PocketPair reports and details the alleged infringed patents from The Pokemon Co. lawsuit

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Back in September of this year, news broke out about Nintendo / Pokemon Company would sue the creators of Palworld, PocketPair, for an alleged patent infringement from PocketPair's part.

The details about said lawsuit were scarce, other than the companies suing PocketPair, and it wasn't until today, November 8th, 2024, that PocketPair themselves released a short but detailed report about the current state of the lawsuit, and which specific patents from Nintendo and The Pokemon Company were the alleged infringed ones when it came to Palworld.

The alleged infringed patents from the Pokemon Company are the following:
  • Patent No. 7545191
    [Patent application date: July 30, 2024]
    [Patent registration date: August 27, 2024]

  • Patent No. 7493117
    [Patent application date: February 26, 2024]
    [Patent registration date: May 22, 2024]

  • Patent No. 7528390
    [Patent application date: March 5, 2024]
    [Patent registration date: July 26, 2024]
To summarize them, basically it all boils down to aiming and sighting directions in a virtual space, and riding objects in ground and aerial spaces.
According to PocketPair, both Nintendo and the Pokemon Company are seeking 5 million yen as well as late payment damages to each company, meaning 5 million to Nintendo and another 5 million to Pokemon Co. (plus the late payment damages).

As a closing statement, PocketPair assured that they "will continue to assert their position in this case":

PocketPair said:
We will continue to assert our position in this case through future legal proceedings.

Please note that we will refrain from responding individually to inquiries regarding this case. If any matters arise that require public notice, we will announce them on our website, etc.

:arrow: Source
 

Exnor

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So is Nintendo suing all other videogame publishers/devs/etc.. that use those mechanics in their games?

I'm guessing those patents are only valid in Japan, so how do they enforce it outside of Japan?
 

Sir Tortoise

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So is Nintendo suing all other videogame publishers/devs/etc.. that use those mechanics in their games?
No, because GBATemp's very brief summary of the patents does not mean that those patents are literally "aiming".

I'm guessing those patents are only valid in Japan, so how do they enforce it outside of Japan?
Most rich countries tend to respect the patents of others, because they also want the other countries to do the same for theirs.
 

AndorfRequissa

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these are all 2024 patents which come after palwords january 19th 2024 release date. which shows that nintendo is just reaching and their lawyers are trying to lock up and ruin creative options in the game industry. even if nintendo wins they still lose imo. they lose by spitting on the fan base that would support them alot more if they werent attacking others in the gaming industry.

hopefully no one forgets that nintendo waited until after the game was released to submit these patents. that alone should make them lose and palword should countersue.
 

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I've watched some video a while ago breaking down some theory about this not being about PocketPair but actually being about Sony, and it kinda makes sense

Sony apparently did push Palworld on PS5 with some salon and stuff, kinda as if it was their own Pokémon, and Nintendo might have seen that as a genuine threat. Their worst nightmare is probably Sony or Microsoft having their own Pokémon that could suddenly even scratch some of their success with the franchise.

But that's just a (game) theory. Considering how far-fetched this whole case seem to be, I kinda buy into it. Basically was could have made Nintendo angry was the deal with Sony.

 
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Guacaholey

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Those are probably the worst software patents I've ever heard of. That first one is about 99.9% of all video games and the second is like at least 50%. Nintendo really is being pretty transparent about how spiteful their lawsuit is.
This is exactly why most countries won't grant patents based on abstract concepts or ideas.

Plus, these were only filed after Palworld released. This is blatant patent trolling.

In any other country these patents would've been denied, or they'd be revoked if an attempt to enforce them was made.

These patents effectively mean: hitting something with a projectile to start combat (so like any game with ranged combat), capturing a creature outside of combat, and riding a creature to traverse the world more quickly (this would include riding a horse).

I saw somebody comment Nintendo had enough patents to basically destroy the industry. I think the correct way to phrase this is "Nintendo is the only company so openly greedy they hoard patents for even the most basic ideas and ideas they steal from others".

I'm hoping that Atlus or Square Enix patent taming and storing creatures. The monster capturing tubes in Dragon Quest Adventure of Dai effectively did the Pokéball concept nearly a decade before Pokémon.

