1. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    And we are back to mandatory mask wearing in supermarkets, banks and post offices in austria again, starting on friday. The chancellor has spoken... ;)

    https://www.diepresse.com/5842623/wie-die-zweite-corona-welle-verhindert-werden-soll (german)

    edit: Meanwhile:
    https://www.derstandard.at/story/20...in-supermarkt-banken-und-postfilialen-zurueck
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 21, 2020
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  2. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    This Time,the FPÖ and NEOS have the correct Words for this "Farce"....

    The FPÖ cannot gain anything from the government's actions. In addition to symbolism, the mask "really has no effect", but is "pure chicane, with which you pretend to the public a kind of activity, but above all that can frighten people," said FPÖ club chairman Herbert Kickl. The government obviously says "staging instead of evidence-based measures," said NEOS health spokesman Gerald Loacker. The mask requirement is confusing and contradicts any scientific evidence and the announced plans to take regional measures.
     
  3. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Kickl.. ;) Having people wear masks has an effect on the dispersion of aerosols, and mucus particles - with Covid-19 most of the virus material is heavy enough to fall out of the air after a couple of minutes, which is why we end up with this 1-1,5m distance rule (as in - this might be enough) and seemingly a lower infection chance in supermarkets (if people keep distance).

    I've posted Dan Ariely in here (probably in a different thread) before ( h**ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HefIT-JgjR4 ) - who was tasked to develop the behavioral response in israel.

    Basically - since you still want to modify peoples behavior, you also do a couple of things that are mostly aimed at changing their behavior. One of the most blatant ones is the 'baby elephant' meme as a measure for the distance people should stay apart. You are not using meters, you are using positive loaded metaphors, so you jump peoples decision processing from rational number based to 'oh, baby elephant - I can do that' resulting in better compliance.

    Similarly with masks - if you want to remind people to keep more distance, you might layer in 'mask wearing in supermarkets' again, and then add postal offices and banks just for good measure, so people working there dont feel left out.. ;) (in the latter two keeping an appropriate distance is even less of an issue)

    As a result you get the desired effect. Which is overall better compliance.

    Now two additional important, points. Mask wearing (en mass) does help (there are studies with chirurgical masks and other Corona viruses), the issue we are conversing is 'when already at low infection risk in a public place (say supermarkets in summer)' how much mask do you need additionally? And the answer presumably is 'exactly as much as it takes for people to change their behavior in general (and therefore at home, or at work as well)' where it is far harder for you as a state to legislate into. So you are after an indirect effect.

    Second, the entire calculation changes significantly - when a larger percentage of your population is infected (it makes more sense then to go after the direct effect, statistically). So the general assessment 'masks do not work' is wrong on several levels if you look at it that condensed.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 22, 2020
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  4. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    *sigh*

    It will be a very long Summer.....
    And it does not really seem,that People getting really smarter.....

    We will talk in December 2020 than,my Friend.:)
     
  5. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA President Elect of the United States of Reality
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    You cannot create a vaccine for a virus. They improvise, they adapt, and they overcome. If we had a vaccine for any virus, it would be for the common cold. The coronavirus will be here until the end of time. Give up. Loosen up. Go back to normal. Tear off your mask. Live.
     
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  6. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Neh.

    Issue is, that you dont have any sort of crowd immunity going. Which means, if you 'just let it spread' it spreads exponentially (as a Corona virus being submitted from human to human ("high infection rates (every person infects three others (if no measures are taken))")).

    Even if a virus mutates, on many strains you are supposed to have a faster residual immune response, if you already had 'something like it' once, acting as a natural stop gap on propagation speed.

    With Covid-19 this is missing. (And still missing for a long time (1-10% of population infected at most)).

    So while what you are saying is not wrong at all and would be the 'a psychologically healthy response', if we all acted like that - we would drive up numbers of people dying from it - for literally no reason.

    At the same time it is exactly the response that psychologists are telling us is typical for america - which is an entire society based around not caring about what happens to people near you, If you can avoid it. ;) So not only is the response logical - it is expected.

    At the same time though, you really have to do something, if you dont want to end up like the US.. ;) (Worse death rate than Brasil or Russia (although I wouldnt trust both of those numbers. (Both have autocrats in power (all three countries actually.. ;) ))))

    Also - there are actual virus based illnesses that were extinguished (some only in parts of the world, but still) because of vaccination. (Polio, ... (granted, this is harder to do with a corona virus) - and to extinguish a virus, you also need to build up residual immunity (everyone gets vaccinated as a child, so the chances of one 'pocket' spreading throughout a population become slime to none. Eradicating only works through building residual immunity in populations.)

