More police brutality against peaceful protesters.

omgpwn666

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What the scouter say about the hypocrisy level?

So omgpwn. You believe that the police have absolute authority to exercise force in any situation, regardless of whether they have any jurisdiction, are acting under the law, or are violating American human rights. The American people should submit, you say.

And in the same post you tell us how opposed you are to slavery, a situation in which people are oppressed by those with power and authority, and who's basic human rights are ignored.

Man I love Americans. I'll bet you hate communism and socialism too.

Wrong. I said it depends on what they protest against for it to not be annoying, did not say it should not be illegal if it's for a good cause. Also, if they're there with riot shields force was probably needed. See what you tried to do though, very nice twist.
Erm, whether protesters are annoying or not was not part of my post. Whether they deserve to have grenades explode in their faces for doing something specifically allowed in both your constitution and bill of rights was. Did you know that you hyave the right (and perhaps responsibility) to start a militia and state a coup on the government if it goes against the constitution?

As for the bolded part, that's just nonsense. You have absolute faith in the judgement of the police force. If they did it, it was justified. Does that actually make sense to you are are you throwing down bull?


Edit:
>If you all want to comment some more (please do, I enjoy a good read) I will be back tomorrow to check them out. Stay fancy GBATemp. Good night.
>Reading this topic: omgpwn666
Yeah, again with the 'I'm going to bed' cop outs.

You have absolute faith in protesters to think they did nothing to force the cops to take action? XD Anyways, I like the cop out thing you keep saying since it makes you look really dumb. -.- I have to go to bed when it's 2:00 am, I get tired... Veho's picture straightened stuff out more about how Geneva Convention works so that you have to treat the inured, which is pretty interesting to me considering they're the ones who wound people. Anyways, I never once said the guy deserved it, I said protesters are annoying. The main problem here could be that the cop tossed in the second flash bang, UNLESS he thought those people were gonna loot his body... which would be very odd. I did not see a video of everything that happened since that was pretty much all that was recorded so I can't say for sure if the hit on the head was intentional. I just honestly doubt all of them cops are like, "stop those people, they're gonna help that guy!" So they then throw in a flash-bang. I learn something new every day, thanks Veho for that knowledge bomb! :)
 

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Why can't people write to their politicians? My God everything these days has to be done with a protest, people need to wise up a lot.

I commend the people who got checks from Obama by writing about their struggles. It's how we get results.
 

Midna

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What the scouter say about the hypocrisy level?

So omgpwn. You believe that the police have absolute authority to exercise force in any situation, regardless of whether they have any jurisdiction, are acting under the law, or are violating American human rights. The American people should submit, you say.

And in the same post you tell us how opposed you are to slavery, a situation in which people are oppressed by those with power and authority, and who's basic human rights are ignored.

Man I love Americans. I'll bet you hate communism and socialism too.

Wrong. I said it depends on what they protest against for it to not be annoying, did not say it should not be illegal if it's for a good cause. Also, if they're there with riot shields force was probably needed. See what you tried to do though, very nice twist.
Erm, whether protesters are annoying or not was not part of my post. Whether they deserve to have grenades explode in their faces for doing something specifically allowed in both your constitution and bill of rights was. Did you know that you hyave the right (and perhaps responsibility) to start a militia and state a coup on the government if it goes against the constitution?

As for the bolded part, that's just nonsense. You have absolute faith in the judgement of the police force. If they did it, it was justified. Does that actually make sense to you are are you throwing down bull?


Edit:
>If you all want to comment some more (please do, I enjoy a good read) I will be back tomorrow to check them out. Stay fancy GBATemp. Good night.
>Reading this topic: omgpwn666
Yeah, again with the 'I'm going to bed' cop outs.

