Still on 13.1.0 all my games work!

But the switch dock is literally doing that, the system is designed to be plugged in and out

 

[Aheago]

I always use the Switch All in One Updater without any issues. If I ever have issues, it's because I was too stupid to uninstall the home menu theme before proceeding or if a sysmodule wasn't updated. And even those issues are mainly if I update the FW, not Atmosphère.

AIO updater now gives a prompt if it detects an installed theme and asks if you’d like to remove it, before rebooting into the update payload

 

[Aheago]

It would be nice if Atmosphere added an update folder where anything in it would replace the existing Atmosphere files at boot. Or have some sort of API where it will replace certain CFW files then force a reboot like how Nintendo does it with OFW. The way it is now is annoying because it means you can't update CFW if the only device you have with you is your Switch. Also makes it harder for people new to CFW to update. I still think a major reason SXOS was so popular was because unzipping Atmosphere files to the correct place is genuinely difficult for people who aren't balls deep in to this stuff like we are. It's amazing how incompetent the average person is with technology considering how we're surrounded by it every second of our lives. If people were as good with tech as GBATemp users and scene devs like to believe Apple's Genius bar and Walmart's Geek Squad would be out of business.

There are other ways. I don’t use a traditional PC but you can still read your SD card using most phones/tablets

I used to use my galaxy fold, and Samsung s6. Until recently where I found out you can even use iPadOS! So yes this is a minor inconvenience but there are still plenty of ways to do things even for “new people to CFW”

 

[CompSciOrBust]

There are other ways. I don’t use a traditional PC but you can still read your SD card using most phones/tablets

I used to use my galaxy fold, and Samsung s6. Until recently where I found out you can even use iPadOS! So yes this is a minor inconvenience but there are still plenty of ways to do things even for “new people to CFW”

Apple has roughly 50% of the smartphone market share though and iPhones don't have built in SD Card readers so it means if you don't happen to have a dongle with you you can't update if all you have is a phone and your Switch when you would otherwise be able to connect to a mobile hot spot and update over FTP. Android is less of an issue since most people will have USB C to C cables but most new Android phones don't come with built in SD Card readers, afaik Samsung is the only company including them in every new phone they release. If anyone boots through Fusee and therefore doesn't have Hekate installed updating over USB C isn't an option. That's all just a convenience thing though and not what I meant when I said people new to CFW have issues updating.

I think most people have access to a traditional PC but even if you gave them detailed step by step instructions a lot of normal people would still struggle to update Atmosphere. Most people involved with the homebrew scene don't realize it but none of their friends are typical of the average person. People surround themselves with people who have similar interests and as a result you end up with a skewed perspective of what is common knowledge. If you pick some random person off the street there is a good chance they won't know the difference between a file and a folder, good luck trying to get them to extract the Atmosphere folder to the root of the SD Card, most of them won't even know what you mean by "root".
By having tools on the console to update it it's almost fool proof. They press like 3 buttons and it's done. If they have to manually update there is a lot more steps involved and therefore a lot more steps that something could potentially go wrong. All it takes is one wrong step for Atmosphere to not update correctly.

I have a friend who's relatively good with technology. They stream on Twitch, can mod games on PC, but when she tried to install Atmosphere it took them a few hours of failing before they eventually asked me for help. Even after we got AMS set up for them they were struggling to understand that A: once the console is turned off it is in an unhacked state, and B: how to install smash mods. Of course neither of those are the fault of Atmosphere but it just goes to show how even someone who's familiar with using regular technology will have no clue what they're doing when put in to an unfamiliar environment. Hell give any "hardcore PC master race LTT gaming wizard" Linux for the first time and they'll probably fuck up the file system repeatedly. If Atmosphere allowed on device updating these issues could be mitigated.