    So in short - your opinion, totally fine for a single person to hold - highly problematic if you'd give it out as a general recommendation. If you are promoting that model as the POTUS f.e., you are actively killing people (statistically, but nevertheless).
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 24, 2020
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  7. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    If the Progress of new Infections goes this Way,we have the next Lock Down in the next 2 Weeks....maybe not the whole Country but Upper Austria is the first Candiate I am pretty sure....and I think it has ABSOLUTE NOTHING to do with Germany.....
    (no,not from that Time.....:P).


    The People in Burgenland are apparently more responsible.....
     
  8. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA President Elect of the United States of Reality
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    Been stealing muh Facebroach memes again.
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    Do not get me wrong,I am really not "proud" that everything came as expected.... vain.gif

    It is not funny actual,in which "Chaos" we live actual....
    Again,our "Kanzelohr" Chancellor Kurz keeps out of everything and apparently makes no decisions himself ..but ok this belongs to Anschober´s Ressort...but wait....national "Security/Safety" ? Hmm.....

    - St.Wolfgang is getting more and more out of Control - NO Lock down ?
    - Teachers Union persist on "Mask requirements" and still no "Rules" for September when School is open again...
    - The "Border entry Requirements" are a mess,no one really knows their way around and the Countries outside are now putting us on the list of dangerous States..
    - Our great Lady Tanner "dismantle" the Bundesheer,but they are required for Border Controls and this Things.....

    ...and if that is not enough now here in Burgenland we get maybe also "really" Troubles with the Virus...
    Thank God thankfully we were spared so far.Also I must say here in my Town the People are very,very responsible...maybe because there are "more older and oldest" People and not so much "Party" Clientele here....

    All is set for the........next Lock Down ? We will see.:D
     
  10. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    Maybe the "heard" me...:rofl2:

    https://orf.at/stories/3175272/

    "Mistake happened"
    Anschober announces ministerial reform

    Around 100 legal steps, including decrees and ordinances, have been implemented in the pandemic in the past few months. The Constitutional Court (VfGH) overturned parts of it last week. There was also harsh criticism of the current entry regulations. Minister of Health Rudolf Anschober (Greens) reacted to this and announced a reform in the Ministry of Health on Tuesday.

    In the course of the reform, Anschober wants to undo a change of department by his predecessor Beate Hartinger-Klein (FPÖ). The health minister criticized this organizational reform as weakening the crisis. In the coming year, he also wants to put the 1913 epidemic law on a new footing.

    The legal team should also be increased. After the “bang” of the VfGH, which declared parts of the Covid Measures Act to be inadmissible, these formulations must now be “quickly repaired”. The aim is to deal with the amendment in the National Council in September. There will also be an assessment for this. The court referred to the wording in the Covid Measures Act and saw no general exit bans covered by it.

    Override distance rules

    Ongoing proceedings in areas that were canceled by the VfGH are being discontinued, according to Anschober. A subsequent punishment would be examined, but was “legally highly sensitive”.

    The distance rules were also part of the VfGH complaints. These will now be overridden in the next few days. This is no longer punished across Austria. Anschober nevertheless appealed to personal responsibility in dealing with contacts.

    ÖVP club chairman August Wöginger also announced amendments at another press conference in view of the recent verdict by the constitutional judges, "so that there is the necessary legal basis". The ministries are now examining whether amendments are necessary. "If you need it, we are always ready to implement it."

    "That was bad work"

    In addition, the processes for the creation of legal acts are to be reorganized. The background to this is also the complaints about the entry regulation, which even Anschober takes a critical view: “It was bad work. Period. ”A number of errors had occurred. Anschober: "This must not be repeated."
    Woman with face mask in front of a restaurant

    The constitutional service in the Federal Chancellery must be involved more extensively before the publication of regulations, for example. For this, Anschober announced an instruction. That was a debt from his ministry, which was not fulfilled in the entry regulation. However, Anschober emphasized that it had nothing to do with rivalries and inconsistencies with the constitutional service. In addition, external controlling is needed. The incorrect entry regulation is now corrected at short notice. "But the content will remain. In the medium term, it should be put on a new footing and become more readable, ”Anschober said. This is important because there are currently some travel-related clusters.
    Different interpretations

    Lawyers only found "sloppiness" on Monday with the current entry ordinance. It was too imprecise and could be interpreted differently. The regulation was adopted late Friday evening and has been in effect since Monday. At the weekend, it caused confusion and misinterpretation.

    It now applies that a mandatory PCR test is required to return to Austria from CoV risk areas. If this is not the case at the time of entry, those affected must return to their home quarantine and take the test within 48 hours. Under no circumstances can the quarantine leave third-country nationals - even if they submit a negative PCR test, unless they are resident or habitually resident in Austria.

