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Minneapolis to Abolish the Police

Lumstar

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In practical terms, the country has been a police state ever since they were granted the authority to enforce public school attendance. The majority of kids can't leave campus or drop out by their own will without the police getting involved.
 

Xzi

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All unions are like that. Bust all unions.
Only one union has a monopoly on state-sanctioned violence, it's just unfortunate that it's pretty much the largest union still operating in the United States. Nobody is having issues with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers executing no-knock warrants and killing people in their sleep. Unions are the only reason we don't still work seven days a week and put our children on assembly lines.
 
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SG854

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It might just be me, but when I think of reform, I think of keeping the existing police/department and updating policies/require new training, which may be difficult if the police union there pushes back. But my understanding of what they want to do is create a new smaller police department, with less responsibilities, from the ground up where the police union has little to no say in any new policies they make, and any cops that want to keep their jobs have to reapply for them at the new department. Not saying whether that is good or bad, just what I understand their plan is and so why I think they aren't calling it reform.
Talking about Unions in general the protections Unions give is why Conservatives are against unions. They offer protections and makes it harder to fire people.

Unions were created to protect disenfranchised people so that they won't get unessecarily fired for reasons like color of their skin or others reasons similar to this. But Unions have been hijacked to offer protection for criminal behavior. Like protecting police abuse. Its the same reason conservatives want to dismantle the teachers union because it offers protections against pedophiles. The process to get a pedophile teacher fired is extremely hard and very expensive, that it'll take years and millions of dollars before they get fired.

Look at any other union besides Teachers Union and Police Union and they'll have their negatives conservatives don't like.

Democrats see unions as good for the reasons I stated above, it protects disenfranchised people, it gives the working class bargaining power to not be screwed over for less pay. While they see conservatives that are trying to dismantle unions as a sneaky way to let big businesses screw over they little guy, strip them of their protection.

Really we need a middle ground between the Conservative and the Democrat view. But nowadays choosing the middle ground is seen as too afraid to choose aside for some reason, and gets alot of criticism. Not being a mindless drone that goes far to one side is seen as bad. There's alot of people that don't like middle ground people.

A middle ground would be have unions so that Black Cops won't get unnecessarily fired for being black. But don't offer protection to people that abuse the system. The problem with writing these laws is loopholes which alot of people take advantage of. Making a sealed tight law that people can't abuse is extremely hard and its why people abuse the system all the time.
 
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Whats the argument brought forward against unions here? I'm asking, because, I've seen 'high potentials' getting their kicks from building 'Uber based' business models (in their dreams and aspirations, because they can be hooked by the worst byline of economic trendscouting from five years ago), derived from indian (as in the country) food delivery models, while praising, that they could outsource their scientific studies (when it came to getting people to fill them out) to Amazon mechanical turk, while dancing in a circle high fiveing each other how wonder full this new world, would be - for them - because, as far as I could tell, everything they brought to the table was, to promote some database...

Same people talking hours on end about how wonderfully 'freeing' this entire experience would be for the worker, who now didnt have to hold a job on 'general' job in their lives anymore, while of course not getting pension pay.

They then invited spokespeople from one of the bigger unions in germany, and all they could talk about was, how they see it as a great chance for them, because they now could convince a bunch of gigworkers to unionize - praise the new future.

If anyone has difficulties, imagining why unions are so entirely against progress sometimes (especially when they have formed in state sectors), ask again.

In short, because said high potentials come from environments, where they read, and dont experience, and have been driven to be highly competitive, for any chance of the leftovers on the economic table, they are currently creating monsters, selling you out from underneath every safetynet that ever existed. And believing in each others pitches, that they are doing the people around them a solid.

They live in worlds of metrics, only connected to their employees via a smartphone layer, and are talking about freeing humanity. While making sure, no unions can ever be established, by making you sign, that you are an independent entrepreneur in the food delivery, or taking surveys businesses.

And Amazon an google profit.

So if - especially currently, you want to take away the right for people to unionize -- there are worthier causes.

And under those lights, working people look like starch conservatives, so - lesson - everything is relative.
 