You have absolute faith in protesters to think they did nothing to force the cops to take action? XD Anyways, I like the cop out thing you keep saying since it makes you look really dumb. -.- I have to go to bed when it's 2:00 am, I get tired... Veho's picture straightened stuff out more about how Geneva Convention works so that you have to treat the inured, which is pretty interesting to me considering they're the ones who wound people. Anyways, I never once said the guy deserved it, I said protesters are annoying. The main problem here could be that the cop tossed in the second flash bang, UNLESS he thought those people were gonna loot his body... which would be very odd. I did not see a video of everything that happened since that was pretty much all that was recorded so I can't say for sure if the hit on the head was intentional. I just honestly doubt all of them cops are like, "stop those people, they're gonna help that guy!" So they then throw in a flash-bang. I learn something new every day, thanks Veho for that knowledge bomb! :)
I'm not sure what to make of this wall of compromise and shifting positions.

One thing I can see is you defending your 'if they did it it was justified' post by making an identical accusation against the protesters. Attacking your own logic doesn't usually hold up that well.

And I wonder who looks dumb, me or the guy who says 'I'm going to bed' at the end of each post to avoid answering to retorts.

...

In having a responsible democratic government, a fair constitution and human rights guaranteed by the state, you are far luckier than most of the people on the planet.
But you're free to continue being apathetic and proclaiming your ignorance of the First Amendment.
 

omgpwn666

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What the scouter say about the hypocrisy level?

So omgpwn. You believe that the police have absolute authority to exercise force in any situation, regardless of whether they have any jurisdiction, are acting under the law, or are violating American human rights. The American people should submit, you say.

And in the same post you tell us how opposed you are to slavery, a situation in which people are oppressed by those with power and authority, and who's basic human rights are ignored.

Man I love Americans. I'll bet you hate communism and socialism too.

Wrong. I said it depends on what they protest against for it to not be annoying, did not say it should not be illegal if it's for a good cause. Also, if they're there with riot shields force was probably needed. See what you tried to do though, very nice twist.
Erm, whether protesters are annoying or not was not part of my post. Whether they deserve to have grenades explode in their faces for doing something specifically allowed in both your constitution and bill of rights was. Did you know that you hyave the right (and perhaps responsibility) to start a militia and state a coup on the government if it goes against the constitution?

As for the bolded part, that's just nonsense. You have absolute faith in the judgement of the police force. If they did it, it was justified. Does that actually make sense to you are are you throwing down bull?


Edit:
>If you all want to comment some more (please do, I enjoy a good read) I will be back tomorrow to check them out. Stay fancy GBATemp. Good night.
>Reading this topic: omgpwn666
Yeah, again with the 'I'm going to bed' cop outs.

You have absolute faith in protesters to think they did nothing to force the cops to take action? XD Anyways, I like the cop out thing you keep saying since it makes you look really dumb. -.- I have to go to bed when it's 2:00 am, I get tired... Veho's picture straightened stuff out more about how Geneva Convention works so that you have to treat the inured, which is pretty interesting to me considering they're the ones who wound people. Anyways, I never once said the guy deserved it, I said protesters are annoying. The main problem here could be that the cop tossed in the second flash bang, UNLESS he thought those people were gonna loot his body... which would be very odd. I did not see a video of everything that happened since that was pretty much all that was recorded so I can't say for sure if the hit on the head was intentional. I just honestly doubt all of them cops are like, "stop those people, they're gonna help that guy!" So they then throw in a flash-bang. I learn something new every day, thanks Veho for that knowledge bomb! :)
I'm not sure what to make of this wall of compromise and shifting positions.

One thing I can see is you defending your 'if they did it it was justified' post by making an identical accusation against the protesters. Attacking your own logic doesn't usually hold up that well.

And I wonder who looks dumb, me or the guy who says 'I'm going to bed' at the end of each post to avoid answering to retorts.

...

In having a responsible democratic government, a fair constitution and human rights guaranteed by the state, you are far luckier than most of the people on the planet.
But you're free to continue being apathetic and proclaiming your ignorance of the First Amendment.

Both times I said I am going to bed was about 2:00 AM, I do that so you don't play your childish games of, "oh, he did not comment back, I win!". I guess it's unreasonable to go to bed at 2:00AM...
And all these "shifting positions" are in your own head, you keep thinking that I said this guy deserves to get hurt. Never have I changed what I started with in this topic, protesters are annoying. Now as for who was in the wrong was the real argument, I said the protesters for going out of control (yes, I saw a video of the protest on my local news about an hour ago, did not look peaceful) now I say the cops are somewhat wrong because of what Veho said. You want to make a comment worth anyone's while? Be as mature about it as you can, and try to teach something, not troll someone. Sorry my comment was a little mean, but it seems you would not take what I said seriously unless I act angry. I see you have faith in humanity, lots of it. Good for you, lets try not to keep arguing with petty insults.
 