    While mandatory PCR testing was mentioned in a first press release, the ministry then interpreted the ordinance as an alternative to the (now mandatory) test that it was possible to remain in the ten-day quarantine - without testing. That is not the case. The test must definitely be rescheduled, according to the final information from the Ministry of Health.
    NEOS pleased with "self-knowledge"

    It was "positive to acknowledge that Minister of Health Anschober admitted mistakes and praised improvement", NEOS health spokesman Gerald Loacker responded in a broadcast. The "chaotic picture" of the past week but "certainly not" due to too few employees. Loacker called for “real national ruling” and greater involvement of the opposition.

    The FPÖ has sharply criticized the "accumulation of errors" in the CoV regulations of the Ministry of Social Affairs. "If such a mistake had happened to a free minister, there would be a rustling in the leaf forest and there would be hail demands for resignation," party leader Norbert Hofer criticized in a broadcast. Chancellor Sebastian Kurz (ÖVP) has lost control of his government.
     
  11. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Last edited by notimp, Aug 2, 2020
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  12. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    An actual Example,my Friend.:)
    (Names changed/removed because of "Data Pivacy"...:P)

    A Guy (Pensionist from Lower Austria) has an Romania Wife.
    She have a big Family in Romania.They made/make Holidays in Romania 3-4 Times for a couple of Weeks in the Year.
    (In the Meantime they also built a House there.)
    ..also last Month BEFORE the Border Restrictions raised again.....

    The drive over Hungary.
    No Problems to get into Romania.

    Last Sunday (26th July) he decided to go home (his Wife has to go to Work again) before on Monday the new Restrictions are "online".

    Guess what happens to the Border to Austria:
    - No Test (costs 190 €) but he can pass into Austria....
    with the following "Conditions":
    - He has to go strictly home in 14-Day Self Quarantine (without calling the Corona Hotline)...
    Not More.....

    He also asks "And the Bulgarians can also come into without Tests ?"
    Answer from the "Bordercontrolling Guy":
    "Yes,the can drive through Austria,but they have/can not so stop during drivethrough..."

    (Honestly I do not know,should I laugh or cry about this Story ?...)
     
    Last edited by alexander1970, Aug 2, 2020
  13. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Seems normal to me. (Transit might be ok..?)
    People have complained about those policies in recent past in germany (some people came back from vacation in spain and experienced exactly the same).

    Those policies are in place because of expected higher infection rates in those countries than in your home country.

    For the US its currently especially funny, because of the high infection rate, US citizens currently have problems almost entering every country:
    https://medium.com/indica/the-plague-states-of-america-53b20678a80e

    Not fun for the individual, but understandable (didnt look at rumanian infection numbers)?

    edit: Source in the last link is actually problematic - please doublecheck, because I dindt. ;)

    edit2: Is an issue in terms of "european identification" and stuff, so there is that angle as well.

    edit:3 Yes, here - rumenia has been moved onto the austrian travel warning list. https://www.bmeia.gv.at/reise-aufenthalt/reisewarnungen/
    edi4: And on a creativly named 'yellow list'
    https://www.wko.at/service/aussenwirtschaft/coronavirus-infos-rumaenien.html
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 2, 2020
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  14. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    Thank you for the Update,my Friend.:)



    Covid is in the "Background"....

    "They" have actual "other more important Worries"...

    ...the Commerzialbank Topic goes deeper and deeper into Politics....
    also into Sports - SV Mattersburg has stopped all "Activities".

    Also we are "distracted" by the Lebanon Explosion.
    and of Course "The Escape" from Juan Carlos...

    So,all is relatively "calm" at the Moment.:)


    Oh I forgot:

    Promiparty in Carinthia:
    https://kaernten.orf.at/stories/3061159/

    After a celebrating party in a Villach villa on Friday, 80 people are in quarantine. Among them is the Health Councilor Christian Pober (ÖVP), his test was negative. Five party guests were infected, including a restaurateur. Meanwhile, more and more tourism employees are voluntarily being tested.

    It was an illustrious crowd that met during a church garden week at a private garden party in a villa in Villach. In addition to Pober Health City Council, lawyers, ex-politicians, many entrepreneurs and doctors are also affected. The city of Villach emphasizes that action was taken on Wednesday afternoon "immediately after the cases became known". The 80 guests of the celebrity party - it took place last Friday - are in quarantine at home for a total of ten days.

    Own test station for those affected

    The Red Cross was requested, a separate test station was set up for all concerned on Thursday morning at 9:00 a.m., the magistrate said. In addition, the state press service - despite data protection - also published the name of the restaurant in Villacher Lederergasse, which belongs to the Villacher restaurateurs who tested positive. Because he too was a guest of the celebrity party and is infected.