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Heres some more information. Its called Passing The Trash. Teachers unions protects and allows sexual predators to teach kids. Teacher Predators are really hard to fire.
There are some wires you must have crossed. Teachers are hard to fire, because they have to play the role of a 'respectability person' in their community of small kids, and every angered parent, and child acting out in youth are hellbent to undercut their authority. If they were easy to fire, no one would be left on the job. One exception, abusive behavior. So if they are soliciting their position of respect for anything other than teaching - they are, and should be, out within two seconds. Disciplinary hearings and everything.

The state comes down on them like a mofo.

Issue - guilt trips on childrens minds, can still be very effective - so it often takes years... Issue also, anything that even formerly had the touch of 'private education' - like every business, and like the church, btw - looks at public image first.

Thats before watching your video, which I'll do now.

But the moment you have to cull voices with 'the state isnt able to protect you from child predators' - and list unions as a cause, I more or less think that you are cray, cray.

edit: @SG854 Just watched the clips, and as imagined, none of it is even remotely the issue you are painting.
What the clip says is, that school administrators have been caught often, drafting up confidentiality agreements, and helping the person that was caught exhibiting such a behavior, to transfer to another school district, even 'greasing the wheel', so they'd have the problem off their hands in the most easy way imaginable.

Those are individual administrative decisions, designed not to fall back onto the school administrator, that are not intended by the law, or how the next step (disciplinary commission) is supposed to look like, and they are legal, because a formal complaint is never made. Its not how this is supposed to work like - it is a loophole. And what people in the clip are morally arguing for, is to hold school administrators responsible, even if they sign clauses - that prevent them from speaking. Again, so their behavior, doesnt fall back on them later on, and they get rid of that predator easier.

How on effing earth, you can construct out of that a case, for why unions are bad, I dont know. If your mind jumps from unions straight to child predators, I'd say, that you are mainly emotionally driven, to a point, where you cant even understand news reporting anymore, because you are in such a personal perceived feeling of grief, directed at the person or the thing you have designated to be responsible for 'the evil' - that its hard to ever arguue with you over anything, where you'd not feel the need to win, because your feelings were so deep.

At one point, ideally, you'd put some of the feelings aside, and actually look at a story, or the reporting as well, and dont just get perceptually stuck at mood bgm cues, and girls drawing stickfigures of where the teacher touched them - then bringing this emotional package into any discussion at random.

Your emotions on this are right. But thats about the only thing thats right here.


edit: One correction, the report then even details one case, where the school administration did file a report, but the national schools board - because of lack of proof - banned them from teaching in state, and gave out a neutral recommendation, not stating the alleged incident.

The proper thing to do would have been to actually clear this up in a criminal investigation. And if that took place, and 'grooming' behavior couldnt be sufficiently proven - that is rotten, but what followed, still the law.

There were even attempts made on the federal level to prevent that from happening (simply allowing those teachers to work in another state), but most states havent integrated that legislation into their laws yet.

Still no unions anywhere to be seen.
 
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Viri

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Unions aren't so bad in some cases. My dad got into contact with someone on his work force who tested positive for Cov19. He had to stay home for 2 weeks, and he got paid 3 weeks pay. Then his hours got reduced by 2 hours for a month or so, and he still got paid the full 8 hours, because of his union. His union also fought to keep their medical in tact last year, and raised their pay by 2 dollars an hour.
 
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SG854

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There are some wires you must have crossed. Teachers are hard to fire, because they have to play the role of a 'respectability person' in their community of small kids, and every angered parent, and child acting out in youth are hellbent to undercut their authority. If they were easy to fire, no one would be left on the job. One exception, abusive behavior. So if they are soliciting their position of respect for anything other than teaching - they are, and should be, out within two seconds. Disciplinary hearings and everything.

The state comes down on them like a mofo.

Issue - guilt trips on childrens minds, can still be very effective - so it often takes years... Issue also, anything that even formerly had the touch of 'private education' - like every business, and like the church, btw - looks at public image first.

Thats before watching your video, which I'll do now.

But the moment you have to cull voices with 'the state isnt able to protect you from child predators' - and list unions as a cause, I more or less think that you are cray, cray.

edit: @SG854 Just watched the clips, and as imagined, none of it is even remotely the issue you are painting.
What the clip says is, that school administrators have been caught often, drafting up confidentiality agreements, and helping the person that was caught exhibiting such a behavior, to transfer to another school district, even 'greasing the wheel', so they'd have the problem off their hands in the most easy way imaginable.