Squenix can use all the money they'd get from the lawsuit to hire good writers for their games.

these are all 2024 patents which come after palwords january 19th 2024 release date. which shows that nintendo is just reaching and their lawyers are trying to lock up and ruin creative options in the game industry. even if nintendo wins they still lose imo. they lose by spitting on the fan base that would support them alot more if they werent attacking others in the gaming industry.

hopefully no one forgets that nintendo waited until after the game was released to submit these patents. that alone should make them lose and palword should countersue.
The patents never should've been granted to begin with. Hopefully they'll be revoked by the judge, but this is Japan where if you're accused of wrongdoing you're basically guilty.

If this does somehow get ruled in the favor of Nintendo, I'm hoping Atlus and Square Enix patent the ideas Nintendo ripped off from them and sue Nintendo into oblivion. Keep in mind Pokémon is the highest grossing media franchise in the world.
 
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NinStar

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Thank you! +5 points!

You can literally get around this by doing something like "the player taps Button 1 to initially adjust direction".

Answered in my post above, yes.
Doesn't that prove that these patents are stupid to begin with? You're just changing the wording of a broad concept to make it sound like something else...

No matter how you look at it, there's no good reason for these patents to exist.
 
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Kwyjor

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"Patent troll is a derogatory term used to describe a company that uses patent infringement claims to win court judgments for profit or to stifle competition."
Oh very good, did you keep reading or just stop when you were satisfied?

Patent troll is currently a controversial term, susceptible to numerous definitions, none of which are considered satisfactory from the perspective of understanding how patent trolls should be treated in law.[11] Definitions often include a party that does one or more of the following:

Purchases a patent, often from a bankrupt firm, and then sues another company by claiming that one of its products infringes on the purchased patent;[6]
Enforces patents against purported infringers without itself intending to manufacture the patented product or supply the patented service;[12][13] (some argue this could be true even for the original inventor, whereas others draw a clear distinction on this point)[14]
Enforces patents but has no manufacturing or research base;[15]
Focuses its efforts solely on enforcing patent rights;[16] or
Asserts patent infringement claims against non-copiers or against a large industry that is composed of non-copiers.[17]

Plus, these were only filed after Palworld released.
Why do people keep bringing this up like it's some kind of "gotcha" that would have prevented the lawsuit from getting started in the first place?!

The monster capturing tubes in Dragon Quest Adventure of Dai effectively did the Pokéball concept nearly a decade before Pokémon.
And the patents in question are much, much, much, much narrower than that.

Doesn't that prove that these patents are stupid to begin with? You're just changing the wording of a broad concept to make it sound like something else...
A lot of cases like this come down to things like arguing whether a "tap" should be distinct from a "press". (And yes, that's probably absurd, but the same can be said for a lot of cases, even those completely unrelated to patents.)
 
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HarveyHouston

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To summarize them, basically it all boils down to aiming and sighting directions in a virtual space, and riding objects in ground and aerial spaces.​
...But that's true of some MMORPGs, as well. This doesn't make sense! Are we back to semantics over stupid stuff like "Your Home button looks like MY Home button"? (Thinking of one of the times Apple sued Samsung over an alleged patent infringement of an iPhone design aesthetic.)
 
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AndorfRequissa

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I've watched some video a while ago breaking down some theory about this not being about PocketPair but actually being about Sony, and it kinda makes sense

Sony apparently did push Palworld on PS5 with some salon and stuff, kinda as if it was their own Pokémon, and Nintendo might have seen that as a genuine threat. Their worst nightmare is probably Sony or Microsoft having their own Pokémon that could suddenly even scratch some of their success with the franchise.

But that's just a (game) theory. Considering how far-fetched this whole case seem to be, I kinda buy into it. Basically was could have made Nintendo angry was the deal with Sony.


if nintendo had this much power back when sega genesis came out they would have sued sonic claiming the 2d movement was a violation of a patent from mario. its pathetic that nintendo is worrying about other games on other consoles this way.
 
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raxadian

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Those are probably the worst software patents I've ever heard of. That first one is about 99.9% of all video games and the second is like at least 50%. Nintendo really is being pretty transparent about how spiteful their lawsuit is.

Yup.

They are literally bulling then with money.
 

