Net Neutrality: what it is, and why you should care

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UPDATE: It's been voted for repeal. The FCC took Net Neutrality to a vote, and it was 3-2, in favor of repeal. This doesn't mean overnight upheaval, but things will certainly change, for better or worse, in due time.
If you've been on the internet at all the past week, there's a high chance that you've heard of something called "Net Neutrality", and you've also likely heard that there might be huge changes to your usage of the internet entirely. This post serves as a quick information briefing on what Net Neutrality is, what could happen if it's repealed, and the current events going on regarding it, and just general visibility to let the community in general be informed.

What is this Net Neutrality thing?


The basic definition of network neutrality is simple: all internet traffic is considered and treated equally. It was established just a bit under three years ago, in February 2015. It prevented companies like Comcast Xfinity and AT&T U-verse from speeding up, or slowing down certain sites based upon content. If you remember, back in July 2017, mobile provider Verizon admitted to targeting Netflix traffic, and specifically throttling it, negatively affecting customers' use of Netflix. Going back to 2014, there were also issues with Comcast customers, and, that's right, Netflix users, as connections to Netflix were notoriously slow. Netflix then entered a legal deal with Comcast, in order to have Netflix connections be faster than they previously were. The 2014 incident was pre-net neutrality, and shows that before the law was enacted, certain sites like Netflix were indeed slowed, and had to specifically bargain with large telecommunication monopolies like Comcast to get fair speeds out to their customers.

In April 2017, the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), Ajit Pai, revealed that he had plans to repeal net neutrality. It's worth noting that Pai was once the Associate General Counsel of Verizon Communications, an incredibly high up position with an ISP, who we've stated before as having throttled websites in the past.

Pai's statements on the matter included saying such things as "[the government] would be able to stop micromanaging the internet" and that the FCC and internet service providers would simply have to be "transparent about their practices so that consumers can buy a service plan that's best for them". Shortly after, Comcast began vocally supporting these statements, claiming that government regulation of the internet has been harming innovation and investments of Comcast. David Cohen, the company's Chief Diversity Officer, said that "customers would be clearly informed on our practices [...] Comcast maintains that it does and will not block, throttle, or discriminate against lawful content".

Within the movement for repealing net neutrality, also comes with power being given to the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC would then have the ability to legally charge internet service providers that were not made clear to customers.

You may notice, that within any of the claims made by Pai or Comcast, that equal traffic was never made the focus, instead putting emphasis on making sure these monopolies must be clear and transparent about what they do, but never laying down any solid rules about what they need to be transparent about or why. And, of course, if the FTC were to go after AT&T, Comcast, Verizon, Time Warner, or other assorted companies for not being transparent, these legal cases would find themselves taking years to make their way to court, allowing for them to have their way with their customers until a definitive legal ruling. Therein lies the first batch of unease and controversy with the repeal.

In short, net neutrality is a fairly new regulation, which allows for equal traffic between all sites while using the internet. The chairman of the FCC and former higher-up of Verizon wants to repeal it, however. This would allow less government interference with ISPs, but would also allow those ISPs to do what they wish, so long as they're "transparent".

Does repealing Net Neutrality have any benefits?

Spoiler alert: not really

From the inception of the internet, and up until 2015, Americans have gone without net neutrality. Ajit Pai claims that should we not have net neutrality anymore, more rural areas would be able to have more companies and providers, and it would allow for more competition and choice for the consumer. However, these smaller companies would also have to fight it out with established services, with years of experience and infrastructure refinements.

As a side note, I've spent thirty minutes researching a potential "pro" argument. I've not found many that seem reasonable. I've listed in the spoiler tag below arguments from other websites and blogs.

Green Garage Blog: While net neutrality allows for freedom of speech, the downside is that almost anything can be posted to the internet. This means that the cruelest or insensitive information imaginable can end up on the internet, and as a result, it can cause a lot of problems from people that otherwise wouldn’t be prone to being under the microscope of criticism. This means that people can post cruel, intimidating, or other harassing messages and often get away with it thanks to free speech legislation. So it can be a very toxic environment for a lot of people to put up with.

Vittana: Reduced income from internet uses limits infrastructure improvements.
There are certain businesses and high-use individuals who consume large amounts of bandwidth every month. If net neutrality was removed, these high-level consumers would be asked to pay more for what they consume. This added income could then be used to upgrade the infrastructure of each internet service provider, making it possible for advanced fiber networks to be installed in many communities.

