Joe Biden is now officially the 46th President of the United States of America

[smf]

I find the idea that there is some society wide push to keep people down by dint of skin colour in the present US to be a laughable one.

Its more subtle now, but there is still work to be done.

 

[Plasmaster09]

Its more subtle now, but there is still work to be done.

the irony is that there's less a societal push to maintain the inequality and a societal apathy, ignorance and adamant refusal to FIX the inequality perpetrated by the few that deliberately create it as well as all the leftover inequality and bigotry from the past
read: people that willfully ignore the existence of white privilege (like @FAST6191 over here) are a large chunk of the problem, as their continued denial of the issue at fault allows it to persist

 

[FAST6191]

Its more subtle now, but there is still work to be done.

There is always work to be done.

However for it to be the last great struggle of the US, see whatever troubles it has and conclude "because racism", or see black friends go over there to live or holiday and say they have to play it differently to running around in the UK or much of Europe or Canada or Australia or New Zealand... wherein it is equally little more than a historical quirk. All that is a far bigger ask or leap of logic, take it on faith... type deal.

Again if the US has a problem is it not a racism one; it is a poverty one. Focus on solving poverty and you solve far more issues than imagining some moustache twirling politico or CEO or knuckle dragger with some interesting tattoos and ideas on how the world works and going after that.

If I try to apply "because racism" to problems it serves rather poorly as a predictor, seldom gets spat out as a factor during a regression analysis and otherwise ignores vast swathes of the population facing similar dubious living conditions and life outcomes, sometimes even those with the apparently "easy mode" trait of having white skin.

If irony is to be noted I would say it is those would be ones that seek to push the world forward allow themselves to be lulled into a perpetual state of outrage with no real direction (nor likely to be one, which is rather useful as you can defeat problems you get get to -- see also war on terror and arguments against that as a notion) over imagined racism by hidden cabals and paramilitaries in the shadows rather than going after the real problems and generally improving the lot in life of [insert skin colour] along the way if it is a concern. Doing so will however see someone's bank balance end up a few fractions of a percent lower and one can not cease the pursuit and worship of the almighty dollar.

 

[Plasmaster09]

There is always work to be done.

However for it to be the last great struggle of the US, see whatever troubles it has and conclude "because racism", or see black friends go over there to live or holiday and say they have to play it differently to running around in the UK or much of Europe or Canada or Australia or New Zealand... wherein it is equally little more than a historical quirk. All that is a far bigger ask or leap of logic, take it on faith... type deal.

Again if the US has a problem is it not a racism one; it is a poverty one. Focus on solving poverty and you solve far more issues than imagining some moustache twirling politico or CEO or knuckle dragger with some interesting tattoos and ideas on how the world works and going after that.

If I try to apply "because racism" to problems it serves rather poorly as a predictor, seldom gets spat out as a factor during a regression analysis and otherwise ignores vast swathes of the population facing similar dubious living conditions and life outcomes, sometimes even those with the apparently "easy mode" trait of having white skin.

If irony is to be noted I would say it is those would be ones that seek to push the world forward allow themselves to be lulled into a perpetual state of outrage with no real direction (nor likely to be one, which is rather useful as you can defeat problems you get get to -- see also war on terror and arguments against that as a notion) over imagined racism by hidden cabals and paramilitaries in the shadows rather than going after the real problems and generally improving the lot in life of [insert skin colour] along the way if it is a concern. Doing so will however see someone's bank balance end up a few fractions of a percent lower and one can not cease the pursuit and worship of the almighty dollar.

dude
you don't understand
we get it, not all problems trace back to racism
that's kind of obvious by default
but you refuse to admit that ANY of the US's significant problems do, which is in itself part of one of said problems
systemic racism and white privilege still exist, and their deniers function as secondary spreaders that maintain them in perpetuity
admit it, accept it and stop trying to dodge things by throwing straw-men at us

 

[Lacius]

There is always work to be done.

However for it to be the last great struggle of the US, see whatever troubles it has and conclude "because racism", or see black friends go over there to live or holiday and say they have to play it differently to running around in the UK or much of Europe or Canada or Australia or New Zealand... wherein it is equally little more than a historical quirk. All that is a far bigger ask or leap of logic, take it on faith... type deal.

Again if the US has a problem is it not a racism one; it is a poverty one. Focus on solving poverty and you solve far more issues than imagining some moustache twirling politico or CEO or knuckle dragger with some interesting tattoos and ideas on how the world works and going after that.