Midna

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I have not said this guy deserves to get hurt.
Protesters are annoying. He got hurt which is what happens when police show up and you don't leave.
Huh... You can twist your words if you want but those statements seem suspiciously contradictory.

I say the cops are somewhat wrong because of what Veho said.
I do find it amusing how you respect the Geneva convention but seem to have no respect for your own constitution or bill of rights.

Both times I said I am going to bed was about 2:00 AM, I do that so you don't play your childish games of, "oh, he did not comment back, I win!". I guess it's unreasonable to go to bed at 2:00AM...
The usual course of action when posting immediately before going to bed is to post and then go to bed, without telling everyone about how you're going to bed. This is a message board. Our posts are saved for extended periods of time. You're not expected to be constantly online and replying to everyone. You're entirely welcome to go to bed whenever you please and nobody will care... unless you announce it, in which case it makes you look like you're trying to avoid having to answer further posts.

You're also free to be angry, but I don't recommend it, this being the internet and all.
 

omgpwn666

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I have not said this guy deserves to get hurt.
Protesters are annoying. He got hurt which is what happens when police show up and you don't leave.
Huh... You can twist your words if you want but those statements seem suspiciously contradictory.

I say the cops are somewhat wrong because of what Veho said.
I do find it amusing how you respect the Geneva convention but seem to have no respect for your own constitution or bill of rights.

Both times I said I am going to bed was about 2:00 AM, I do that so you don't play your childish games of, "oh, he did not comment back, I win!". I guess it's unreasonable to go to bed at 2:00AM...
The usual course of action when posting immediately before going to bed is to post and then go to bed, without telling everyone about how you're going to bed. This is a message board. Our posts are saved for extended periods of time. You're not expected to be constantly online and replying to everyone. You're entirely welcome to go to bed whenever you please and nobody will care... unless you announce it, in which case it makes you look like you're trying to avoid having to answer further posts.

You're also free to be angry, but I don't recommend it, this being the internet and all.

You just proved my point. lol

Protesters are annoying. He got hurt which is what happens when police show up and you don't leave.
Right there you thought I was saying he deserved to get hurt. Told you it was all in your head. And as I said, I don't want childish games, but if you're not gonna play them games I guess I can go to bed without announcing it to you.

@ The bolded part, when did this happen??? I can't have freedom of speech and say I find protesters annoying? Nice one.

Again. All in your head buddy. Feel better now?
 

Midna

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If I proved your point you'd better outline how.
...And there you go, twisting your words like I said.

And as for the bolded part, if I really have to explain myself, you were in agreement with Veho's point about how the Geneva convention has terrorists treated better than our police force is treating us. Meanwhile every other post you make shits all over the first amendment.

...Though it has struck me that you are perhaps aware of your own rights, but are cynical enough to believe that they only apply on paper and will never be respected in reality, and that standing up for your rights is hopeless. That, while pathetic and submissive, would make your posts make more sense.

Again. All in your head buddy. Feel better now?
Lulz. You accuse me of child's games and trolling?
 
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omgpwn666

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If I proved your point you'd better outline how.
...And there you go, twisting your words like I said.

And as for the bolded part, if I really have to explain myself, you were in agreement with Veho's point about how the Geneva convention has terrorists treated better than our police force is treating us. Meanwhile every other post you make shits all over the first amendment.

...Though it has struck me that you are perhaps aware of your own rights, but are cynical enough to believe that they only apply on paper and will never be respected in reality, and that standing up for your rights is hopeless. That, while pathetic and submissive, would make your posts make more sense.

