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  1. I'm NOT a Trump supporter - I accept the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    194 vote(s)
    67.1%
  2. I am a Trump supporter - I *refuse* Biden's presidency claim, Trump actually WON

    29 vote(s)
    10.0%
  3. I am a Trump supporter - I acknowledge that Biden won, but *THE LEFT CHEATED* so it's illegitimate

    14 vote(s)
    4.8%
  4. I'm a Trump supporter but I believe in the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    14 vote(s)
    4.8%
  5. Other (don't care / don't waste my time with stupid polls)

    38 vote(s)
    13.1%
  6. 289 voter(s)
  1. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    You keep repeating this, but when I looked at the figures for the example you gave then it was the other way round, the less populated area had a smaller influence.

    Margaret Thatcher didn't decide to close any mines, there were some mines that were scheduled to be closed as they had become unprofitable due to how much coal had been removed. This had happened before she came into power, the miners then all decided to shut down the mines themselves & there was nothing she could do. By the time the miners returned to work there were no customers for their coal any more.

    Her only input was that she'd built up a reserve of coal in case there was a strike. The previous prime minister had been caught without a plan and that bought down his government. The government privatized the remaining mines in the 90's and they've all closed now.

    There is even a disparity between north and south wales, the north mostly didn't support the strike while the south mostly did.

    When you give a disproportionate amount of power to one group then it causes problems. It was in the miners interest to not go on strike.

    The only winner was the union leader, who the union has had to sue because of he basically stole from them.
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  2. Esjay131

    Esjay131 Advanced Member
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    Just do some basic math and add the votes up.
     
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  3. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Ahistoric nonsense and further evidence that talking to you is a waste of time. You're uninformed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25549596

    I won't be wasting more breath on you.
     
  4. elk1007

    elk1007 GBAtemp Regular
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    The truth is that there is widespread voter fraud. Who knows if its enough to flip the electoral college, though.

    Biden voters should want an honest election also.
    I fear that, in reality, nobody has faith or respect for our countries election process; they'll complain if their candidate loses, legitimate or not.
     
    Last edited by elk1007, Nov 20, 2020
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  5. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    You can't read and yet I'm uninformed. Margaret Thatcher didn't decide to close any mines.

    The new chairman of the board, Ian MacGregor, now meant to go further.

    "Mr MacGregor had it in mind over the three years 1983-85 that a further 75 pits would be closed... There should be no closure list, but a pit-by-pit procedure.


    Meanwhile they were developing new mines.

    The 1974 Plan of Coal produced in the aftermath of the 1972 miners' strike envisaged that the coal industry would replace 40 million tons of obsolete capacity and ageing pits while maintaining its output.[12] By 1983, the NCB would invest £3,000 million on developing new collieries.[13]

    Which doesn't fit your simplistic narrative of a prime minister who closed the mines to crush the unions at all.

    I'm beginning to understand how you come to so many incorrect conclusions.
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  6. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Em - you close down all mines (say because they are old), then you wait until unions are defunded and become derelict. Then you found new mining ventures?

    Seems like a pretty good way to get rid of union influence to me..

    Just as a hypothetical - I dont know the case.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Nov 20, 2020
  7. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Arthur Scargill was very much like Trump, a crook who is good at whipping up a crowd.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ion-pay-for-london-flat-for-life-8428774.html

    I'm sure the miners thought that was the plan, but from the numbers it doesn't seem plausible.

    There were 174 mines, even with 75 closed they still had a lot of mines and miners.

    https://www.ncm.org.uk/downloads/104/The_1984-5_Miners__Strike_Resource__hi_res_.pdf

    Ian MacGregor closed factories and made redundancies. By 1983, British Steel had become more profitable. His next role, in 1983, was head of the National Coal Board (NCB). To make the coal industry profitable, he cut jobs and closed pits. This ultimately led to the 1984-85 Miners’ Strike, for which no agreement was ever reached. Ian MacGregor retired from the NCB in 1986.

    On 3 March 1985 NUM delegates voted ninety-eight to ninety-one to call off the Strike. By 17 March 1985, the strike was over and the miners returned to work without a settlement. The NCB closed twenty five pits

    Closing profitable mines only to re-open them later doesn't make financial sense. It's not that easy from a practical point of view and all your customers go elsewhere.
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  8. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Didnt look into it, but thanks for posting the src.
     
  9. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    What do you class as wide spread?
    My understanding is that widespread fraud would be enough to flip the electoral college.

    Would you class 1 vote in every state as widespread?

    How have you determined that it is the "truth"?

    This is the first time that the incumbent president had used months of drumming into people that there would be voter fraud to try to derail the process. Without him doing that then there would be far more respect for the result. It's no surprise that loads of people believe there is fraud, he deliberately undermined faith in the process so that he could cling onto power.
     
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  10. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Trade unions of miners and steel workers, among other unions in the heavy industry sector, were considered a radical threat to the government at the time. This is clear if you read John Redwood's memo addressed to Thatcher, describing the protests as a "radical strategy" of the "far-left" aimed at challenging the government. They were afraid of getting ousted.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/pa...cial-papers-confirm-strikers-worst-suspicions

    The aim was always to make union workers destitute, maximise closures, gradually shift to cheaper, imported coal and steel and remove said threats from the picture.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/thatcher-labour-miners-enemy-within-brighton-bomb

    https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-strike-thatcher-real-enemy-within-extremism

    Nice Wikipedia copy-paste though, it's a good thing Tories are so diligent that they even file documents they're not supposed to file - that way they end up in the National Archive and we can all read what they were actually up to, albeit 30 years later.