If I try to apply "because racism" to problems it serves rather poorly as a predictor, seldom gets spat out as a factor during a regression analysis and otherwise ignores vast swathes of the population facing similar dubious living conditions and life outcomes, sometimes even those with the apparently "easy mode" trait of having white skin.

If irony is to be noted I would say it is those would be ones that seek to push the world forward allow themselves to be lulled into a perpetual state of outrage with no real direction (nor likely to be one, which is rather useful as you can defeat problems you get get to -- see also war on terror and arguments against that as a notion) over imagined racism by hidden cabals and paramilitaries in the shadows rather than going after the real problems and generally improving the lot in life of [insert skin colour] along the way if it is a concern. Doing so will however see someone's bank balance end up a few fractions of a percent lower and one can not cease the pursuit and worship of the almighty dollar.

Lol at the disingenuous argument that it's either "it's all racism" or "there's no racism." Grow up.

 

[FAST6191]

Lol at the disingenuous argument that it's either "it's all racism" or "there's no racism." Grow up.

I am not sure where people are getting that from. I was not trying to present a binary or a strawman.

I just find the notion that racism is a clear and present danger and threat to equality in the US, and its dire need for eradication and always considering effects from that angle to a joke, a misdirection, a red herring on the path to actually making things better.
I am sure there are three or four racists out there somewhere. They however have no power and can be ignored just like you can ignore a flock of crows gobbling a crop the other side of the country somewhere can be ignored. I am sure someone's grandad met some real arseholes (or would be considered as such today), note the story and I will be happy to hear it.

The relentless desire to frame it that way, create the original sin of privilege, create such asinine constructions as must see the struggle (as opposed to the content of the character thing), colourism, the whole "black people can't be racist" (whether any here think it a useful construction or utter farce is largely irrelevant as it does seem to a widespread thing), making quotas for certain representation levels (be it politicos pushing for things, businesses being mandated to have, the rank stupidity of "if you have two equal candidates then pick whichever has less privilege", entertainment being soft powered or whatever else)... ridiculous at best and actively unhelpful at worst.
I am sure there are those with generational wealth (never mind most things tend to fizzle out fairly quickly, family businesses tend not to survive, financial instruments not survive major financial downturns that wander along every 50 or so years or be dispersed by family trees being ever expanding as well as inflation) are sitting pretty despite a lack of effort where those that started out with nothing a few hundred years ago still have little despite working hands to the bone. Plenty do however still seem to make it, and as far as barriers to it... most are individual rather than bashing head against a system that actively dislikes them (though the system will take advantage of them, amusingly enough rather equally at that -- military does not care and needs meat for the grinder which all bleeds red in the end, universities don't care and will take your money as it is not them that loses out when you can't make ends meet with your less than stellar education, jobs don't care as they calculate salaries and influence policy (can't drive house prices down) at the right pain point for an area that you can't escape or thrive and don't much care what colour your skin is as can all push a button quite happily...).


As a great problem or great legacy that I need to consider today when doing more than studying history. Hard to sell me there. I am back once more to rather cure poverty than spend equal efforts tackling racism if I am after results that make lives of people better.

 

[wartutor]

• Times Obama was impeached vs. times Trump was impeached: 0 and 2
• Times Trump won the popular vote vs. times Obama won the popular vote: 0 and 2

You might want to avoid the term "0 and 2" when talking about Trump. It's pretty embarrassing for you and for him, particularly when Trump received bipartisan majorities to convict and was acquitted on the technicality that conviction requires a 2/3 majority in the senate. Republicans like Mitch McConnell also voted to acquit on the technicality that they incorrectly didn't think impeachment was constitutional constitutional after a president left office, not because they thought Trump wasn't guilty.

wow struck a cord Noone gives a crap how many times he was impeached compared to Obama except you and they could of impeached him 4 times and it would still be the same decision Acquitted. TRUMP 2024 GET SCARED NOW LIBS...

BLM is a peaceful protest movement against systemic racism. The riots at the Capitol were, by design, an attempted insurrection against the United States stoked by false claims of voter fraud and instigated by Trump so he could use the riots as leverage to overturn the election. Don't be disingenuous.

you forgot a word their "mostly" as in "mostly peaceful" isn't that what you brain washed liberals are suppost to say as city's are being burned to the ground by TERRORIST. Call them what you want but goto Portland and tell me how peaceful the protests are. I call bull shi*.