AEI: But in many instances, fast lanes, zero-rating, and the like benefit customers. In separate research, both former FCC Chief Economist Michael Katz (with Ben Hermalin) and I (with Janice Hauge) showed that fast lanes benefit small content providers in their attempts to compete with established industry leaders. AEI scholar Roslyn Layton has shown that elderly and low-income consumers benefit from zero-rating services.

Basically, the only benefit would be if America's current economy wasn't dominated by monopolistic ISPs. Below is an interview with Ajit Pai, showing his perspective.


Scrapping these rules, Pai told Reason's Nick Gillespie, won't harm consumers or the public interest because there was no reason for them in the first place. The rationales were mere "phantoms that were conjured up by people who wanted the FCC for political reasons to overregulate the internet," Pai told Gillespie. "We were not living in a digital dystopia in the years leading up to 2015."

If left in place, however, the Title II rules could harm the commercial internet, which Pai described as "one of the most incredible free market innovations in history."

"Companies like Google and Facebook and Netflix became household names precisely because we didn't have the government micromanaging how the internet would operate," said Pai, who noted that the Clinton-era decision not to regulate the Internet like a phone utility or a broadcast network was one of the most important factors in the rise of our new economy.

Pai also pushed back against claims that he's a right-wing radical who's "fucking things up."

"[I ascribe to] the very radical, right-wing position that the Clinton administration basically got it right when it came to digital infrastructure."


What happens if/when this gets repealed, and what does this mean for you?


The worst part of this, is that there's no definitive answer of what WILL happen, only what CAN happen. What has people concerned, though, is the potential things that larger ISPs can do with this new power, should net neutrality be repealed. Internet service providers could slow access to specific sites, and speed up others, in theory, others specifically being sites who pay ISPs for faster access, and those partnered or in contracts with ISPs. Websites like Google, Amazon, Reddit, Etsy, Netflix, and many more have all broadcast their support of net neutrality, stating that without these rules in place thanks to net neutrality, internet providers would become gatekeepers to the internet, restricting what customers can see. Without definitive government restrictions, these companies could be free to split access to the internet into packages, like cable TV, indeed making true on the intention of lowering the cost of internet access, but also making it more difficult and expensive to see all of the internet, as you can right now.

Likely, what will happen, though everything is up in the air, is that certain ISPs will utilize what's called "fast lanes" and "zero rating". Fast lanes are sort of like what we talked about at the start, with Netflix and Comcast. Currently, these fast lanes and zero rating are used with mobile phone data. AT&T customers can watch DirecTV (owned by AT&T) via their mobile data, without it counting towards their monthly cap. These rules could be applied to home internet as well; if you're a Comcast user, and you want to watch Hulu (owned by NBC-Universal-Comcast), maybe your connection to Hulu will be lightning fast, thanks to these theoretical fast lanes, and they won't go towards your Comcast monthly 1 Terabyte home cap. But what if you want to watch Netflix? Either Netflix will have much lower picture quality, or take a longer time to connect to. And if Netflix pays a fee, or gets into a contract once again with Comcast, then that potentially means that Netflix's increased costs move down to the consumer, who also now has to pay more for a service as well.

What can we do?


The only thing left to do is let your voice be heard. Social media has exploded without people decrying the impending repeal of net neutrality, and the negatives that it would entail, to the point of where the majority of Reddit has been plastered with net neutrality posts.

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The FCC will take the repeal to a vote on December 14, 2017. It is highly predicted that the repeal will pass, and net neutrality will come to an end. Millions have taken to the site "battleforthenet" and "callmycongress" to contact their local representatives and congressmen in order to show that American citizens don't want net neutrality destroyed.

You can learn more at the links below. Hopefully this is helpful in describing what net neutrality is, and why it shouldn't be taken away.

:arrow:Techcrunch: These are the arguments against net neutrality and why they're wrong

:arrow: Extra Credits: What a closed internet means

:arrow:Phillip DeFranco: The Internet is under attack

:arrow:Save the internet: What you need to know


:arrow:Ars Technica: RIP net neutrality
 

ThisIsDaAccount

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You haven't seen any evidence that says it's going to suck yet you're already saying it's bad? Come on dude. Get real.
Speaking from a similar experience, Comcast isn't a good company to its customers. The reason both he and I stick to it is because there's no one better.