Again. All in your head buddy. Feel better now?
Lulz. You accuse me of child's games and trolling?
Oh god, calling you buddy and asking if you feel better is trolling? I just want us to be buds when this is all aside.
And this is how you proved my point, saying
Protesters are annoying. He got hurt which is what happens when police show up and you don't leave.
is like saying
He got squashed which is what happens when you jump off a building.
, just a note of common sense. Another thing, part of the amendments is that I can talk shit about it. Rules are around that I am fond of, some I am not fond of. That's life, it's always like that. I don't like drunk drivers, but I like free music. ;) See what I am saying? I still think protesters are annoying, but not meant to be hurt or killed... unless they're protesting for child sex trafficking. This is life, it's good at some points, bad at others.
 

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1. Police sees a man on the ground.
2. Police sees an angry mob approaching the man who is most likely unable to fend for himself. They cannot breach their own barricade, they cannot pull the man out anyways.
3. Police throws a non-lethal gas/smoke grenade, the mob disbands, the man is minorly wounded.
4. End of story.
 

MEGAMANTROTSKY

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1. Police sees a man on the ground.
Correct. A police projectile (it is unclear whether it was a rubber bullet or a tear gas canister) that struck him in the head was the reason why he was on the ground. They would have to see him, considering they put him there.
2. Police sees an angry mob approaching the man who is most likely unable to fend for himself. They cannot breach their own barricade, they cannot pull the man out anyways.
It is entirely unbelievable that that the protestors would wish to harm a member of their own cause, especially after the police were the culprits. The so-called "angry mob" approached him because he was struck on the head by a police projectile. They were seeking to carry him away for medical attention. There are several videos that document this fact.
3. Police throws a non-lethal gas/smoke grenade, the mob disbands, the man is minorly wounded.
It was actually a flash grenade, and while it is classified as non-lethal, it can cause permanent damage to the eyes and ears of the afflicted. Depending of the proximity of the target, it can actually cause death. And Scott Olson was not just "minorly" wounded. The force of that projectile caused a skull fracture, which required brain surgery to fix. Fortunately, he has since been listed as stable.
4. End of story.
Don't be naive. The story of what had happened that night is only beginning to be revealed.
 

Foxi4

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I'm sorry Mega, but I don't agree with you in the slightest. In the event of complete chaos, Police is allowed to deal with a certain situation with extreme prejudice, they're supposed to contain the agressive protesters within the smallest area possible regardless of whether or not it will cause minor physical harm to the protesters. They have no idea whether the mob's intention is to take care of the wounded or to breach the containment area, thus they repel them from the barriers with all means at their disposal, be it gas grenades, flashbangs or rubber bullets - simply to prevent spreading the chaos. It was not a typical flashbang - where it a flashbang, the mob would disperse in a less orderly fashion and they wouldn't be able to see where they're going at all. This was simply a very low-explosive "scare" grenade. To further prove the point, the flash was barely visible on the recording. Were it a flashbomb, we'd have a more prolonged effect. I'd know, I'm a conniseur of weaponry.
 

Hells Malice

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^ You're thinking more riot control than protester control (way, way different).

MEGA basically beat the shit out of your argument already. The officer that used that grenade, I don't care what it was unless it was a ragnaid, knew damn well he wasn't throwing it into a group of zombies in hopes of saving his life. The officer saw them attempting to aid a guy who just about got killed by a non-lethal weapon, and tried to help him.

Like I said way before, protesters are annoying...but the police do some ridiculous things sometimes.
 

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I'm not saying that the action was perfectly reasonable - the police is always in the minority here and they are working under extreme stress. The recent riots are something new to them, something they were not prepared for during their training and they're only trying to perform their duties to the fullest, sometimes making certain mistakes.

Both sides are at fault - were the protests organized like they're supposed to, with sufficient permits and whatnot, the Police wouldn't even have to be there. The instant someone burns the first tire and throws the first stone, things start to get dirty. I don't think Mega supplied me with any reasonable counter-arguments (in my opinion), he simply has a different take on the matter.