Kwyjor

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...But that's true of some MMORPGs, as well. This doesn't make sense! Are we back to semantics over stupid stuff like "Your Home button looks like MY Home button"? (Thinking of one of the times Apple sued Samsung over an alleged patent infringement of an iPhone design aesthetic.)
That was something completely different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent
 

Guacaholey

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Oh very good, did you keep reading or just stop when you were satisfied?




Why do people keep bringing this up like it's some kind of "gotcha" that would have prevented the lawsuit from getting started in the first place?!


And the patents in question are much, much, much, much narrower than that.


A lot of cases like this come down to things like arguing whether a "tap" should be distinct from a "press". (And yes, that's probably absurd, but the same can be said for a lot of cases, even those completely unrelated to patents.)
The hell are you on about? Nintendo has a history of dumb vague patents and patents on things they don't intend to manufacture. Look at all the patents when the Switch was in development.

Know why people are pointing out the patents were filled after the release of Palworld? Because it means Nintendo didn't actually care about protecting the ideas before Palworld successfully made money.

How can claiming somebody violated a patent that didn't exist be anything but frivolity? There's no way their intentions were anything other than frivolously suing people who pissed them off with competition. If they cared about actually protecting the ideas the patents would've been filed during the development of PLA or shortly thereafter, and they wouldn't be vague as hell.

These patents aren't narrow either. They're vague enough they could cover any ranged combat or mounts in games. Things that have existed for years in games before Nintendo released Pokémon Legends Arceus. Nintendo is trying to claim ownership of the ideas of riding an animal and attack things from a distance in games.

I would absolutely call whay they're doing patent trolling, because they're claiming Pocket Pair infringed patents that didn't even exist yet because they couldn't get them for copyright or trademark infringement even if they tried. Not only that but they're trying to patent ideas they didn't create.

That, and they didn't care about Pocket Pair or Palworld until Sony acquired them.

If Square Enix were to patent the concept of "a device shrinking monsters to contain them" or Atlus patents "using technology to call upon monsters" (Megami Tensei's protagonist uses a computer program to summon demons, that's a hell of a lot narrower in scope than the bullshit Nintendo is trying to pull.

The patents about aiming and summoning a creature to fight might actually be specific enough to be valid had they not waited until after Palworld released (I still have have doubts since it's basically just zoomed in or first person aiming, and then summoning a creature with a different button). That's still not really an original idea though. One could argue that Bethesda does this in Elder Scrolls games, and Skyrim came out in 2011.
 
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Kwyjor

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Nintendo has a history of dumb vague patents and patents on things they don't intend to manufacture. Look at all the patents when the Switch was in development.
And the vast majority of those have never been associated with any legal action that anyone's cared about.

Know why people are pointing out the patents were filled after the release of Palworld?
Oh, well, people are pointing it out because it lets them think they have another reason to dump some more on Nintendo, obviously.

Because it means Nintendo didn't actually care about protecting the ideas before Palworld successfully made money.
Except the patents are based on a document that was filed in 2021!

I would absolutely call whay they're doing patent trolling
However frivolous they might be, the patents are associated with something they're actively developing and selling. But why not just throw all linguistic convention to the wind and call it whatever feels good?
 
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NinStar

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What baffles me is how the entire process seems to work.

If video games patents are to be allowed, I think that at the very least they should require the entire composition to be included, a comprehensive description of how the entire game works from top to bottom, otherwise we end up with scenarios like this, fucking patents about video game mechanics that serve no purpose when seem in isolation other than restrict what other people can do with their own games.

Although a far better option would be to just ban them entirely.
 

yoyoyo69

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They've (Pocket Pair) seriously exposed, just how lazy and greedy Nintendo and the Pokémon Group are.

Firstly, they are trying their luck, secondly if they fail, they'll have at least slowed down and affected Pocket Pairs development and support, as well as damage their reputation.

Nintendo are renowned for being petty, scummy and treating fans like trash, but this is another level
 
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ChronosNotashi

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So basically, Palworld ended up in the crossfire between the much larger battle between Nintendo and Sony, Sony basically taking advantage of the Palworld properties and in a sort of pseudo spite attempt, grew a set of balls to try and take on a major and important franchise in Nintendo's (and Game Freak's) history, Pokemon. Nintendo is trying to make sure Sony knows their place before they get too large for the own good. Which implies that Palworld isn't inherently the issue, it's Sony's response against Nintendo as a long time rival forcing Nintendo to step in, set boundaries, and protect their property. My understanding right?