I don't trust them to do what's best for us.
 
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Speaking from a similar experience, Comcast isn't a good company to its customers. The reason both he and I stick to it is because there's no one better.

I don't trust them to do what's best for us.
This isn't Comcast that's mandating ISPs. This is the FCC and FTC combined. If, say, the FCC were bought out like people are disingenuously claiming, the FTC, which has not been bought out (as the current chairman of it is a lawyer who specializes in and has a history of anti-trust violation cases) can still come in and fuck up the ISPs thanks to the regulations put in place.

Sorry man but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. This is either going to be harmless, or a legitimately good thing.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I seriously don't understand you people. You hate throttling, you hate blocking, you hate censorship, and so on, and so when a bill comes in that removes the old rules that have clearly not blocked this shit at all you start protesting because you...want it to stay the same? Again, have literally any of you read the bill?
 
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ThisIsDaAccount

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This isn't Comcast that's mandating ISPs. This is the FCC and FTC combined. If, say, the FCC were bought out like people are disingenuously claiming, the FTC, which has not been bought out (as the current chairman of it is a lawyer who specializes in and has a history of anti-trust violation cases) can still come in and fuck up the ISPs thanks to the regulations put in place.

Sorry man but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. This is either going to be harmless, or a legitimately good thing.
I'm not saying it's Comcast mandating ISPs, I'm saying that they'll find a way to squeeze money out of this no matter what's best for consumers. They're not exactly above that.
 
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I'm not saying it's Comcast mandating ISPs, I'm saying that they'll find a way to squeeze money out of this no matter what's best for consumers. They're not exactly above that.
But they won't because that kind of anti-trust behavior is specifically mandated against by the proposal that you still haven't read. If they did that, they'd get fucked by the FTC and/or the FCC in a big shrek super slam.
 
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ThisIsDaAccount

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But they won't because that kind of anti-trust behavior is specifically mandated against by the proposal that you still haven't read. If they did that, they'd get fucked by the FTC and/or the FCC in a big shrek super slam.

That's where we disagree I guess, I sincerely doubt they'll see any consequences if they do.

Keep in mind that Comcast didn't really see any consequences when they throttled Netflix before in 2013, and they can just claim that it's a matter of too much bandwidth being used or come up with another bullshit reason. That's what they all do.

Let me be clear that I don't look down on you for disagreeing with me, but I do think you're misguided in this instance.
 
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That's where we disagree I guess, I sincerely doubt they'll see any consequences if they do.

Keep in mind that Comcast didn't really see any consequences when they throttled Netflix before in 2013, and they can just claim that it's a matter of too much bandwidth being used or come up with another bullshit reason. That's what they all do.

Let me be clear that I don't look down on you for disagreeing with me, but I do think you're misguided in this instance.
I appreciate that you're being civil about this, glad we can have that kind of discussion.
That said, I don't understand how you can call me misguided. Can you point out how I am? I've read the proposal from top to bottom and posted a massive wall of text that breaks down everything that it's going to do. Am I misguided in believing that if the FCC were intent on doing nothing and letting the ISPs do whatever they want, they would have changed the current rules to specifically block the things ISPs want to do? That doesn't make sense to me.

Secondly, the rules specifically say they can't throttle stuff like Netflix. They *specifically* mentioned Netflix *by name.* I don't know about you but that seems to me like there's some clear sincerity here. I don't see legitimate reasons to doubt them other than "well they did bad things in the past and these rules that are specifically written for the bad things are going to mean nothing!"

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also holy fuck do I appreciate that you're not looking down on me or anyone of my stance, and I don't look down on you either for disagreeing. I think we both see each other as misguided and that's something I'm fine with. I don't think you're misguided because you're less intelligent or something, but moreso because the discussion is plagued with fallacious materials and people wrongly shoving their agenda into everything. You're not at fault for having little factual information to go upon.
 
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the_randomizer

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You haven't seen any evidence that says it's going to suck yet you're already saying it's bad? Come on dude. Get real.

Have you seen any that will say it'll be good? How do you know they won't abuse or make up tiered/prioritized internet packages like cell phone plans?
 
