Whether you like the console or not, the Switch is Nintendo's fastest selling hardware. And the console's financial success doesn't seem to stop here.

According to the Wall Street Journal, "Nintendo Co. has decided to at least double its planned production of the Switch console in the year ending March 2018 owing to strong demand". This means that they'll double production from 8 million units to 16 million! That's a massive increase from 5 million units sale predicted before shipping by analyst SuperData Research. And an even bigger number considering that the ill-fated WiiU sold just 13.5 million units in total.

These figures seem indeed promising for the Switch, with which Nintendo was adamantly betting on to right the wrongs of the WiiU, as the higher sales, rather than being a short-term money maker, might motivate third-party developers to invest in the system and further attract more consumers.

The Switch's early sales might not foretell how it will fare in the long run but it is off to a good start.

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[sarkwalvein]

A system not being popular and not selling well doesn't make it not awesome. It's awesome because of the games i have on it . Not to mention cfw and emulators etc..

But selling well and being popular is what makes companies that want to profit from games make the good games for it. So egg and chicken?

 

[Thulinma]

I don't mean to be rude, but that's total nonsense and babble. Most of the circuitry is already in the Switch itself (charging circuit, all of the video chips, USB controller etc.) or the power adapter (transformer, voltage regulator, smoothing capacitors etc.), the dock contains a USB hub controller which costs pennies, a MyDP-to-HDMI converter which is equally cheap and a handful of CMOS and other smaller, insignificant chips. The dock doesn't do anything important at all, the video and audio signals are encoded by the console already. The charging is also handled internally, otherwise the system wouldn't be rechargeable without the dock. The dock is "15V-ready" because it's connected to a 15V power supply, that's it. It serves as an adapter and splitter, nothing more. $13 says you're grossly overestimating its value.

Dock Teardown showing that there's nothing of interest or value in there:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo+Switch+Teardown/78263#s156439

MyDP to HDMI adapter with a USB charge plug. $13. Bang:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01FW74CQS/

The plug seems large because it contains *all of the circuitry* required to do the job. Yes, it's in the plug.

Here's another one. $29, just plug in that wall charger and you're set. This one's 4K-ready, too:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B015DJ4QYI/

This one's $10. How low do you think we can go?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GU4QV2G/

There's zillions of those things out there and they're all cheap as dirt. I don't know where you're pulling your figures from. If the guts cost around $10, you're paying $80 for a bunch of, frankly, low quality plastic.
Huge shortages where I live. There are weekly drops of units that disappear within a day or two and scalpers, that's the only two avenues to get a system.

It's alright - I didn't take you as being rude, but you are grossly misinformed, sadly :-)

You can't just make any random USB hub "15v ready". There's no such thing. This is actually an USB-PD-enabled hub. Those are super rare and hard to get right now, and have to abide very strict specifications. For more details, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power_Delivery_.28PD.29
A regular USB hub will limit power to 5V as voltage, and most of them also correctly limit the amperage to 0.5 amps (technically the maximum allowed per port for regular USB 2.0, which is what most hubs are). This means the Switch would charge at a really low rate and take many hours to fully charge. Most likely they only enable the HDMI output when there's enough power to sustain it, probably meaning 15 volts. (Though the switch can handle all USB-PD voltages <= 15V, and it's possible a lower voltage is enough as well. I don't know if anyone tested this yet.)
A USB-PD HUB needs to be able to convert voltages and negotiate them. After all, only one voltage can go through a USB cable simultaneously, so it's the hubs task to convert the 15V to 5V for regular USB2. Keep in mind there's also an USB3 port in there, which can draw up to 0.9 amps, possibly more if it also support USB-PD, which it probably does.
Following your own teardown source, you'll see one of the chips in the dock is a VL210. Specs for that are here: http://www.via-labs.com/product_show.php?id=56
You'll see this chip can actually convert voltages and trigger various USB3 charging modes. So yes, there *is* something of interest there, as that is not just any USB chip but a really nice one.
A close match is this device, which contains the same charging chip: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digitus-70...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01LXLR9MC (in fact, it's quite likely that this device combined with the official nintendo charger will actually output HDMI... would be interesting if somebody could test this...)
That's a $55 USD device. And it doesn't come with a 15V-enabled power supply, which you need to get separately. Good luck finding one cheaper than the one Nintendo offers. Later some will surely show up, but right now? A charger made by Anker which costs $45 seems to be the closest match.

So, yeah. Please check your facts before you accuse me of talking nonsense. I realize I didn't cite any sources in my first post, but that doesn't mean the information is wrong! As you are a gbatemp reporter, I frankly expected a bit more from you to be honest.