Also the law is complicated.....VERY COMPLICATED.
Agreed. And it should be pointed out that this is all in regards to Japanese laws, and...well, as Moony notes in the video, Japanese business culture is a whole different beast compared to U.S. business culture.

I've watched some video a while ago breaking down some theory about this not being about PocketPair but actually being about Sony, and it kinda makes sense

Sony apparently did push Palworld on PS5 with some salon and stuff, kinda as if it was their own Pokémon, and Nintendo might have seen that as a genuine threat. Their worst nightmare is probably Sony or Microsoft having their own Pokémon that could suddenly even scratch some of their success with the franchise.

But that's just a (game) theory. Considering how far-fetched this whole case seem to be, I kinda buy into it. Basically was could have made Nintendo angry was the deal with Sony.


Sony didn't just push PalWorld onto PS5. They created an entirely new company - PalWorld Entertainment - similar to the Pokemon Company, owned by Sony Music, Aniplex (owned by Sony Music, and thus part of the Sony conglomerate), and PocketPair. And you don't make a joint company similar to The Pokemon Company, much less as quickly as Sony did, unless you plan to push into the very same areas that the Pokemon franchise occupies (and very aggressively, in Sony's case). What's more, since Sony owns two of the three companies that own PalWorld Entertainment, that means they effectively own the PalWorld IP despite PocketPair not having fully transferred ownership.

Nintendo's decision starts making a lot of sense once viewed with that in mind, and shows that, in this case, they are absolutely willing to risk losing a few of their patents (including the parent patent of the ones noted here) to minimize the damage Sony is able to deal to the Pokemon IP. (And also shows that Sony is very likely to throw PocketPair under the bus the moment things go south (as they've traditionally dropped anything that was an attempt to cut into Nintendo's successes that only resulted in Sony taking losses), and take the PalWorld IP with them on the way out after PocketPair dissolves.)

What baffles me is how the entire process seems to work.
Unfortunately, that's the patent system - and, really, any legal system - in a nutshell: very confusing to everyone except those willing to pour years of their life into studying both the word and the intent of the laws that govern. Even the Fair-Use Policy, which everyone claims to know in and out every time emulation and fan games are brought into discussions, is just as confusing: it's more like guidelines than actual rules, and even when you know how they work, it's like walking through a field of invisible barbed fences - you won't know where the fences are until you run face-first into one, feel the barbs stab into you, and then get 10,000 volts sent though you by the electric generator attached to the network of fences.
 
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Guacaholey

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And the vast majority of those have never been associated with any legal action that anyone's cared about.

Oh, well, people are pointing it out because it lets them think they have another reason to dump some more on Nintendo, obviously.

Except the patents are based on a document that was filed in 2021!

However frivolous they might be, the patents are associated with something they're actively developing and selling. But why not just throw all linguistic convention to the wind and call it whatever feels good?
The patents, the one thing that could actually protect their ideas, weren't filed until 2024 though.

If they actually gave a crap about protecting their idea, they would've filed them before the idea was copied.

But they didn't expect anybody to actually copy them in a way that threatened them. That's why they waited.

If they cared they would've filed these patents, with the specifications of how everything works, years ago.

You can say "WeLl AcksHuaLlY ThEY fILed a DOcuMent iN 2011" all you want, but that's not the patent designed to protect their ideas.
 
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Bladexdsl

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They've (Pocket Pair) seriously exposed, just how lazy and greedy Nintendo and the Pokémon Group are.

Firstly, they are trying their luck, secondly if they fail, they'll have at least slowed down and affected Pocket Pairs development and support, as well as damage their reputation.

Nintendo are renowned for being petty, scummy and treating fans like trash, but this is another level
SCUMtendo have finally shown their true colors they have hidden it for so long but now everyone finally knows. this has nothing to do with PP they are just caught in the middle. this is a message to sony
 
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thekarter104

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nintendo making up patents now to bully their competition. they are truly despicable worse than apple ever was!!
tell them to go fuck themselves pocketpair give them NOTHING!!
This is why GTA VI comes out before Switch 2. Nintendo is too busy with quote on quote lawsuits...

Probably no time to even develop a game. But just porting an 1 second work game over to the Switch 🤷
 
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