Pokémon - The Battle Between Legitimacy and Legality

Discussion in 'General Gaming Discussion' started by Ryukouki, Dec 27, 2013.

?
  1. Yes

    106 vote(s)
    54.9%
  2. No

    87 vote(s)
    45.1%
  1. Parasite X

    Parasite X Banned

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    Katy Tx
     
  2. Edward266

    Edward266 Member

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    I know this isn't much but here is my humble opinion. I think you should be able to modify and do whatever you want to a game as long as you are not effecting anyone else but yourself. But as soon as that modification starts to hurt other people and cause other people issues like using a hack or trick to steal someone else pokemon. Something harmful that is not meant to happen. However if you are doing it so you can make your way through the game on your own and not bothering anyone else I say why not. I know I have used a few cheats to get like MasterBalls that way I could get my collection up. But I was playing on my own an not bothering anyone else. That is just my opinion. I didn't read everyone else comments on all pages.
     
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  3. AngryGeek416

    AngryGeek416 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Poll upsets me, theres a bunch of good for nothing cheaters on this forum
     
  4. GreatZimkogway

    GreatZimkogway Still a Touhou Fanatic

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    Senkai
    What do you expect, it's a forum for pirates and modders.


    Here's my two cents. Nothing in the world allows you to take the easy way out, legally. You can try and justify non-legitimately created pokemon that are still in the bounds of "legality". I'll make an example I'm sure someone is going tell me it's wrong to compare them, but look at something like Magic: the Gathering, or Pokemon TCG, or any TCG.

    You can buy cards, and simply netdeck and use whatever is winning. But you can't just print these cards on your own, even if they are completely "legal" and look completely "legit". It's simply not allowed. Anyone who is found out is rightfully banned, permanently. Now, there's the argument that these are physical objects, but the same goes for the online versions of these card games as well.

    You are not allowed to cheat your way in, even if it's identical to the real thing. That's what forgery and cheating is. Often enough, Nintendo or Game Freak will do tournaments with their games, many of which have real money prizes. The majority of the players in these tournaments will be using things they worked hard to get, took time to train, to research, and craft these Pokemon.

    You may say "Oh, but I have a busy life, I don't have time to do all that", that's no excuse. Steroids are of the same line of thinking. They are illegal for a reason, it's simply giving you an easier time to be able to play. Why should you get in any easier than the people who worked to get where they are? Legal or not, it's an unfair advantage.

    And to take it a step further, with the release of Pokemon X and Y, training up a fully-crafted pokemon takes maybe an hour at most now, maybe a bit more if you're either unlucky, or going for a 100% perfect Pokemon. They've made it easier than ever to become competitive in their own game, and have drastically lessened the time needed. There's no excuse to need to use these modifiers or generators, because simply put, they aren't official.

    And I, for one, hope Nintendo puts some kind of way to detect and permanently ban those who try to use them. It's unfair to the rest of us, and it's simply cheating your way through life. But hey, this is GBAtemp, where people come to get patches for piracy and cheating already, so go figure.
     
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  5. gokujr1000

    gokujr1000 GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    Honestly I think the entire argument is ridiculously stupid. The only people against legal Pokemon are the ones who spend hard work creating legitimate Pokemon and see it as unfair, they think that because they put effort into their teams that everyone else should too, or the people who see this as "morally wrong". The first group of people mentioned are incredibly selfish and one sided and don't see that the EV/IV system is extremely dated and utterly pointless. In my opinion IV"s shouldn't even exist unless Gamefreak can find a better way of implementing it or making it easier to create or determine the IV's given to your Pokemon. But that is a whole other discussion. As for the second group, they honestly shouldn't care because this is a video game. If you worry about what is right or wrong in a competitive aspect in video games you're going to have a horrible time. Both groups don't realize the people they should be angry or dissatisfied with are Nintendo/Gamefreak (I'm going to say Nintendo from now onwards). If Nintendo fixed the broken method of obtaining legal Pokemon via Pokesav, or whatever the fuck people use now, this argument wouldn't even be happening. People are always going to use whatever is easiest to use or take the easiest way out of something in video-games and there is nothing wrong with doing this while the company developing the video-game does barely anything to fight it or try and stop it. This is exactly why people will spend enough to buy a new computer on micro-transactions or why in shooting games everyone uses the weapon that is the most over-powered, or why Smogon has a list of tiers for when people want to battle competitively.
     
  6. Jayro

    Jayro MediCat USB and Mini Windows 10 Developer

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    Jul 23, 2012
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    Octo Canyon
    I would like to release a bunch of shiny level 100 magikarps into wondertrade, and watch everyone flip shit when they don't have Flail. XD
     
  7. DJPlace

    DJPlace The Hater of Sony Censor Ship!!

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    Apr 16, 2008
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    nintendo should of pulled a third gen move. where you could not get any pokemon from any games at all. like the old gameboy games could not move to gameboy advance. they should of done IMO. then this shit would of never happend.
     
