Gaming My ability to go fast in a Sonic game has been hindered. HELP

riozaur

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EDIT: ISSUE NOW FIXABLE THANKS TO NDS-BOOTSTRAP UPDATE


I've recently bougth a new 2DS XL and installed CFW using a class 10 SD card (no flashcart) following this lovely guide. Everything works fine, except for the Sonic Rush rom specifically.
The game suffers from terrible slowdown, especially on bosses, completely killing my enjoyment of the game (cuz, y'know, gOtTa gO FaSt). The slowdown was fixed by enabling TWL clock speed, at the cost of making the game terribly unstable (which turns out to be well documented, so that's not just a problem on my end), so the issue remains unfixed.
I looked through a bunch of gameplay videos, to see if the game always had slowdown and there's just no way around it, but the game seems to run perfectly fine for other people. Interestingly, the only case i could find of someone mentioning slowdown in the game is in this Gamefaqs post where OP talks about the lags, specifically on 3DS as well, only for everyone in the replies to say that they don't remember any slowdown. Should also note that OP seems to have been playing on a real cartridge, so it's probably not a problem with the rom.

This leaves me with the following question: are DS games known to run slower on the 3DS? I understand that these are being emulated and not run natively (edit: that's wrong), but i find it hard to believe that Nintendo would enable full backwards compatibility if the games didn't run perfectly. I also feel like if this really was a general 3DS problem, i'd surely be able to find more people talking about it. I mean, Sonic Rush is a popular game and a lot of people have some version of a 3DS, so how come i could find only one mention of the issue? On top of that, i'm using a new 2DS, so surely this would've been even worse on an old 3DS (edit: that's also wrong).
And if the game is supposed run fine on a 3DS, then what might be the issue?

Also, sorry if i've posted this in the wrong sub-category, really wasn't sure where to put this.
 
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Kwyjor

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On top of that, i'm using a new 2DS, so surely this would've been even worse on an old 3DS.
I can't imagine why a New 3DS/2DS would perform differently in DS mode compared to an old 3DS/2DS.

It certainly sounds like an intriguing problem. I was going to suggest TWiLight Menu's RAM disk option, but apparently that's just for homebrew.
 

Kwyjor

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Doesn't the new 3DS have a better CPU than the old one? Pretty sure that's why Xenoblade is exclusive to new.
Yes, and various other titles also get a noticeable boost. But the point is the CPU would be running at the same speed in DS mode regardless of whether it is New or Old. (Or if you enabled TWL clock speed on an old 3DS, it would run at the same speed as a New 3DS with TWL clock speed enabled.)
 
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Guggimon

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Well This is weird... It must run at normal speeds (I had a Had a New 3ds, New 3ds xl and New 2ds xL) so i tested my games on all of them and both 3ds as new 3ds as ds games work fine. no issues, Maybe it is your new 2ds or maybe it is the cardr itself???
 
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I've recently bougth a new 2DS XL and installed CFW using a class 10 SD card (no flashcart) following this lovely guide. Everything works fine, except for the Sonic Rush rom specifically.
The game suffers from terrible slowdown, especially on bosses, completely killing my enjoyment of the game (cuz, y'know, gOtTa gO FaSt). The slowdown was fixed by enabling TWL clock speed, at the cost of making the game terribly unstable (which turns out to be well documented, so that's not just a problem on my end), so the issue remains unfixed.
I looked through a bunch of gameplay videos, to see if the game always had slowdown and there's just no way around it, but the game seems to run perfectly fine for other people. Interestingly, the only case i could find of someone mentioning slowdown in the game is in this Gamefaqs post where OP talks about the lags, specifically on 3DS as well, only for everyone in the replies to say that they don't remember any slowdown. Should also note that OP seems to have been playing on a real cartridge, so it's probably not a problem with the rom.

This leaves me with the following question: are DS games known to run slower on the 3DS? I understand that these are being emulated and not run natively, but i find it hard to believe that Nintendo would enable full backwards compatibility if the games didn't run perfectly. I also feel like if this really was a general 3DS problem, i'd surely be able to find more people talking about it. I mean, Sonic Rush is a popular game and a lot of people have some version of a 3DS, so how come i could find only one mention of the issue? On top of that, i'm using a new 2DS, so surely this would've been even worse on an old 3DS.
And if the game is supposed run fine on a 3DS, then what might be the issue?

