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  1. I'm NOT a Trump supporter - I accept the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    194 vote(s)
    67.1%
  2. I am a Trump supporter - I *refuse* Biden's presidency claim, Trump actually WON

    29 vote(s)
    10.0%
  3. I am a Trump supporter - I acknowledge that Biden won, but *THE LEFT CHEATED* so it's illegitimate

    14 vote(s)
    4.8%
  4. I'm a Trump supporter but I believe in the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    14 vote(s)
    4.8%
  5. Other (don't care / don't waste my time with stupid polls)

    38 vote(s)
    13.1%
  6. 289 voter(s)
  1. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    I will as soon as I get past the militarised police blocking the way. :lol:

    Honestly, have fun in the Tory fantasy. I understand that a blemish on the Iron Lady's legacy is hard for you to handle, but this is first-grade cope. The Ridley Plan grouped British industries by likelyhood of a winning strike specifically because of Heath's government getting the boot after a coal strike. British conservatives knew what was going to happen and acted in self-preservation, nothing more, nothing less.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan
     
  2. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    The police weren't blocking the way, the protesters were fully able to block access to the mines and attack people trying to go to work.

    I don't agree with everything she did, but it doesn't do me any good to perceive someone as an enemy and then distort my own views to always be the opposite. The other way round is not helpful either. I prefer to make up my own mind.

    I assume that you don't like her, but you like Trump?

    Planning for eventualities is what you do in power, rather than just tweet that someone looks funny and hope that they back down. Is it bad to be prepared for the worst? "It's unfair, they cheated by being ready!"
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  3. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    They were most definitely preparing for something - more specifically, preparing to dismantle British heavy industry, which is what they did, and did so poorly that there was nothing left after they were done. I was simply pointing out that it was systemic, which it was.
     
  4. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Surely if there is nothing left then they did a great job dismantling it??? You seem so conflicted you can't even keep your views straight within one sentence.

    None of your evidence shows that they wanted to dismantle industry, systematically or not.

    They wanted to improve heavy industry so it could survive long term, but the unions got in the way. I'm not sure that a better outcome was possible. Conservatives never cope well with state owned and government run companies because they are ideologically opposed to it. Republicans share the same view.

    I'm much more open to it. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/06/29/what-the-right-gets-wrong-about-socialism/

    I do accept that the Conservatives hated the unions and their ideology dictated how they responded. The unions equally hated the Conservatives and their ideology dictated how they responded.

    The Conservatives were however democratically elected. The strikes in Ted Heaths government had reduced the working week to three days due to power cuts, inflation was rampant and the miners kept pushing for more money while everyone else had to suffer with losing 2/5ths of their wages. The James Callaghan government faired little better. The will of the people probably was to end the trade unions stranglehold of the country.
     
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  5. elk1007

    elk1007 GBAtemp Regular
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    If the ballot manipulation is prolific enough to affect the election results.
     
  6. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Well that would be my interpretation, but where is the proof of that?

    How can it be the truth without any evidence?
    You can claim there is fraud and people might believe it, but that doesn't make it the truth.

    I'm sure there are irregularities on both sides, i.e. a Trump supporter who wants to "level the playing field" because they are convinced there will be wide spread fraud and so apply for a mail in ballot for a recently deceased relative etc. I don't think there is enough of that to make a difference.

    If there is wide scale fraud and it hasn't come to light by now then it's likely so well hidden that you'll never find it anyway and that could be for Biden or Trump.
     
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  7. elk1007

    elk1007 GBAtemp Regular
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    If there is no voter fraud, investigations will only confirm it.
    If it's too hidden to be found, an investigation won't hurt.
     
  8. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    No, you can't ever prove a negative & Trump will continue to claim there is fraud despite what the investigations come back with.

    Trump calling fraud before the election took place without evidence has already hurt.

    I do agree that all the legitimate votes should be counted no matter whether they were Trump or Biden, but shouldn't they have already been doing that?

    It would be much easier to achieve that without Trump tweeting his deranged ideas.
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  9. spotanjo3

    spotanjo3 GBAtemp Legend
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    I don't vote no one. For all are the corruption. DONT TRUST ANYBODY! They are the liars! and the fakers!
     