  8. GreatZimkogway

    GreatZimkogway Still a Touhou Fanatic

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    Senkai
    How is it selfish? Tell me, what other game or sport can you cheat and generator your way to the top? It's unfair no matter what, and you saying it's selfish to think so just shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
     
  9. gokujr1000

    gokujr1000 GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    It's selfish because they're not looking at it from more than one perspective. Anyone who does look at this from the perspective of others isn't arguing that people who generate Pokemon are evil but instead blaming Nintendo because it's Nintendo's fault. Gamefreak has been smart and made it so that EV's are extremely easy to get now but still keep the same ridiculous system of IV's and haven't tried to make it less time consuming than it already is. If IV's and EV's combined only took someone a few hours per Pokemon then I would see the point in this argument but the fact is that getting a Pokemon with amazing IV's and then EV training them takes shitloads of time. Time that not everyone on this planet has. If Pokemon was my heart and soul and I played it competitively but could only do it about an hour or two per every few days because I had a job, friends and family I would sure as hell be one of the people exploiting the game to get a Pokemon which was legal in every sense apart from being computer generated.
     
  10. GreatZimkogway

    GreatZimkogway Still a Touhou Fanatic

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    Senkai
    It's because the other perspective is being entitled. First off, if you're planning on playing casually to begin with, and I don't say that like a bad thing, what use do you even have going for perfect stats? And yes, they have made IVs far more easy to get. With certain items, you can now transfer up to FIVE IVs. Any pokemon caught in the friend safaris have two guaranteed perfect IVs. You can pass on moves and abilities from both parents now.

    You don't see people magically getting muscles to play sports, do you? No. You work towards them. Using the same type of time and effort you would here. Some people play sports purely for fun, or on a whim. They don't play to compete, at least not on a high level. They want to do that, guess what, they have to train. T R A I N. You aren't entitled to having perfect pokemon, and Game Freak isn't giving you the option to do so without a bit of elbow grease. Now if you're telling me you can't find time to take a couple of hours to idly catch some pokemon, breed a few IVs if you so choose, maybe egg moves as well...then what are you even playing the game for? Go play on Shoddy Battle, or Pokemon Showdown. If you're going to play the official thing, play by the same damn rules everyone else is. Having a job and friends and family doesn't give you a free pass to bypass the exact same work everyone else has to do, and finds time to do.

    Oh yeah, for the record, I work about 65-70 hours a week and can still find a few hours to train up a handful of pokemon and drag them online for a little bit. Only need three to play matches online. At most, that's 3 hours of training if you want guaranteed decent IVs. Otherwise just get the right nature, which is dirt easy, the right moves, EV train using hordes(this takes 5 minutes tops), and saunter your way online and have fun.
     
  11. gokujr1000

    gokujr1000 GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    1. IV's are still time consuming to receive and take far too much effort even with everything you've listed.

    2. This is a video game not a sport and even then if you cheat at a sport they have developed ways to catch you unless you play the sport casually, and even then you play a sport casually for fun.

    3. Gamefreak is giving you the option by not putting effort into catching generated Pokemon.

    4. For some people, like myself, Shoddy Battle and Pokemon Showdown just doesn't feel the same as getting to see your Pokemon in game.

    5. You've found time to train your Pokemon, good for you. Be mad at Gamefreak for not appreciating people like you not those who are given the easy way out.

    If I gave a shit about breeding the perfect Pokemon I would put hours and hours into perfecting my team. I disagree with cheating and think Gamefreak needs to find ways to stop it. But as long as they allow an easy way out people are going to take it and I accept that. Most of the people who generate their Pokemon would spend their own time perfecting their Pokemon, although the sane ones would disagree with the amount of time it takes, but as long as there is an easier road that road will be overflowing with people wanting to take it. It's only human nature for people to want to generate their Pokemon while they have the option to do so. Don't get mad or try to fight those people because you'll be wasting your time. Be mad at Gamefreak instead.
     
  12. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    Piracy is typically a civil infringement when it comes to legal things, online hacking, especially one that provides no great gain other than time saved, is at best a social contract. I am not sure you can conflate the two either.


    That "awesome feeling" for me would be "urgh now I have 20 hours or pressing A" ahead of me.

    I gather then you are of the opinion that any action not done within the game would be unjustifiable cheating? Even when the end result is a shortcut around a relatively short time investment (with no skill beyond reading comprehension and basic numeracy)?

    Everything in the world allows you to make life easier for yourself, especially if you are willing to invest some knowledge in the matter. The trouble comes in that such methods tend to be copied by all and then either the baseline for easiness/ease of living moves up or (though usually "and then") someone makes an even better method. I reckon the idea of high frequency stock trading provides this in an almost pure example -- faster computers, better algorithms, closer to the exchanges to lessen the speed of light issue, rinse and repeat until the only people that can compete in that world are those willing to invest heavily.
    To this end we are back at "would such things fall foul of the social contract?" which is what this topic seems to effectively be.