Those are individual administrative decisions, designed not to fall back onto the school administrator, that are not intended by the law, or how the next step (disciplinary commission) is supposed to look like, and they are legal, because a formal complaint is never made. Its not how this is supposed to work like - it is a loophole. And what people in the clip are morally arguing for, is to hold school administrators responsible, even if they sign clauses - that prevent them from speaking. Again, so their behavior, doesnt fall back on them later on, and they get rid of that predator easier.

How on effing earth, you can construct out of that a case, for why unions are bad, I dont know. If your mind jumps from unions straight to child predators, I'd say, that you are mainly emotionally driven, to a point, where you cant even understand news reporting anymore, because you are in such a personal perceived feeling of grief, directed at the person or the thing you have designated to be responsible for 'the evil' - that its hard to ever arguue with you over anything, where you'd not feel the need to win, because your feelings were so deep.

At one point, ideally, you'd put some of the feelings aside, and actually look at a story, or the reporting as well, and dont just get perceptually stuck at mood bgm cues, and girls drawing stickfigures of where the teacher touched them - then bringing this emotional package into any discussion at random.

Your emotions on this are right. But thats about the only thing thats right here.


edit: One correction, the report then even details one case, where the school administration did file a report, but the national schools board - because of lack of proof - banned them from teaching in state, and gave out a neutral recommendation, not stating the alleged incident.

The proper thing to do would have been to actually clear this up in a criminal investigation. And if that took place, and 'grooming' behavior couldnt be sufficiently proven - that is rotten, but what followed, still the law.

There were even attempts made on the federal level to prevent that from happening (simply allowing those teachers to work in another state), but most states havent integrated that legislation into their laws yet.

Still no unions anywhere to be seen.
There's alot of information you can find on this if you dive deep into it.

It was parodied on the Simpsons.
It makes the Unions happy.



Another name for it is Dance of the Lemons. After two years teachers get tenure, Union Contracts makes it very difficult to fire bad teachers.
 
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SG854

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@notimp

There was a teacher that threw a kid in a trash can, started kicking it and threatened to cut the private parts off the kid. It cost the school 100 thouasnd dollars to get rid of her, and she still was able to get teaching job somewhere else.

It doesn't matter if the teacher is abusive or is a pedophile the teachers union will back them.

It costs thousands of dollars and many years of fighting the Union to get rid of a teacher, so most school districts don't even bother. That's why Dance of the Lemons is a thing. Its easier just to throw a teacher to another school then to fight the union and fire them.

https://www.hoover.org/research/dance-lemons



Sometimes problem teachers get thrown into rubber rooms.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/where-do-problem-teachers-go-the-rubber-room/1946484/?amp



Passing the trash 2018.
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...he-trash-policies-the-dept-of-ed-isn-t-tracki

Its been going on since the 90's, and before the 90's, and is still a problem today.
 
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So I found the statistics.
FBIMG1592010762549.jpg
 

notimp

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Another name for it is Dance of the Lemons. After two years teachers get tenure, Union Contracts makes it very difficult to fire bad teachers.
Yes, and why I've tried to sketch out.You are in a job, where at least in 3x5 (estimation ;) ) parents every year hate you, and you have to bring children to do something they dont particularly like either and that is to study and show some sort of responsibility for their behavior.

Usually what happens, if there are complaints is, that teachers get reevaluated by outside commissions, and then moved out of their job for a while, if need be.

The example you saw 'on the Simpsons' (selfharming behavior), would probably mean, that that person has to undergo psychological treatment - but yes, isnt fired on the spot. (Also, because there is a hightened risk of a breakdown on that job, and the correct thing to do is, not to just kick them out of their jobs and tell them to get a new one, in that situation.)

Thats contrary to how the system deals with anyone who abused their 'position of power' to solicit anything from minors. They are positively gone (barred from teaching in a state - sadly, in the US, because its so easy to move from state to state and get accredited there, new problems arise from that, that state legislator hasnt fixed yet (in the majority of states) even though the federal level (legislature) tried to fix it already. (See the video you posted.)