    Let's collect all the facts here - the government, under Thatcher's leadership, openly lied to the public about plans to close 20 pits when they always aimed at 70-odd, and presumably more in the future. They were also considering the use of the British army to disperse the strikes by force should they refuse to concede.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23518589

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/03/margaret-thatcher-secret-plan-army-miners-strike

    Thatcher deliberately mislead the Parliament and the public by claiming that NUM was exaggerating the extent of planned closures when in actuality they were not - she was at those meetings, fully aware of the plans and had rubber-stamped them at the time. In other words, she lied.

    I don't even disagree with the notion that economically unviable pits should've been closed and the industry needed to be privatised and restructured, but certainly not like this. I'm also not a fan of trade unions, or socialists in general - as far as I'm concerned, you can seal them inside the pit that's being closed and you won't hear complaints from me.

    With that said, British heavy industry was cudgeled to death, leading to a decreased energy security, mass lay-off and a diminished standard of living, not just in Wales, but also in Scotland and Ireland. This is an undisputed fact. Big England has decided that small Wales, Scotland and Ireland needed a little "push" to change their economic landscape and the plan didn't quite work out as intended, or maybe it did - I maintain the latter is the case. It's hilarious to me that you're slurping the Tory Kool-aid this hard, the handling of the situation by Thatcher's government is universally panned as an unmitigated disaster that smothered large swathes of British heavy industry that will *never* return.

    It's a real shame all the good conservatives climbed aboard boats in the 18th century and left for greener pastures, perhaps if some stayed behind the UK wouldn't be so horrifically mismanaged under the watchful eyes of clowns. Have fun with them.
     
  11. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    You've probably not checked the date on your evidence, that was during the strike.

    She put pressure on the miners to end the strike so they would go back to work. If she wanted all the mines closed, then letting the miners stay on strike would have been a much simpler alternative.

    But buying coal from abroad when your own miners are striking is not evidence that she closed mines to destroy the unions.
     
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  12. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Of course it was during the strike, she wanted to get past the picket line and get the coal required to maintain energy security. The *whole point* of having that picket was to prevent that from happening. This is like, Baby's First Protest, Volume 1. Redwood is very clear in the interview - the prevailing belief in the cabinet was that the strikes were a strategy to undermine the government, which is also why plans were drafted to brand Labour as enemies of the state. This is not rocket science, the whole thing was political to a huge extent.
     
  13. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Your argument was she closed mines to break the unions.
    Here she is trying to open them.
     
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  14. elk1007

    elk1007 GBAtemp Regular
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    A single fraudulent ballot does not indicate widespread voter fraud. Also, a single fraudulent ballot won't turn a non-fraudulent election into a fraudulent one. Therefore, there is no widespread voter fraud.
     
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  15. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Under conditions unacceptable by the miners, see edit above. This was less about the miners staying at work and more about access to a commodity.
     
  16. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Well I wondered if the term "wide spread" was being used to mean "it happens in every state" rather than "it happens a lot in one state".

    Is that unreasonable? If you phone your boss and refuse to work and refuse to let anyone else do the work then they are going to try to work round you.

    That doesn't justify your original point "In the mid-1980's Margaret Thatcher dismantled the Welsh mining industry during her fight against trade unions,".

    She can't be dismantling it and trying to get the mines open at the same time, all while investing money into creating new mines.

    You could say she was trying to transform the industry and the miners ultimately caused their own demise by resisting the plans. If it hadn't been for Arthur Scargill then we'd have a coal industry to close down due to climate change.
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  17. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The objective of eliminating trade unions or diminishing the threat they posed to the Tory government is wholy separate from the long-term objective of closing down the mining sector. There's a big difference between coping with a planned closure over a course of many years, a scenario which gives you time to secure other sources of a given resource, and being suddenly cut off from all supply without notice, which leaves you with your pants all the way down at your ankles. Also, the right to peaceably assemble and redress grievances with the government is paramount and integral to a Democratic society - I thought you'd be a fan of that. A man of many contradictions, it seems.
    I very much doubt that Margaret Thatcher went on a date with The Doctor and used the Tardis to figure that one out, but in the hypothetical scenario that the mines would've survived (they wouldn't, that was never the goal), coal and other fossil fuels are still necessary and irreplaceable resources in all sorts of manufacturing, not just in the energy sector. In order to be independent, any sovereign country should endeavour to have a local stockpile and/or mining operation on the back burner for a rainy day. You can't replace oil with a solar panel when you're making conventional plastics, you can't add wind to iron to make steel. That's neither here nor there though.
     
  18. TomSwitch

    TomSwitch GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Maybe Trump cheated but didn't managed to cheat more powerfully?

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    Definitely rigged otherwise Trump's cheat would have worked. It is after all the most powerful cheat in the world.
     
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  19. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Of course she wanted rid of the unions, because in the 1970's the unions had destroyed the UK. We were selling substandard goods which the workers wanted to be paid over the odds for. The problem was caused by a power inbalance (like the one you favor in the electoral college)

    You haven't proved there was a long term plan to close all 174 mines.

    Are you talking about the miners who closed the mines or the governments plans to close the mines?
    The government coped with the miners who closed the mines as they had other opportunities available, albeit at a higher cost.

    If they had been able to close the unprofitable mines without the strikes then the pace would be dictated by the ability to increase production at other mines and develop new ones.

    Tell the people who continued working that the strikers were peaceably assembling.

    Their right to protest does not override anyone elses right to not protest.
     
    Last edited by smf, Nov 20, 2020
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  20. TomSwitch

    TomSwitch GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Trump's last resort. Admit that Trump has cheated and therefore the election result is not valid. Let's redo the election with his more powerful cheat 2.0
     
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