Also, sorry if i've posted this in the wrong sub-category, really wasn't sure where to put this.
DS games are not emulated, they run natively on the 3DS (the 3DS basically has the DS hardware still in it for BC)
It sounds like you're using TWLmenu++. Maybe the slowdown is normal with that. It's still running natively and not emulated, but DS games are not meant to read from the 3DS SD card, making things work in a way they were not supposed to is not a trivial task so there can and will be issues.
I've played the game on a DS flashcart in the past without issues. A DS flashcart will give you 100% compatibility, shouldn't matter whether you're playing on a DS, DSi or 3DS.
100% compatibility can't be guaranteed with TWLmenu++/nds-bootstrap, but free is free.
If you want guaranteed 100% compatibility (minus a few games that use slot-2 peripherals like the Guitar Hero DS games since the slot-2 addons obviously cannot work on a 3DS) then buy a DS flashcart.
 
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riozaur

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Maybe it is your new 2ds or maybe it is the cardr itself???
Most likely not a problem with my specific SD card as i've also used a different one before and had the same issue + the current one is class 10 which is apparently pretty good.


DS games are not emulated, they run natively on the 3DS (the 3DS basically has the DS hardware still in it for BC)
It sounds like you're using TWLmenu++. Maybe the slowdown is normal with that. It's still running natively and not emulated, but DS games are not meant to read from the 3DS SD card, making things work in a way they were not supposed to is not a trivial task so there can and will be issues.
I've played the game on a DS flashcart in the past without issues. A DS flashcart will give you 100% compatibility, shouldn't matter whether you're playing on a DS, DSi or 3DS.
100% compatibility can't be guaranteed with TWLmenu++/nds-bootstrap, but free is free.
If you want guaranteed 100% compatibility (minus a few games that use slot-2 peripherals like the Guitar Hero DS games since the slot-2 addons obviously cannot work on a 3DS) then buy a DS flashcart.
Interesting. For some reason i was convinced it's being emulated. This makes the situation even weirder though.
I'm using a forwarder so i'm pretty sure it's not running through Twilight, although i do have it installed which may be doing something.
I also had the idea that the problem might stem from loading the game off the SD card, as opposed to a an actual cartridge/flashcart, but brushed it off since the game slows down the most during bossfights, which take place on small static arenas, so loading data shouldn't be the issue. After reading your reply though, i am fully willing to believe that this is actually all because of the game being on the card.
Thanks for your reply, very informative! I'll get myself either an R4 or just the original game and report back to you guys.

Also, just quickly wanted to say that you people on this forum are super nice and helpful! Usually on forums like this people tend to be pretty hostile when a newcommer asks about something, yet somehow this is the second thread where i ask a newbie question and don't get mixed with mud by 'galaxy-brain hackers', like on certain other sites.
Thanks!!
 
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Most likely not a problem with my specific SD card as i've also used a different one before and had the same issue + the current one is class 10 which is apparently pretty good.



Interesting. For some reason i was convinced it's being emulated. This makes the situation even weirder though.
I'm using a forwarder so i'm pretty sure it's not running through Twilight, although i do have it installed which may be doing something.
I also had the idea that the problem might stem from loading the game off the SD card, as opposed to a an actual cartridge/flashcart, but brushed it off since the game slows down the most during bossfights, which take place on small static arenas, so loading data shouldn't be the issue. After reading your reply though, i am fully willing to believe that this is actually all because of the game being on the card.
Thanks for your reply, very informative! I'll get myself either an R4 or just the original game and report back to you guys.

Also, just quickly wanted to say that you people on this forum are super nice and helpful! Usually on forums like this people tend to be pretty hostile when a newcommer asks about something, yet somehow this is the second thread where i ask a newbie question and don't get mixed with mud by 'galaxy-brain hackers', like on certain other sites.
Thanks!!
nds-bootstrap is the part that actually runs the game, whether you use TWLmenu++ or forwarders, so the same things apply.

You're very welcome :)
 
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Guggimon

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Most likely not a problem with my specific SD card as i've also used a different one before and had the same issue + the current one is class 10 which is apparently pretty good.



Interesting. For some reason i was convinced it's being emulated. This makes the situation even weirder though.
I'm using a forwarder so i'm pretty sure it's not running through Twilight, although i do have it installed which may be doing something.
I also had the idea that the problem might stem from loading the game off the SD card, as opposed to a an actual cartridge/flashcart, but brushed it off since the game slows down the most during bossfights, which take place on small static arenas, so loading data shouldn't be the issue. After reading your reply though, i am fully willing to believe that this is actually all because of the game being on the card.
Thanks for your reply, very informative! I'll get myself either an R4 or just the original game and report back to you guys.

Also, just quickly wanted to say that you people on this forum are super nice and helpful! Usually on forums like this people tend to be pretty hostile when a newcommer asks about something, yet somehow this is the second thread where i ask a newbie question and don't get mixed with mud by 'galaxy-brain hackers', like on certain other sites.
Thanks!!
Msybe its the rom?? I tested Sonic Rush with TWL menu ++ and that worked fine no slowdown or anything (Maybe the AP kicks in idk???)
 