And even in the Simpsons clip, nothing there (if I'm not entirely mistaken) has to do anything with unions. You don't get a tenure, because of unions.

edit: The second video you posted is just propaganda, as far as I know it. (They are bad teachers, everybody knows it, their peers know it, and so they get exchanged, because they cant be fired....)

Also, the first article that surfaces, when you search for tenure union, is an article that tries to debunk the myth that you are spreading: http://lrcft.org/confronting-the-myths-about-tenure-and-teachers-unions/

Maybe the truth for why the american school system has problems isnt as simple as 'the bad teachers, where everyone knows they are bad, can't be fired'.

edit:
Second, what about teachers unions and those union contracts? Do tenure and union contracts shield bad teachers and undermine education?

It is a myth that tenure means lifetime employment and makes it impossible to fire bad workers. What tenure does is require an employer to have cause to fire an employee. Union contracts require the use of a fair process to determine whether there is cause to fire an employee. In other words, schools can already fire teachers if they have good cause – so all getting rid of tenure would do is let schools fire teachers when they do not have good cause to fire them. It’s hard to see how firing good teachers would improve our schools.
That seems to indicate, that tenure came into existence, because of union action.

But it is very understandable, that they dont want let that protection go easily.

Their aim still is not to protect child predators. (Thats for sure.) And not even bad teachers, although I'm sure a few more could cling to their jobs because of it. There is still ample reason not to take that protection away, though.

Again, the same thing exists in my country (europe, different legal tradition), probably for a reason.

edit:
Many accuse teachers’ unions of protecting bad teachers. But all teachers unions do is provide fair representation to ensure that an accurate decision is made before taking away a worker’s job. In fact, the law says that providing fair representation is a duty a union owes to its members.

It is the employer’s job to prove that an employee deserves to be fired – not the union’s. If bad teachers are kept on, the real story is management’s failure to make its case.
So, as thought, even the part that "this is all because of a 'union work contract'" is a lie. (Its because of law.)


edit: Also, if you, or your loved ones are in a situation where you are molested, please try to go through inside and outside (NGOs) channels. As SG854 has shown, inside feedback loops can break because of managerial neglect. The law and the process is still on your side. That teacher usually is positively gone. Union or not.

If not, its a huge mess up, and not a normal or 'systemic' issue. (If an administrator does the 'lemon dance' with child molesters, without reporting the incident, they have morally and executively failed in their job.)
 
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SG854

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Yes, and why I've tried to sketch out.You are in a job, where at least in 3x5 (estimation ;) ) parents every year hate you, and you have to bring children to do something they dont particularly like either and that is to study and show some sort of responsibility for their behavior.

Usually what happens, if there are complaints is, that teachers get reevaluated by outside commissions, and then moved out of their job for a while, if need be.

The example you saw 'on the Simpsons' (selfharming behavior), would probably mean, that that person has to undergo psychological treatment - but yes, isnt fired on the spot. (Also, because there is a hightened risk of a breakdown on that job, and the correct thing to do is, not to just kick them out of their jobs and tell them to get a new one, in that situation.)

Thats contrary to how the system deals with anyone who abused their 'position of power' to solicit anything from minors. They are positively gone (barred from teaching in a state - sadly, in the US, because its so easy to move from state to state and get accredited there, new problems arise from that, that state legislator hasnt fixed yet (in the majority of states) even though the federal level (legislature) tried to fix it already. (See the video you posted.)

And even in the Simpsons clip, nothing there (if I'm not entirely mistaken) has to do anything with unions. You don't get a tenure, because of unions.

edit: The second video you posted is just propaganda, as far as I know it. (They are bad teachers, everybody knows it, their peers know it, and so they get exchanged, because they cant be fired....)

Also, the first article that surfaces, when you search for tenure union, is an article that tries to debunk the myth that you are spreading: http://lrcft.org/confronting-the-myths-about-tenure-and-teachers-unions/

Maybe the truth for why the american school system has problems isnt as simple as 'the bad teachers, where everyone knows they are bad, can't be fired'.

edit:

That seems to indicate, that tenure came into existence, because of union action.

But it is very understandable, that they dont want let that protection go easily.