 

[Foxi4]

It's alright - I didn't take you as being rude, but you are grossly misinformed, sadly :-)

You can't just make any random USB hub "15v ready". There's no such thing. This is actually an USB-PD-enabled hub. Those are super rare and hard to get right now, and have to abide very strict specifications. For more details, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power_Delivery_.28PD.29
A regular USB hub will limit power to 5V as voltage, and most of them also correctly limit the amperage to 0.5 amps (technically the maximum allowed per port for regular USB 2.0, which is what most hubs are). This means the Switch would charge at a really low rate and take many hours to fully charge. Most likely they only enable the HDMI output when there's enough power to sustain it, probably meaning 15 volts. (Though the switch can handle all USB-PD voltages <= 15V, and it's possible a lower voltage is enough as well. I don't know if anyone tested this yet.)
A USB-PD HUB needs to be able to convert voltages and negotiate them. After all, only one voltage can go through a USB cable simultaneously, so it's the hubs task to convert the 15V to 5V for regular USB2. Keep in mind there's also an USB3 port in there, which can draw up to 0.9 amps, possibly more if it also support USB-PD, which it probably does.
Following your own teardown source, you'll see one of the chips in the dock is a VL210. Specs for that are here: http://www.via-labs.com/product_show.php?id=56
You'll see this chip can actually convert voltages and trigger various USB3 charging modes. So yes, there *is* something of interest there, as that is not just any USB chip but a really nice one.
A close match is this device, which contains the same charging chip: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digitus-70838-Type-Adapter-Chipset-VL210-Silver/dp/B01LXLR9MC?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duc08-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01LXLR9MC (in fact, it's quite likely that this device combined with the official nintendo charger will actually output HDMI... would be interesting if somebody could test this...)
That's a $55 USD device. And it doesn't come with a 15V-enabled power supply, which you need to get separately. Good luck finding one cheaper than the one Nintendo offers. Later some will surely show up, but right now? A charger made by Anker which costs $45 seems to be the closest match.

So, yeah. Please check your facts before you accuse me of talking nonsense. I realize I didn't cite any sources in my first post, but that doesn't mean the information is wrong! As you are a gbatemp reporter, I frankly expected a bit more from you to be honest.

Once again, the power comes from the switching supply. I acknowledge that it's "15V-ready", but I don't think that justifies an $80 price gap. How much do you think they pay for that one IC? Not much, I'd wager. The dock is overpriced for what it does, that was my main point.

 

[Thulinma]

Once again, the power comes from the switching supply. I acknowledge that it's "15V-ready", but I don't think that justifies an $80 price gap. How much do you think they pay for that one IC? Not much, I'd wager. The dock is overpriced for what it does, that was my main point.

Once again, you can't get both 5V and 15V from a single wire. It's physically impossible. Thus the dock does voltage conversions. It has to, otherwise it wouldn't be able to do what it clearly does (which is delivering at least 15V and 5V simultaneously).
There is no such thing as "15v-ready", nor can you just "passthrough" something like this if a hub is involved (since all devices may request different voltages and data speeds), there is USB-PD or nothing (well, actually, there's also QuickCharge which does voltages a different method - but neither the dock nor the power supply use that, so it's irrelevant). Yes, the power supply delivers the actual power, but the dock converts that power to lower voltages as needed and does port setting negotiations.
I'm guessing that one IC is probably at least $15 USD, since it does a *lot* of work and has relatively low market demand right now (USB-PD is pretty new, and the higher voltages are currently only used in various expensive-ish laptops). That's not even counting the other ICs on there, the cost of the physical ports themselves (which are not negligible, even at bulk prices), and the packaging/shipping/production/quality assurance costs.

You simply cannot find a hub or similar device that is capable of USB-PD for (much) less than the price of the dock. So no, the dock is not overpriced, it's actually quite competitive if you compare it fairly with devices of the same or similar capabilities.
What *does* bother me, is that you can't use it for other devices because the USB-C port is inside a bunch of plastic shaped like a Nintendo Switch. That is a major downside to me, but not something that warrants a major price cut I think.