    His restaurant in Villach, the “29er”, has been more than well attended in the last few days, almost “too good” for the authorities. Because the local events with live music at a "house church day" threatened to "proliferate" into the public space, the garden was cleared by the police. Now the restaurant remains closed, because the staff had to go into quarantine next to the host. From a purely legal point of view, the Villach restaurateur didn't do anything wrong. Because there were so many guests in front of his restaurant, the authority fears further infections and calls on everyone who has been there since July 31 to monitor their health and, if suspected, call the hotline 1450 or a health authority to contact.
    Quarantine: Additional officers assigned for control

    As for the 80 guests of the celebrity party in the Villach villa, where everything started, the magistrate hired additional officials to check compliance with the home quarantine. So far, five of the celebrities have been tested positive for the corona virus, 40 test results are still pending.
     
  15. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    No one wants it,all People were against it,now we have it - Camera Observation (of course,it is COVID Time actual)

    A new technology is used to analyze visitor flows at a market in Innsbruck. This is intended to make a contribution to Covid security. Several cameras record the currents. If the need arises, action can be taken quickly.

    The cameras were installed at the entrances to “Innsbruck Fischvergnügen”. The market stops at Innsbruck's market square from August 7th to 23rd. The event is also a challenge in terms of Covid security. In this case, they wanted to meet this challenge with a technology that was developed by the Innsbruck company Swarm Analytics GmbH.

    Test run for Christmas markets

    The responsible Vice Mayor Johannes Anzengruber (ÖVP) is convinced that "this technology helps the decision-makers and the organizers to receive valid data in order to be able to intervene quickly if the need arises". If the system proves itself, it could also be used in future at events and markets. The main focus here is on the Innsbruck Christmas markets.

    https://tirol.orf.at/stories/3061291/

    But of course,it if for our own Safety (our People are still too dumb,stupid and have no personal responsibility..)
    So it is,of course,nice to hear,that "someone" cares about our health.:)

    So,happy watching on Austria´s People.:rofl2:
    (I do not think,"bad" People can hack Security Cameras or that Kind,right ?)^_^
     
  16. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    A little Addition....

    Actual there are Infections all around....so nobody no longer really cares about it.
    The only really "scary" Fact is,it makes some People more Agressive than before....

    Reports from "violent Incidents" - during Shopping because of "No Mask wearing" Kids for Example..
    Returning Vacationers (from Croatia for Example) also did not really helps....

    People,who are (knowing or ignorant) infected uses Trains.....

    Birthday and Family Celebrations are again taking Place in larger Circles and are now common,as if nothing had ever happened ...

    So why continue to worry,the Austrian pretends nothing has happened ... as usual. icecream.gif
     
  17. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    This is what a potential second wave looks like.. ;)

    [​IMG]
    src: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/austria/

    Announced measures for Vienna (capital of Austria):
    https://derstandard.at/permalink/rc/1000198452/context?ref=live_red_content

    1. Routine testing before getting a stationary spot in hospitals and care facilities
    2. Stores and businesses: Are suggested to enact full usage of facemasks.
    3. Restaurants: Obligation to wear facemasks, for all personal and for guests until they are sitting at a table.
    4. Workplace: Social rooms are problematic and should only be used with distancing (and disinfectants) rules in place
    5. Closed events: Same as above, and the suggested cause of a high proportion of new infections

    Luckily active casecount for austria isnt outrageous yet, and hospitals also arent over capacity.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 11, 2020
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  18. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    Unfortunately they have actual no Idea what to do.....

    With the new "Covid Traffic light system" they are all "Overwhelmed"....
    Municipalities / mayors decide differently than the "recommendations"....

    I remember on Januar 2020 as our government says "We have everything under Control and this can not happen to us...."
    But our dear citizens have long since forgotten, since "consequential damage" of excessive mask wear has now been proven .....
     
  19. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Yes, we'll see how this pans out.. ;) Officials listening to different experts.. ;)

    Because the message is out, many people are expected to do what Viennas major is advising (usually higher trust numbers in regional politicians, than in national politicians), and that will give part of the desired effect. If its not enough 'desired effect' you know who to blame.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 11, 2020
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  20. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Pink Profilepagebackground for Christmas please.
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    Another Situation where we are going to be "offended".

    Yesterday:After the "Traffic Light" is Green (with Spots in Wien and Tirol on Orange/Yellow) on Monday the whole Country gets Restriction for Level Orange and Yellow..

    And the detailed "Explanations" for the different Warning Levels on the Homepage (Green/Orange/Yellow/Red) are "suddenly" gone...

    And today it was the Headline on Austrias Newspapers "Mask Obligation again"....


    Personal Note:
    Today my Wife and me went to Billa and our local Butcher through our Village...
    We have witnessed 4 Cases where People getting aggressive against each other because of.......nothing....

    We are steering in an very dangerous Situation now.....Frustration,Fear,Panic and Anger....Austria becomes slowly a "Human ticking Time Bomb" now...very dangerous....
     
    Last edited by alexander1970, Sep 15, 2020
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