 

[deathblade200]

Nay, it's not needed. I don't even need to use my RCM Injector even. Since it reboots to Atmosphere/Hekate/or whatever you setup

my problem with a stock AIO (not some crap like deepsea which is another whole annoyance) is they also replace the hekate ini file which can lead to further issues for people. or at least it did replace it the one time I tried it which was long ago

 

[Aheago]

Apple has roughly 50% of the smartphone market share though and iPhones don't have built in SD Card readers so it means if you don't happen to have a dongle with you you can't update if all you have is a phone and your Switch when you would otherwise be able to connect to a mobile hot spot and update over FTP. Android is less of an issue since most people will have USB C to C cables but most new Android phones don't come with built in SD Card readers, afaik Samsung is the only company including them in every new phone they release. If anyone boots through Fusee and therefore doesn't have Hekate installed updating over USB C isn't an option. That's all just a convenience thing though and not what I meant when I said people new to CFW have issues updating.

I think most people have access to a traditional PC but even if you gave them detailed step by step instructions a lot of normal people would still struggle to update Atmosphere. Most people involved with the homebrew scene don't realize it but none of their friends are typical of the average person. People surround themselves with people who have similar interests and as a result you end up with a skewed perspective of what is common knowledge. If you pick some random person off the street there is a good chance they won't know the difference between a file and a folder, good luck trying to get them to extract the Atmosphere folder to the root of the SD Card, most of them won't even know what you mean by "root".
By having tools on the console to update it it's almost fool proof. They press like 3 buttons and it's done. If they have to manually update there is a lot more steps involved and therefore a lot more steps that something could potentially go wrong. All it takes is one wrong step for Atmosphere to not update correctly.

I have a friend who's relatively good with technology. They stream on Twitch, can mod games on PC, but when she tried to install Atmosphere it took them a few hours of failing before they eventually asked me for help. Even after we got AMS set up for them they were struggling to understand that A: once the console is turned off it is in an unhacked state, and B: how to install smash mods. Of course neither of those are the fault of Atmosphere but it just goes to show how even someone who's familiar with using regular technology will have no clue what they're doing when put in to an unfamiliar environment. Hell give any "hardcore PC master race LTT gaming wizard" Linux for the first time and they'll probably fuck up the file system repeatedly. If Atmosphere allowed on device updating these issues could be mitigated.

A dongle is like $5 lol I’m using a cheapo one from eBay with a usb a to usb c adapter

An adapter to plug it into is also like another $5 so that’s not an excuse. I’m literally using an apple device in the picture

Also it’s not hard to figure out if you read the guides and not just skim them. If I was able to figure out how to softmod a Wii and make the drive read DVDs back in middle school with broken and split documentation through multiple sites. People really have no excuse for not being the “average user” it just requires a few extra seconds of thought. Most mods smash bros included tell you exactly where to put the files. 99% of the time you can even just extract the zip to your root folder since the mod is already structured properly. Both scenarios the mod tells you in the description 9/10 times

and if you’re a “common person” it’s their own dumb fault for trying to do something without reading first. That’s like someone just taking their engine out of a car one day because it seemed fun, but now they are shit out of luck because they only bothered to learn half the process

 

[CompSciOrBust]

A dongle is like $5 lol I’m using a cheapo one from eBay with a usb a to usb c adapter

An adapter to plug it into is also like another $5 so that’s not an excuse. I’m literally using an apple device in the picture

Also it’s not hard to figure out if you read the guides and not just skim them. If I was able to figure out how to softmod a Wii and make the drive read DVDs back in middle school with broken and split documentation through multiple sites. People really have no excuse for not being the “average user” it just requires a few extra seconds of thought. Most mods smash bros included tell you exactly where to put the files. 99% of the time you can even just extract the zip to your root folder since the mod is already structured properly. Both scenarios the mod tells you in the description 9/10 times

and if you’re a “common person” it’s their own dumb fault for trying to do something without reading first. That’s like someone just taking their engine out of a car one day because it seemed fun, but now they are shit out of luck because they only bothered to learn half the process

If you're going out somewhere for a few days you won't want to take every cable and dongle you own with just in case an Atmosphere update is released while you're out. Even if that was a normal thing to do the hassle could be removed if there was an easy way to update on device.

As for the other stuff, now you're gatekeeping. If things were as easy as you're making out the ReSwitched Discord server wouldn't need a support channel and there wouldn't be people asking questions here on GBATemp. The Wii is one of the easiest consoles for the end user to mod because developers streamlined the hell out of the hacking process. That is the opposite of what has been done with Atmosphere. We had nice tools to update Atmosphere on the device and then Scires intentionally broke them. If a normal person wants to hack their console they shouldn't be dissuaded just because they're new to it. Everyone has to start somewhere, just like you did with your Wii back in middle school.