 

[Foxi4]

Once again, you can't get both 5V and 15V from a single wire. It's physically impossible. Thus the dock does voltage conversions. It has to, otherwise it wouldn't be able to do what it clearly does (which is delivering at least 15V and 5V simultaneously).
There is no such thing as "15v-ready", nor can you just "passthrough" something like this if a hub is involved (since all devices may request different voltages and data speeds), there is USB-PD or nothing (well, actually, there's also QuickCharge which does voltages a different method - but neither the dock nor the power supply use that, so it's irrelevant). Yes, the power supply delivers the actual power, but the dock converts that power to lower voltages as needed and does port setting negotiations.
I'm guessing that one IC is probably at least $15 USD, since it does a *lot* of work and has relatively low market demand right now (USB-PD is pretty new, and the higher voltages are currently only used in various expensive-ish laptops). That's not even counting the other ICs on there, the cost of the physical ports themselves (which are not negligible, even at bulk prices), and the packaging/shipping/production/quality assurance costs.

You simply cannot find a hub or similar device that is capable of USB-PD for (much) less than the price of the dock. So no, the dock is not overpriced, it's actually quite competitive if you compare it fairly with devices of the same or similar capabilities.
What *does* bother me, is that you can't use it for other devices because the USB-C port is inside a bunch of plastic shaped like a Nintendo Switch. That is a major downside to me, but not something that warrants a major price cut I think.

Would you like me to draw how to do it on a piece of paper? They could do it without any conversion by just implementing extra two pins solely for the purposes of charging the unit - that'd require a custom port on the side of the existing USB connector or a totally proprietary port, but it'd make the circuit less complicated. If you want to argue conversion, you can very easily find buck/boost converters that'll do the job. As for the USB spec, the 3.1 protocol allows for passing through up to 3A on the 5V rail in charge mode, this was introduced with the advent of USB chargers. Bridging the data pins will inform the host that the connected device is in charge mode and will automatically attempt to draw as much power as the host has to spare within said spec. I fully understand what you're saying, but I disagree that it takes $90 to make this circuit - it just doesn't.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Think through what @Thulinma is saying. He is right.

 

[Bladexdsl]

But selling well and being popular is what makes companies that want to profit from games make the good games for it. So egg and chicken?

the switches momentum is just getting rolling

 

[Thulinma]

Would you like me to draw how to do it on a piece of paper? They could do it without any conversion by just implementing extra two pins solely for the purposes of charging the unit - that'd require a custom port on the side of the existing USB connector or a totally proprietary port, but it'd make the circuit less complicated. If you want to argue conversion, you can very easily find buck/boost converters that'll do the job. As for the USB spec, the 3.1 protocol allows for passing through up to 3A on the 5V rail in charge mode, this was introduced with the advent of USB chargers. Bridging the data pins will inform the host that the connected device is in charge mode and will automatically attempt to draw as much power as the host has to spare within said spec. I fully understand what you're saying, but I disagree that it takes $90 to make this circuit - it just doesn't.

I did say a single wire. Yes, USB has several wires inside the cable, but only one of them is allowed to be used for power. Yes, you can make something custom, but I'm saying I actually approve how Nintendo for the first time *didn't* go that route, but made something standard instead. I applaud that, even though it increases costs.

Those converters you mention do exist, but they are generally too large to use in these type of small electronics and/or not precise enough to not potentially break what you're charging with.
Yes, USB3 allows up to 3A using 5V (= 15 watts). The Switch can pull 2A in 15V, however ( = 30 watts). Using higher voltages is more efficient (for multiple reasons, among which losses over cable length vs voltage, batteries tend to charge better/faster when using higher voltages to charge them, less heat production/loss). And don't forget to be backwards-compatible with USB2 and USB1 (another spec requirement) 3A may only be provided if it has been negotiated over the port first. This means you must be able to change the voltages/amperages of each port separately. That's not something you can do in 10 dollars of equipment. That is expensive.

I never said it makes $90 to make a dock. I said that the $60 they are asking for it is a fair price, considering what it does and what alternatives with similar specs are available. The dock probably costs about $30-40 USD to produce, but they do need to make a profit somehow, and if you add all the costs for warranty use, shipping, packaging, support, etc... $60 is a good price.
Now, the $30 charger is not just fair, it's actually the best deal on a 39W (2.6A at 15V is the max it can deliver) USB-PD-compatible charger available today (sadly it's only compatible, not compliant - as it isn't capable of delivering some other voltages that the USB-PD spec requires).

Think through what @Thulinma is saying. He is right.

Thank you. Glad to see other people can see reason as well. :-)

 

[Foxi4]

I did say a single wire. Yes, USB has several wires inside the cable, but only one of them is allowed to be used for power. Yes, you can make something custom, but I'm saying I actually approve how Nintendo for the first time *didn't* go that route, but made something standard instead. I applaud that, even though it increases costs.