Their aim still is not to protect child predators. (Thats for sure.) And not even bad teachers, although I'm sure a few more could cling to their jobs because of it. There is still ample reason not to take that protection away, though.

Again, the same thing exists in my country (europe, different legal tradition), probably for a reason.

edit:

So, as thought, even the part that "this is all because of a 'union work contract'" is a lie. (Its because of law.)


edit: Also, if you, or your loved ones are in a situation where you are molested, please try to go through inside and outside (NGOs) channels. As SG854 has shown, inside feedback loops can break because of managerial neglect. The law and the process is still on your side. That teacher usually is positively gone. Union or not.

If not, its a huge mess up, and not a normal or 'systemic' issue. (If an administrator does the 'lemon dance' with child molesters, without reporting the incident, they have morally and executively failed in their job.)
The article you linked doesn't really tackle the issue.

It states the poverty is a problem, but the article from the Hoover Institute says that they had to spend $70,000 dollars to get rid of a Math teacher that didn't know basic algebra. The poverty thing the article brought up, and saying its not bad teachers but poverty that is the issue, doesn't tackle the issue that there is bad teachers and its very hard to get rid of those bad teachers. It's shifting the attention away from the actual problem.

And when it does bring up that good teachers want to give bad teachers a second chance, if they are spending $70,000 dollars they are obviously not wanting to give that bad teacher a second chance and want to get rid of them. So it still doesn't get to the core that Unions make it hard to get rid of those teachers.

And the other point, the article seems to be an opinion piece written by an anonymous person. While the hoover Institute article has quotes from lawyers that handle these cases and knows exactly how the legal system works, and are the ones that know how hard it is to fight the Unions, because they are the ones fighting the Unions when these lawyers take on these cases. I trust a lawyer more then I trust an anonymous person who probably doesn't take on these legal cases fighting the teachers union like a lawyer does.
 
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notimp

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It states the poverty is a problem, but the article from the Hoover Institute says that they had to spend $70,000 dollars to get rid of a Math teacher that didn't know basic algebra. The poverty thing the article brought up, and saying its not bad teachers but poverty that is the issue, doesn't tackle the issue that there is bad teachers and its very hard to get rid of those bad teachers.
I know, thats fair.

They try to open up the wider field, for why people are so into the 'the issue is, that bad teachers can't get fired' talking point, and why that isnt the case from their point of view. Has nothing to do directly with our extended 'is child molester lemon dance systemic?' discussion.

But then it has paragraphs in there, that lay out the specific thinking behind tenure, and union action on behalf of teachers (representation). ('You cant fire them' is wrong, 'union contract' is wrong, ...)

If your point is, that you have to get rid of tenure, and union representation, because of 'child molestors being guarded by the system' I still think that you are absolutely wrong and out of line.

One additional point - the 'the issue is that teachers cant be fired' meme is just as active (mostly on the conservative side, that isnt conservative teachers unions.. ;) ) in my country in europe as well. Its just every parents gut reaction. :)

I also have to say, why I'm actually somewhat interested in that stuff, and that is, that one of my parents had been a teacher, and I know their stories, and teacher conferences, the parent/teacher conferences and even those evaluation committes, at least second hand. So if anyone tells me, you have to be able to fire teachers more easily in general, "to stop child molesting", I'm poised to have a different opinion. :)

Thats just an easy excuse. Nothing in the current system is set up to let child molesters go free. If any administrator uses their leeway to just move such a person to another school, without reporting them, and while setting up confidentiality agreements, so they can't be held accountable for not speaking out about it, its personal fault, and personal fault all the way. If their reasoning is, that 'they didn't want to have to deal with unions', thats a lame excuse, and nothing more.

Lemon dance for less problematic cases, is probably a beneficial thing for both sides (schools and the teachers), as they get 'try again' opportunities at another school. That explicitly excludes child molestors or anyone that has abused their position of power towards minors.

And also - yes, in the end if a teacher is truly bad, and can cling on, because they play 'it will be so much work for you principal' cards right, thats an unintended outcome. But making teachers more easy to fire in general isnt the solution ('bad apples' theory on my part). And in cases like child molesting they absolutely arent protected by tenure, or unions.
 
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I guess we're all in agreement that the police alone isn't good enough to handle all criminals? We all support the second amendment now, right?
 
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