  10. Deleted User

    Deleted User Newbie

    I'm NOT a Trump supporter - I accept the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    The poll should have also had: I'm NOT a Trump supporter although it's possible he won.

    Just do everything legal, verify it and get done with it. The media doesn't get to decide who wins.
     
  11. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, NYT made that faux pas recently (in a twitter post).. ;) Media gets the tabulated results first and announces. :)

    The issue with 'let it go through the legal system' is 'several instances'. So if they'd get 4 cases not thrown out, and not dismissed from being able to retry to make their case at a higher court level - you might not have a president when its time to call it.

    At that point, US law says heads of states have the option to simply pick electoral college votes themselves, based on whose face they like.

    Which is an option to steal the election. Of course it would ruin democracy while we are at it - and of course Trump aids have begun easing him into the possibility to 'resign' by now but hey, who knows...

    Letting the fate of democracy ultimately rest on the shoulders of four random judges in four different states... What gives. Worth a try, ey?

    Or here is a better option, just file your best claims five days before the end of the deadline. Then blame courts for sadly having ruined democracy, because they havent been fast enough. Also a great option. (Trump Team is still filing new legal suits.)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  12. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Holy mandril, mother of god, this is convoluted.... (I'll better post it in here, rather than the Venezuela thread.. ;) )

    Entire transcript:
    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcript...-transcript-november-19-election-fraud-claims

    Trump administration just found out that electronic voting is problematic (thats why you have manual spot count checks - that, if they vary significantly from the electronically counted result, trigger a manual recount). They just found out that businesses are sometimes owned by shell companies. They just found out, that you count votes, when they come in.

    (What an over night backdoor vote influx has to do with voting mashine manipulation - i havent got the slightest idea. Criminals must be criminally stupid to stack the vote at 4am in the morning, when they can manipulate the algo.

    Or - as is alleged, they must be criminally stupid, because they cant tell the algo to stop in case more people than expected vote for one side. At which point, it is alleged, that people had to 'manually' shut down voting (in selected states), and then trigger an operation where you refeed 'certain badges of votes' into the vote counters, to fake the outcome, which then could be clearly seen by spikes in the amounts of votes counted at that time. (Alleged ballot stuffing.) But not only that, parts of those ballots were forged, because they had perfect dots/cycles on the name Biden!)

    All this 'found out' by people looking at (vote counting rate) data! Wow!

    NYT: Counterstance:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2020112...11/19/technology/sidney-powell-venezuela.html

    Also - this part is just grand:
    My firewall had a backdoor with variables, for thumbdrives, that ran an algorithm that probably ran all over the country, and that broke, because so many people voted Trump, so they had to shut down voting.

    Why isnt the FBI getting into this? (Quote: Rudolph Giuliani)

    (Also, as usual, please dont ban me for double posting. This is a separate news item. Thats current. And deserves a separate post.)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  13. erikas

    erikas GBAtemp Regular
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    I am a trump supporter. The simple fact is that with the ongoing lawsuits, claiming that biden won is simply wrong. I recognize that currently Trump winning does not seem likely, but it's also not impossible. Trump has not conceded, the electoral college vote has not happened, news about vote impropriety keep coming out, some of them might not be legitimate. I'm not gonna make claims before the actual results of everything are out.
     
  14. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Please dont ignore this posting, two postings above yours.
    The concerned citizen gambit gets really old, really fast - if people can point out, that you cant read.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  15. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Right, Kanye is still in with a chance when the electoral college meets.
    All the counts are done though, so apart from Trumps shenanigans then Biden will likely be inaugurated.

    https://www.waynedupree.com/2020/11/alan-dershowitz-scotus-trump-election/

    For those of you that don't think Trump has a strategy, or that he's just flinging stuff at the wall in hopes it'll stick, you're in for a big surprise.

    Well I'm not surprised, we know he has a strategy. What we don't know is if he's going to get away with stealing the election.

    For a country with a proclivity to remove presidents with a bullet, it would be unwise to overstay his welcome.
    Although his other option is going to jail for his crimes and he might not like that either. It's a high stakes game for Mr Trump.
     