Those converters you mention do exist, but they are generally too large to use in these type of small electronics and/or not precise enough to not potentially break what you're charging with.
Yes, USB3 allows up to 3A using 5V (= 15 watts). The Switch can pull 2A in 15V, however ( = 30 watts). Using higher voltages is more efficient (for multiple reasons, among which losses over cable length vs voltage, batteries tend to charge better/faster when using higher voltages to charge them, less heat production/loss). And don't forget to be backwards-compatible with USB2 and USB1 (another spec requirement) 3A may only be provided if it has been negotiated over the port first. This means you must be able to change the voltages/amperages of each port separately. That's not something you can do in 10 dollars of equipment. That is expensive.

I never said it makes $90 to make a dock. I said that the $60 they are asking for it is a fair price, considering what it does and what alternatives with similar specs are available. The dock probably costs about $30-40 USD to produce, but they do need to make a profit somehow, and if you add all the costs for warranty use, shipping, packaging, support, etc... $60 is a good price.
Now, the $30 charger is not just fair, it's actually the best deal on a 39W (2.6A at 15V is the max it can deliver) USB-PD-compatible charger available today (sadly it's only compatible, not compliant - as it isn't capable of delivering some other voltages that the USB-PD spec requires).


Thank you. Glad to see other people can see reason as well. :-)

I was questioning your reasoning for why you think the price is fair, not your technical knowledge - you are correct in your assessment regarding current. Speaking of current, I do wonder if USB-C cables are rated for that kind of current flow. Naturally the one supplied is, but I see some risk of cables overheating if they're off-brand.

Personally I would prefer a custom rail on the bottom and an additional power and USB plug on the top of the system. It would allow the unit to be seated into the dock more snuggly *and* it would allow for charging the system while playing in tablet mode which at present is impossible due to the inconveniently placed port. That, and ripple introduced from the PSU could potentially cause issues with data transfer at a higher than usual current - keeping charge current and data signals separate reduces that risk.

Let's call it a difference of opinion in terms of design. You could achieve the same effect significantly cheaper. By the way, you technically could push 5V *or* 15V over the same wire, just not simultaneously - the hub negotiates connection mode already. It'd complicate things, but it's doable. Alternatively you could just use a small transformer with one primary and two secondaries to provide both voltages from the same source, but that's getting into the juicy tidbits of electrical engineering that go beyond the scope of the topic.

If you're pricing the dock at about $60 then I'm inclined to shake hands on that. This makes the mark-up from "fair price" to "retail price" of $90 50%, which is relatively high for consoles, but not unacceptable or unheard of in the world of electronic goods.

How does that sound? Truce?

 

[Thulinma]

I was questioning your reasoning for why you think the price is fair, not your technical knowledge - you are correct in your assessment regarding current. Speaking of current, I do wonder if USB-C cables are rated for that kind of current flow. Naturally the one supplied is, but I see some risk of cables overheating if they're off-brand.

Personally I would prefer a custom rail on the bottom and an additional power and USB plug on the top of the system. It would allow the unit to be seated into the dock more snuggly *and* it would allow for charging the system while playing in tablet mode which at present is impossible due to the inconveniently placed port. That, and ripple introduced from the PSU could potentially cause issues with data transfer at a higher than usual current - keeping charge current and data signals separate reduces that risk.

Let's call it a difference of opinion in terms of design. You could achieve the same effect significantly cheaper. By the way, you technically could push 5V *or* 15V over the same wire, just not simultaneously - the hub negotiates connection mode already. It'd complicate things, but it's doable. Alternatively you could just use a small transformer with one primary and two secondaries to provide both voltages from the same source, but that's getting into the juicy tidbits of electrical engineering that go beyond the scope of the topic.

If you're pricing the dock at about $60 then I'm inclined to shake hands on that. This makes the mark-up from "fair price" to "retail price" of $90 50%, which is relatively high for consoles, but not unacceptable or unheard of in the world of electronic goods.

How does that sound? Truce?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It could be done cheaper. I just like that for once, they didn't do that, and went with emerging standards instead. An (extra) power port near the top would be nice indeed. Heck... with the relative bare-bones design the switch has inside, it might actually be feasible to hack that in without messing the console up too much. Not going to try that anytime soon though :-)
Do note that the dock (separately) actually *is* priced $60 at retail. It's the dock *set* that costs $90, which includes a power adapter as well (which is also available for $30 separately, so the set isn't a great deal in that regard). Perhaps that's where our discussion originated from in the first place?

PS: Oh, and for the record, pushing 15V or 5V over the same wire (not simultaneously) is exactly what the dock and power adapter both are able to do, and the main cause that makes it relatively expensive to produce these things.