I like it how everybody screams about "Police brutality" but nobody seems to notice looting, attacking Police officers, throwing stones and home-made explosives at them etc. etc. - you don't seem to see THAT on Youtube, even though it's common place on such protests. Please, do entertain me with more jibberish if you wish to do so.
 

dickfour

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peaceful protests is a lie. These protesters were violent in Oakland. They marched on police, surrounded them in some cases like an angry mob and threw rocks and bottles at their heads and paint. The police were forced into a situation where they had to use violence and this was part of the protesters propaganda plan they knew people would be injured and that they would latter use those images for propaganda. To them peace is just a tactic just as violence is a tactic just as being violent while claiming to be peaceful. I'm sure the3 occupy Oakland media team war gamed this scenario before hand. They needed violence to occur to gin up flagging support. Now for the proof. Protester admits to throwing rocks and bottles at police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHlHiNEZ1wA
 

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This is exactly what I'm talking about: people are easily convinced to point fingers at their authorities even without knowing the context of a given situation simply because we as humans generally don't *like* authorities. Everybody likes to be their own master, live by their own set of rules, hence the natural antagonism towards the members of the Police.

By cutting and pasting certain events together, the media and/or protest groups can easily convey an untrue message of what happened and why to influence the majority that either side is guilty, wheras to know the truth you need to know the whole story.

If this particular protest was agressive, use of force for means of prevention was completely justified.
 
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MEGAMANTROTSKY

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Very well. Perhaps there was violence on both sides. But here comes the hardest part, since judging one side or another simply on the use of violence is inadequate, though to a degree necessary. In short: Who should we side with? Here, it is necessary to look at the big picture, as opposed to this one night in Oakland. The Occupy Wall Street movement and their siblings across the US are a product of the financial crisis that culminated in the bailout of US corporations using public funds. The crisis itself was caused by the criminal greed of the American ruling class. But after the crisis "subsided", almost nobody was held to account besides scapegoats like Bernie Madoff. Obama, despite being elected as a liberal "antiwar" candidate, has largely continued Bush's policy of imperialist aggression and shielding the bourgeoisie's financial criminality. The US state has helped the bourgeoisie make more money than ever thanks to these policies. And by keeping unemployment low, they create the conditions for the the working population at large to accept massive cuts to both their pay, pensions, and benefits. This rampant corruption is bound to raise the public's ire. The Wall Street protests, inspired by the revolution in Egypt, were barely planned at all in the initial stages. They were at first thought to be a failure (I believed this as well) since at first did not reach their intended target number of protesters. To kill the movement in its cradle, the US media instituted a week-long blackout. But it failed, as they soon quickly grew. Movements wishing to follow both their example have sprouted in numerous US cities to protest the rapacious greed of the capitalist class. In sum, the Occupy movements represent the mass of the disenfranchised. They must be supported unconditionally, despite their political weaknesses.

The police, on the other hand, are the hired thugs of the bourgeoisie who enforce the structure of class society under a veneer of "legality". After all, the US constitution does not "legally" obligate them to protect anybody, save their employers and masters. They are an appendage of the very state that refuses to prosecute the crimes of the bourgeoisie. They represent the interests of capitalism and private property; their overall historical role can be no other. That is their only "duty". They are thoroughly racist, corrupt, and reactionary. They are are above the law especially in matters of police brutality, since attempts by state governments to prosecute them usually fail. In New York and Boston the police have attacked protesters with mace and worse and have received absolutely no punishment, or a caricature of one. And this was against peaceful protesters, by and large; they were using military tactics against civilians. The opposition to the protestors have implied that they are justified in "keeping the peace" and brutally repressing them, but this argument casually leaves out the fact that the eruption of these protests and their constant growth proves that there was no "peace" at all before; the class conflict hidden until these protests brought them into the open.

For the sake of keeping this shorter, the police and the protesters must be judged by the class interests they represent. There can be no question of who actually needs to be contained. Down with the police; they deserve no pity for protecting the robber barons of capitalism.

Edit: There might be responses to what I have said, but I won't be able to answer them, since my weekend is pretty busy. I have to leave this topic.
 

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I hope this guy makes a full recovery. From what I have heard he is now conscious but has trouble speaking.
 

Schizoanalysis

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Police protect the property of the wealthy, and keep the hegemony in power.


Unless you are enamoured with power, why would you side with the police?
 
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