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ThisIsDaAccount

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I appreciate that you're being civil about this, glad we can have that kind of discussion.
That said, I don't understand how you can call me misguided. Can you point out how I am? I've read the proposal from top to bottom and posted a massive wall of text that breaks down everything that it's going to do. Am I misguided in believing that if the FCC were intent on doing nothing and letting the ISPs do whatever they want, they would have changed the current rules to specifically block the things ISPs want to do? That doesn't make sense to me.

Secondly, the rules specifically say they can't throttle stuff like Netflix. They *specifically* mentioned Netflix *by name.* I don't know about you but that seems to me like there's some clear sincerity here. I don't see legitimate reasons to doubt them other than "well they did bad things in the past and these rules that are specifically written for the bad things are going to mean nothing!"
A lot of the times in the past (when this was legal) ISPs would look for any other reason to claim for throttling or blocking stuff. For example, they'd claim that something uses up too much bandwidth or resources but coincidentally have a stake in a competing product to the one being throttled. I think it's slightly misguided to place absolute trust in them to look past ISPs excuses.

I don't trust the current FCC under Chairman Pai to not give them a pass if they do stuff like that. They could just as well claim that the product not being throttled is "optimized" and doesn't need throttling.

That's just me I guess, but I feel like a lot of Comcast/Verizon customers here might agree. I understand where you're coming from though.
 
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A lot of the times in the past (when this was legal) ISPs would look for any other reason to claim for throttling or blocking stuff. For example, they'd claim that something uses up too much bandwidth or resources but coincidentally have a stake in a competing product to the one being throttled. I think it's slightly misguided to place absolute trust in them to look past ISPs excuses.

I don't trust the current FCC under Chairman Pai to not give them a pass if they do stuff like that. They could just as well claim that the product not being throttled is "optimized" and doesn't need throttling.

That's just me I guess, but I feel like a lot of Comcast/Verizon customers here might agree. I understand where you're coming from though.
No, I don't think you understand, throttling legal content is not permitted. Period. Doesn't matter if it's optimized or not, they're going to have to fix their infrastructure to support that. What they will allow throttling of is illegal content, so unless Netflix is suddenly illegal, they can't throttle it. Period. At all. You're placing unfair blame on Ajit Pai too, because the chairman of the FTC and the FTC as a whole is able to also punish ISPs as well.

If you distrust one guy, sure, that's fine, but two? One of which is literally a lawyer who has been involved in cases against companies abusing antitrust laws? This isn't a "ISPs might get away with it because Ajit Pai is the chairman" thing, it's more of a "there's two groups who now have full jurisdiction over ISPs because broad, heavyhanded laws are being removed."

Of course Comcast and Verizon customers are going to agree, but they're agreeing on emotion and logic. You'd think the people shat on so much by their ISP would be clambering to rally support for this, but the "net neutrality nutters" as I call them, who call any change to the regulations an attack even when it's clearly bolstering it got to them first so the brainwashing has commenced.
 

TotalInsanity4

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Wrong. They have to make that list, and it is restricted to ILLEGAL content. Illegal content only. Again, I made a huge post breaking this stuff down. https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-24#post-7733668
See, the thing about your post that you made is that it cherry picks statements from the document that end up making passive statements seem like policy. For example, the "Netflix" quote of "If an ISP that also sells video services degrades the speed or quality of competing “Over the Top” video services (such as Netflix),526 that conduct could be challenged as anticompetitive foreclosure." is contained within a large block of text that says
145. Most of the examples of net neutrality violations discussed in the Title II Order could have been investigated as antitrust violations. Madison River Communications blocked access to VoIP to foreclose competition to its telephony business; an antitrust case would have focused on whether the company was engaged in anticompetitive foreclosure to preserve any monopoly power it may have had over telephony. Whether one regards Comcast’s behavior toward BitTorrent as blocking or throttling,522 it could have been pursued either as an antitrust or consumer protection case. The Commission noted that BitTorrent’s service allowed users to view video that they might otherwise have to purchase through Comcast’s Video on Demand service523—a claim that would be considered an anticompetitive foreclosure claim under antitrust.524 Comcast also failed to disclose this network management practice and initially denied that it was engaged in any throttling525—potentially unfair or deceptive acts or practices. If an ISP that also sells video services degrades the speed or quality of competing “Over the Top” video services (such as Netflix),526 that conduct could be challenged as anticompetitive foreclosure.
146. Among the benefits of the antitrust laws over public utility regulation are (1) the rule of reason allows a balancing of pro-competitive benefits and anti-competitive harms; (2) the case-by-case nature of antitrust allows for the regulatory humility needed when dealing with the dynamic Internet; (3) the antitrust laws focus on protecting competition; and (4) the same long-practiced and well-understood laws apply to all Internet actors.
To break that down, what the author of the bill is saying is that instead of having ISPs regulated under Title II, they should just default under antitrust laws. And as I said before, that looks great on paper... except that that was tried already. In 2010. And the reason that ISPs are now classifed as "common carriers, which allowed them to be placed under Title II, and also includes regulations on transparency and content blocking, is because Verizon and Comcast both repeatedly overstepped their boundaries, attempting to sue the FCC to fuck over customers with throttling. Verizon in particular actually throttled Netflix, which led to the above situation. Ironically enough, this was less than four years after the "Open Internet Act" went into effect, which did exactly what the "Restoring Internet Freedom" bill is trying to do now. Source