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riozaur

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Msybe its the rom?? I tested Sonic Rush with TWL menu ++ and that worked fine no slowdown or anything (Maybe the AP kicks in idk???)
Huh. Guess i'll have to try a different rom then. Can you tell me where you got yours or is that not allowed on here?
 

riozaur

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Tried a bunch of different roms, reinstalled Twilight, played around with the settings, nothing works.
I'll be grabbing an actual Sonic Rush cartridge when i get the chance, will get back to you all about the results.
Any other ideas still appreciated though.
 

ChiefReginod

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The "Class 10" designation only means that it writes data at 10 MBps (and only under optimal conditions). This has no bearing whatsoever on read speeds. There are lots of class 10 SD cards with slow read speeds. That said, read speeds on 3DS are bottle-necked at 30-ish MBps even with cards that are faster than that. So maybe test your card and see if it's at about that speed or higher.

Also, unfortunately, DS compatibility on 3DS via TWL/ndsbootstrap just isn't as high as using a DS flash cart. I don't know if that's the case here since someone else said it seemed to run fine, but in general that's how it goes. I would suggest not using a forwarder until you figure it out, though. The less variables, the better.
 
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riozaur

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The "Class 10" designation only means that it writes data at 10 MBps (and only under optimal conditions). This has no bearing whatsoever on read speeds. There are lots of class 10 SD cards with slow read speeds. That said, read speeds on 3DS are bottle-necked at 30-ish MBps even with cards that are faster than that. So maybe test your card and see if it's at about that speed or higher.

Also, unfortunately, DS compatibility on 3DS via TWL/ndsbootstrap just isn't as high as using a DS flash cart. I don't know if that's the case here since someone else said it seemed to run fine, but in general that's how it goes. I would suggest not using a forwarder until you figure it out, though. The less variables, the better.
Good to know, the Amazon page for my card claims "up to 120mb/s" read speed but i'll run some tests to check that.

I've got some hilarious news though. I've already played ~15 DS/3DS games, and had no issues with any of them, except for that god forsaken Sonic Rush. Well i've managed to find a second game with similar slowdown issues to Rush.
Take a wild guess.
It's Sonic Rush Adventure xD.
To be fair, i didn't notice any slowdown during gameplay yet, but the opening with everyone on waterbikes slows down so hard the music cuts off for a good 3 seconds until the visuals catch up. Interestingly, this happens on TWL speed (haven't checked what happens on NTR speed yet, but i'm scared to even try). I guess there must be something with the games' engine that really messes with my specific setup.
God dammit Dimps.

Here's some footage of the slowdown, now that i don't have to play the game to show it.
 

riozaur

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Aight lads, finally got the cartridge, and as foretold by Jdbye and ChiefReginod, it runs like a dream!
Also huuuge shout outs to Guggimon for trying to figure the issue out with me in private!

As i said, the game works perfectly from the cartridge but if anyone has any new ideas as to why it was lagging from the SD card on my system, please leave them here, i'm still really curious about that (i checked the read speeds btw and it reaches about 35mb/s, so that's probably not the issue either).

Thanks everyone!
 

AleronIves

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You should post in the TM++ thread since it's probably a TM++ bug. The 3DS has the DS's ARM9 CPU in it still, so the DS CPU speed is exactly the same regardless of whether you use the real cart or TM++.
 
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SirAileron

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Also, make sure that what you use to make the forwarder is actually using an up-to-date version of nds-bootstrap. TwilightMenu++ typically ships with whatever latest version there is, and the updater tool that's out there can download the nightly builds if you want to try those.
 
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riozaur

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You should post in the TM++ thread since it's probably a TM++ bug. The 3DS has the DS's ARM9 CPU in it still, so the DS CPU speed is exactly the same regardless of whether you use the real cart or TM++.
Thanks for the recommendation, i decided to post on the nds-bootstrap thread though, as the issue persists even when running the game outside Twilight. Here's my post.

Also, make sure that what you use to make the forwarder is actually using an up-to-date version of nds-bootstrap. TwilightMenu++ typically ships with whatever latest version there is, and the updater tool that's out there can download the nightly builds if you want to try those.
Everything is up to date, made sure of that multiple times. Haven't tried a nightly build though!
 

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Well, that's exciting. I know some people reporting it working fine could have been running it on a version that maybe predated the issue, or was before a milestone change introduced unintended bugs. If you look at the changelogs for the versions, it's not entirely uncommon to find regressions like that.
 
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