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  16. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Also, news source used for first hit for 'transcript' for that press conference on google?

    rev.com featuring the Breitbart broadcast

    Original video embedded on rev.com:
    https://cf-www.rev.com/docs2/b5e5e0...mHpIt7wqVA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAITKMBCX3DV5275WQ

    Just in case the other media networks cut transmission again, probably.. ;)


    edit: First clear misrepresentation in the Giuliani video: "We were warned by president Jimmy Carter, that mail ballots are especially susceptible to voter fraud, about a dozen years ago."

    1. We - in that case probably is "the american people" not the Trump administration.
    2. The way mail ballots are especially susceptible to voter fraud is - that you cant guarantee that they have been 'anonymously' cast. So you cant guarantee, that a husband isnt looking over his wifes shoulder, when she is voting. This theoretically allows for 'work place voter fraud' schemes, where your employer demands to see how you voted, because - they can. This becomes a problem once voting culture 'changes' (voting anonymously isnt the norm anymore).

    3. None of those issues, are then used to make the case for voter fraud in the cases subsequently layed out by Team Rudy. If you've got alleged ballot stuffing going on - it doesnt really matter, if those votes came in per mail or not. If you then allege, that some of those votes where 'printed' with 'perfect circles next to Biden', it REALLY doesnt matter if those votes came in per mail or not.

    So why the heck do you open your press conference, with the deep concern, that you are fearful of that going on?

    edit: Also, it is alleged, that those ballots were basically 'one batch' that was repeatedly fed into vote scanners to be counted multiple times (vote counting rate spikes). If thats the case, why do you then also forge mail ballots with printed 'perfect' circles next to the name Biden? Do you dont have an intern that can make 1000 dots per hand? Cant you forge ballots with variations before print? Cant you separate a 'heavily democrats favoring bunch of real votes' to then repeatedly feed to document scanners? Which would be the case if they really came in through the back door from other precincts at 4 am in the morning - as also was alleged by rumors the press conference is referring to.

    So lets get this straight. You forged voting ballots. With perfect circles next to Biden. That then where wheeled in at 4am in the night at certain locals (and not stored there prior), which you then repeatedly fed to vote scanners, to multiply their numbers by several times, which then showed up in vote counting reporting spikes -- and this was only possible because of 'vote per mail' being very susceptible to voter fraud.

    Not because Jim had a batch of freshly printed votes standing by - and the backdoor unlocked.

    And that was the backup, for the case, that your vote manipulation algorithm failed, because it couldnt deal with 'that many Trump votes' so voting centers had to be shut down manually (for statistical manipulation checks not to trigger). You caught that at the night of the vote - just in time. And had the ballots ready that Jim printed, but werent able to tell the algo, to just stop after a set amount of votes, when you programmed it?

    Because for that you actually had to manually shut down those specific voting places?

    Hell of a story, HELL of a story.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  17. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Manipulating people. Everything he says is about manipulating people. If I was a Trump supporter I would gladly be manipulated by him as it would fit my narrative.

    His claim of a 200% over vote on the wayne county election doesn't seem to tie up with the figures available online. But I guess lying on TV isn't illegal. The woman seems to be scared about communism.

    We need to take a stand, My Cousin Vinny is ours.
     
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  18. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Second clear misrepresentation is around minute 25, when Giuliani talks about "we have 100 affidavits - that show 'just that' (tripple counting votes that came in at 4 am in the night, when all republican vote checkers but two had gone) - in four other states -- or that they were forced to not check ballots integrity, or that were forced to not ceck signatures, or that were instructed to count votes, without the inner envelope - or....

    This is a manipulation method called 'grouping'. You dont have 100 affidavits that report on the most heinous of crimes, the one including the "Dominion" voting machine company (writing a cheating algorithm). So you group them with other affidavits you've got, and make them sound like they all support the same ("we've got 100 affidavits supporting this -- and other alleged schemes (at the end of the third nested sentence following the original statement)".
    --

    edit:

    Short summery about half into the press conference.

    All instances, where Giuliani alleges schemes, where voting inspectors were prevented from checking mail in ballots at the time of separating them from the outer envelopes, or told that they would not have to be present at that time, all cases where voting inspectors were instructed to not check signatures, or backdate, or not invalidate invalid votes -- are reasons for a repeat election in that precinct.

    If you can make that case - good. But none of that is necessarily structural. As with all instances of 'stupid people' in the process.