    On Magic cards.
    Many a tournament is run by Wizards of the Coast or with their blessing at some level. They would then tend to have a reason for wanting to go all inside their own wallet systems. See also the idea of a pay to play or pay to win system (Pokemon TCG and YuGiOh TCG being demonstrated to potentially be this on several occasions, magic slightly less so but not all the way). If you want to play in that system then that is fine, it is not a great comparison to this though.

    Steroids are not the same line of thinking. They almost invariably have serious fairly short term consequences for those taking them.

    Similarly we also have to decide what is a sport and what is a game. For my money a sport has to have a reaction time component, give or take move selection time limits pokemon does not have this either in the rules or as macro/emergent consequence of the underlying rules. Similarly a reasonable stable would then seem to take me but a very short amount of time to make, if it took an amount of time where time required / time since game's release was close to 1 for the first year or two then yeah generation would be an issue for me. As the time required / time since game's release tended towards zero after about the second week since release and is only getting lower*

    *others are noting as yet unreleased moves/abilities/things. This is a model used by some would be MMO type games to effectively increase the level cap without otherwise increasing the number actually known as the level cap (see also why I consider Zelda a RPG). As a handful of unreleased moves are unlikely to shake things up too much beyond possibly changing the previously winning combos I am not seeing it.

    However I am repeating what I said earlier so I will tie it off there for now.
     
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  13. Narayan

    Narayan desu~

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    Sep 29, 2010
    I don't mind if people would use it alone, but if it goes to multiplayer or sold, then there's a problem. Artificially created pokemons are cheated pokemons even if they had the same limits as the legitimate ones.
    They are made/obtained from hacking, or in other works, breaking the game or it's mechanics and it does not deserve any recognition.
     
  14. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Nov 21, 2005
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    How is it breaking the game if they are functionally identical and creating them "normally" takes a fairly short amount of time (long afternoon for a single one and a weekend for a team if you are taking your time)?
     
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  15. Narayan

    Narayan desu~

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    It's because the method in which they are created aren't withing the game's rules. Although the scale of time it can be created legitimately would make the difference negligible, in my own views, I still do not want to acknowledge it being used in an environment where people created their pokemon within the game's rules/methods.

    It's personal, I have a problem when people want to have equal standing with someone who made an effort even though they didn't make any.
     
  16. daniilS

    daniilS Member

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    I think it would only okay to use legal pokemon if there was some kind of split in the online battling system. If you use tools to create legal pokemon or don't but just want to show how badass you are, you go onto the legal server. If you like to train, breed and grind, and don't want to suddenly face a lvl. 100 31/31/31/31/31/31 max ev shiny perfect moves max happiness max affection overpowered legendary, you go onto the legitimate server.
     
  17. ßleck

    ßleck Console Peasant

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    I don't know. Help.
    Hmmm... Interesting subject. I think both sides have made some reasonable points. If you're using artificially created pokemon technically you are cheating, that's a fact. The question is if it should be allowed.

    I think if a pokemon is "legal" and only if it's really "legal" they should be allowed in the game. I understand that this is cheating and it isn't supposed to be in the game. Besides, not everyone can just go ahead and create such pokemon. However, like others have said, it does take a lot of time to create legitimate pokemon good enough for competitive battles.

    With the current circumstances it looks like many other people will be using these methods anyway. I wish Nintendo could just be able to block any way of cheating so we wouldn't need discussions like this. I personally don't actually like cheating, but with another process that drastically reduces the amount of time to get the same outcome available (I know it sounds like using steroids and stuff like that, but this is clearly a less serious subject)... I can't just ignore something like this, even if this makes me sounds like an evil hypocrite.
     
  18. daniilS

    daniilS Member

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    If you think pokememon is only about battling with the perfect pokes, you're wrong. There are enough alternatives if you only want to battle, like showdown. If everybody can get perfect pokemon within a few seconds, then what's the point of the whole breeding/training/catching thing?
     
  19. Sheimi

    Sheimi A cute Vixen!

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    Oct 22, 2009
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    Generating Perfect Pokemon doesn't give off the certain feeling of accomplishment.
     
  20. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Nov 21, 2005
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    Surely that would require them to write a bug free program and that is not happening for a complex program, one that has to run in human time and one that has to run on something less than an unlimited system any time soon.


    So now we have degrees of cheating.

    Agreeable enough as long as we are talking about a broadly symmetrical game (some people are naturally stronger, smarter, more dexterous....). However I am not sure I can respect the grinding/levelling part of it, by all means have it as a component in the game and I can even see people enjoying it but as far as my respecting it well enough to diss those that would skip it then not so much.

    Spending an hour or three breeding and grinding up pokemon does not give me any feeling of accomplishment.



    To spin another.
    If I can restore a save is that cheating or acceptable?
     
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