Now, I don't know why said anti-trust laws weren't effective against such actions, and if you want to explain that to me, you have two very attentive ears (erm, in this case, eyes, I guess), but all that I can say is that what we have now is a heck of a lot more effective at keeping ISPs in line than what we had previously.
 
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ThisIsDaAccount

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No, I don't think you understand, throttling legal content is not permitted. Period. Doesn't matter if it's optimized or not, they're going to have to fix their infrastructure to support that. What they will allow throttling of is illegal content, so unless Netflix is suddenly illegal, they can't throttle it. Period. At all. You're placing unfair blame on Ajit Pai too, because the chairman of the FTC and the FTC as a whole is able to also punish ISPs as well.

If you distrust one guy, sure, that's fine, but two? One of which is literally a lawyer who has been involved in cases against companies abusing antitrust laws? This isn't a "ISPs might get away with it because Ajit Pai is the chairman" thing, it's more of a "there's two groups who now have full jurisdiction over ISPs because broad, heavyhanded laws are being removed."

Of course Comcast and Verizon customers are going to agree, but they're agreeing on emotion and logic. You'd think the people shat on so much by their ISP would be clambering to rally support for this, but the "net neutrality nutters" as I call them, who call any change to the regulations an attack even when it's clearly bolstering it got to them first so the brainwashing has commenced.
Under the proposal it wouldn't be the FCCs job to promote these rules, it'd have to the Sherman guy and such. He didn't do anything in 2013 (I did read your posts btw, this is my response after reading them)

I think the best bet to ensure fair competition is thst the FCC regulate net neutrality like it is now


Edit: Ninja'd

Edit2: I'm hungry and I wanna go play on my Switch, so I'll tag out for now. Good discussion @MaverickWellington
 
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Under the proposal it wouldn't be the FCCs job to promote these rules, it'd have to the Sherman guy and such. He didn't do anything in 2013 (I did read your posts btw, this is my response after reading them)

I think the best bet to ensure fair competition is thst the FCC regulate net neutrality like it is now


Edit: Ninja'd

Edit2: I'm hungry and I wanna go play on my Switch, so I'll tag out for now. Good discussion @MaverickWellington
I gotta make dinner and I'm probably gonna play Paper Mario for a bit so I'll be back later. Good discussion to you too. Glad civility is still possible in this debate.
 
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Chary

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Regardless of one's opinion, things are getting down to the wire. The matter will be decided on the 14th, and it looks like some congressman is trying to get a bill in to prevent the repeal before the time limit is up.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Keep in mind, everyone, that even if the bill passes in the FCC, they still have to get the bill both through Congress and past a review by the supreme court. Don't stop protesting, but do NOT lose hope if the FCC passes their version of the bill on Thursday. Keep calling your representatives and make sure this dies EARLY
 

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Keep in mind, everyone, that even if the bill passes in the FCC, they still have to get the bill both through Congress and past a review by the supreme court. Don't stop protesting, but do NOT lose hope if the FCC passes their version of the bill on Thursday. Keep calling your representatives and make sure this dies EARLY
We have a flawed legal system, this will never work, didn't you see my previous post? THAT is the sign of someone who lost hope! You see it every time you play super mario bros and you find luigi making that face.

Now if Luigi had the face @Chary has, that would be the look of hope and confidence. That is someone who luigi needs to look up to. Even though, is almost time. This is harder than returning a book back to library before it's overdue. :ninja:
 
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