    And please, let me emphasize on 'stupid people', because if you are a vote inspector, and you are instructed to not follow the voting process - this means, that you have no idea of the voting process, and could potentially be hoodwinked into doing something fraudulent by an authority figure as unimportant as your supervisor.

    If thats the case - close down all democracies. Now. Or just the one in the US specifically, because people there are premo stupid. And this INCLUDES getting talked out of being present at the time, when outer mail in envelopes are signature checked and opened.


    All cases where voter participation has reached 150-200+% of registered voters - are immediately suspect and have to be suspect to an investigation as well.
    -

    That said

    - the claim that 'voting inspectors were not allowed in certain states' is manipulative. What is meant is independent (trigger word - foreign) voting inspectors from the UN. Why the US does that - I have no clue, but that didnt start with Trump. That also doesnt mean, that _no_ vote inspectors were allowed to look at procedures. A democratic vote without inspectors from both sides - doesnt work.

    - all structural voting fraud claims (where one scheme would have been used to turn the election in several places at once) - are completely stupid - the way they are explained by Rudy (and Sidney Powell) they follow no inherent process logic, and seem to be cobbled together with a bunch of different claims, not making any sense if you add them up. This means, that argument - likely - is constructed.

    Also - if you really litigate every precinct after every election in every county (not just the 'close' ones, but also ones which largely favored dems over reps in counties of every state you want the vote to flip in), and you only do this for 'possible statistical anomalies' favoring one party, but not the other one - you end up with a biased outcome as well. And months of time spent on legal litigation after every election. Doing this basically disables democracy - and lets a winner be decided by heads of states, while the cases are stranded in the courts.

    Its very important - for democracy to work - that people counting the votes, and inspecting the count - KNOW that they cant forge them, or 'not only follow some rules', or be molded in their action to the point they become illegal - by 'their supervisors'.

    If that happens in any democracy - democracy is over, and americans have to be pronounced 'too stupid, to be allowed to have it'.

    If thats the problem (most probable accusations Giuliani made), good luck, and good night.
    --

    edit:

    Isnt it wonderful - when a 60 year old women discovers how computers work for the first time in front of national TV cameras?

    (Because this is an inherent problem with all voting software/computers. One that cant be designed away.)

    They found that out, by finding and reading the manual of those machines online on google - btw. Now. Just so you know.

    While these issues have been discussed in the senate as early as 2006. Then nobody did anything about it, because fixing it cost money. And acknowledging, that this is an inherent problem with voting machines, and that paper was better (because the process is transparent and not subject to be only understood by the high priest that wrote the 'hardware security module' - i.e. the guy/gal that doesnt need a 'drag and drop interface'.)

    So what do you say? Lets end democracy, because of them - why dont we? I mean - as long as there is a possibility still not debunked, that could have impacted outcome...
    --
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  19. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Sorry: But this really needs to be put in a separate thread, otherwise its confusing.

    New angle:

    CISA is making factually wrong claims. Thats fun.

    src: https://www.cisa.gov/rumorcontrol

    They usually dont mandate software to be provided as open source. They cant really test. And 'certifying' machines makes them inherently unsafe and hackable - because you dont allow for security updates to be administered. You basically seal them 'as is', without knowing what 'as is' means. (No source code audits.)

    Then you dont protect them from many attack vectors. (No security updates.)

    In fact the ecosystems of those companies are layed out to cobble together the cheapest Win 95 machines, and then not caring about anything (no patches), other than 'system brake down within the warranty period'.

    Logs can be forged, software checks can be overrun. Hey, if you are admin, you are admin.

    Spot checks and statistical sanity checks are done - but again, if you know them, you could work around them (Stay within a certain parameter of probability).

    Absolutely not. What they can say is. 'Computer says no' and thats about all of it.

    The actual response to those claims is - "we have not found any indication of those attack vectors being widely used, ever". And thats all.

    Some of it you can mitigate, by a certain update regime (signature checks, only allow one 'certified' person to roll out updates), but some of those mitigations are null and void by the fact that those machines are 'certified' (as is) and therefore never updated. Of course NEVER connect an unpatched machine to the internet, especially not for updates, stuff like that.

    But the explaination that 'all is good, because of logs, and statistical spot checks' is absolutely false.

    Fun.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  20. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    I tried to find a news article and all I could find was around 200 suspect ballots which led to an over count of 40.

    It's like a bait and switch.
     
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