I'm currently studying Computer Science at one of the UK's top universities and I got my start in modding the Xbox 360. My family got our first PC when I was 10 so I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Did that stop me? No. It gave me a love for diving in to the inner workings of computers. That took months of persistence from a 10 year old just to get some shitty save edits working on Call of Duty, looking back it's a miracle I stuck at it. Now I'm writing my own UI libraries from scratch using OpenGL and Linear Algebra. Other people could fall in love with this stuff too, and I know some have, but making things difficult and them calling them stupid when they get stuck is hardly encouraging.

I find it arrogant and offensive that you would call a normal person dumb because they don't have the skills needed to enjoy a hobby that we take for granted. Exploit developers could say the same thing to us and then we'd be up shit creek without a paddle. Remember there's always a bigger fish and you probably seem more stupid to the likes of exploit developers as a normal person who doesn't understand our terminology does to you. How about you go touch some grass and learn what normal people are like? Maybe you'd learn some humility.

 

[Aheago]

If you're going out somewhere for a few days you won't want to take every cable and dongle you own with just in case an Atmosphere update is released while you're out. Even if that was a normal thing to do the hassle could be removed if there was an easy way to update on device.

As for the other stuff, now you're gatekeeping. If things were as easy as you're making out the ReSwitched Discord server wouldn't need a support channel and there wouldn't be people asking questions here on GBATemp. The Wii is one of the easiest consoles for the end user to mod because developers streamlined the hell out of the hacking process. That is the opposite of what has been done with Atmosphere. We had nice tools to update Atmosphere on the device and then Scires intentionally broke them. If a normal person wants to hack their console they shouldn't be dissuaded just because they're new to it. Everyone has to start somewhere, just like you did with your Wii back in middle school.

I'm currently studying Computer Science at one of the UK's top universities and I got my start in modding the Xbox 360. My family got our first PC when I was 10 so I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Did that stop me? No. It gave me a love for diving in to the inner workings of computers. That took months of persistence from a 10 year old just to get some shitty save edits working on Call of Duty, looking back it's a miracle I stuck at it. Now I'm writing my own UI libraries from scratch using OpenGL and Linear Algebra. Other people could fall in love with this stuff too, and I know some have, but making things difficult and them calling them stupid when they get stuck is hardly encouraging.

I find it arrogant and offensive that you would call a normal person dumb because they don't have the skills needed to enjoy a hobby that we take for granted. Exploit developers could say the same thing to us and then we'd be up shit creek without a paddle. Remember there's always a bigger fish and you probably seem more stupid to the likes of exploit developers as a normal person who doesn't understand our terminology does to you. How about you go touch some grass and learn what normal people are like? Maybe you'd learn some humility.

If you’re going out somewhere for a few days, you can wait to update your console, and if you’re taking a full console with you surely you can fit a tiny cable or two alongside the system if it’s that important to update straight away. So this doesn’t make much sense to me

I get everyone has different skill levels, but at the end of the day it comes down to research/reading both of which there is plenty of amazing documentation in different forms around. Yes there are discord servers but from helping others in these servers you’d be surprised at how many that ask for help, havnt even attempted to troubleshoot. You can go as far as even straight up link then and they will still say they are “confused” and ask questions that are outlined directly on the page

It seems like you want to cater to those that want to be spoon fed, not turn on their brain, drag some files and be off to the races. Which again is fine and all to an extent, but you can only noob proof something so much, and we are kinda at that point here with the switch

These reguides tell you exactly where to drop the files, and mods tell you exactly where to drop their files so that layeredFS can read them. Idk what else you’d want honestly. If someone can’t figure out file paths (which seems like your whole argument cause root is confusing?) than maybe those individuals need to take a step back, reasses their skills, and try and close that knowledge gap. Windows/OSX isn’t exactly hard to figure out and a Google search of “what is SD card root” would solve that in 0.2 seconds either through another website or even a YouTube video

But that isn’t a switch/homebrew scene problem. That’s someone going in with unrealistic expectations.