Nobody wanted to impeach Trump, particularly with the small chance of a conviction in the Senate, but Trump's actions were so deplorable that the precedent couldn't be set that those kinds of actions were acceptable and wouldn't result in consequences like impeachment. In other words, I'm sorry Trump sucks so bad.

Trump was acquitted because conviction requires a 2/3 majority in the Senate. In reality, Trump received bipartisan majorities to convict, and many of the Republicans voted to acquit because they didn't think a president could be impeached after leaving office, not because they thought he wasn't guilty.

Trump is an embarrassment who lost the popular vote twice, is a one-term president, and got impeached twice. The fact that seven Republican senators voted for his conviction is also embarrassing. In other words, Trump was acquitted twice, but how many times was Obama acquitted? The answer: not applicable.

Noone wanted to impeach Trump. Damn democrats have been trying to do that since he first came Into office 2 times now both acquitted nothing but what democrats are good at wasting money. At least they are bad at paying for the votes they bought. Can't be charged for paying for votes if you never actually pay right.

 

[Lacius]

I am not sure where people are getting that from. I was not trying to present a binary or a strawman.

I just find the notion that racism is a clear and present danger and threat to equality in the US, and its dire need for eradication and always considering effects from that angle to a joke, a misdirection, a red herring on the path to actually making things better.
I am sure there are three or four racists out there somewhere. They however have no power and can be ignored just like you can ignore a flock of crows gobbling a crop the other side of the country somewhere can be ignored. I am sure someone's grandad met some real arseholes (or would be considered as such today), note the story and I will be happy to hear it.

The relentless desire to frame it that way, create the original sin of privilege, create such asinine constructions as must see the struggle (as opposed to the content of the character thing), colourism, the whole "black people can't be racist" (whether any here think it a useful construction or utter farce is largely irrelevant as it does seem to a widespread thing), making quotas for certain representation levels (be it politicos pushing for things, businesses being mandated to have, the rank stupidity of "if you have two equal candidates then pick whichever has less privilege", entertainment being soft powered or whatever else)... ridiculous at best and actively unhelpful at worst.
I am sure there are those with generational wealth (never mind most things tend to fizzle out fairly quickly, family businesses tend not to survive, financial instruments not survive major financial downturns that wander along every 50 or so years or be dispersed by family trees being ever expanding as well as inflation) are sitting pretty despite a lack of effort where those that started out with nothing a few hundred years ago still have little despite working hands to the bone. Plenty do however still seem to make it, and as far as barriers to it... most are individual rather than bashing head against a system that actively dislikes them (though the system will take advantage of them, amusingly enough rather equally at that -- military does not care and needs meat for the grinder which all bleeds red in the end, universities don't care and will take your money as it is not them that loses out when you can't make ends meet with your less than stellar education, jobs don't care as they calculate salaries and influence policy (can't drive house prices down) at the right pain point for an area that you can't escape or thrive and don't much care what colour your skin is as can all push a button quite happily...).


As a great problem or great legacy that I need to consider today when doing more than studying history. Hard to sell me there. I am back once more to rather cure poverty than spend equal efforts tackling racism if I am after results that make lives of people better.

When you say things like, "see whatever troubles it has and conclude 'because racism,'" or, "Again if the US has a problem is it not a racism one; it is a poverty one," you're framing it as "I don't agree with you that it's all racism." Nobody is arguing that it's "all racism." Nobody is arguing that "poverty is not a problem." Nobody is arguing that having privilege and being overtly racist are the same thing. Nobody is arguing that having unconscious biases and being overtly racist are the same thing.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

wow struck a cord Noone gives a crap how many times he was impeached compared to Obama except you and they could of 4 times and it would still be the same decision Acquitted. TRUMP 2024 GET SCARED NOW LIBS...



you forgot a word their "mostly" as in "mostly peaceful" isn't that what you brain washed liberals are suppost to say as city's are being burned to the ground by TERRORIST. Call them what you want but goto Portland and tell me how peaceful the protests are. I call bull shi*.


Noone wanted to impeach Trump. Damy democrats have been trying to do that since he first came I Into office 2 times now both acquitted nothing but what democrats are good at waiting money. At least they are bad at paying for the votes they bought. Can't be charged for paying for votes if you never actually pay right.

Trump is the only president to be impeached twice, and it's as significant as it is embarrassing. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for you and you don't want to hear it.

BLM as a movement is inherently peaceful. There is nothing about it that's systemically violent, and BLM did not instigate violence. It should also go without saying, but cities are not being burned to the ground. Turn off the Faux News.

Democrats are not paying for votes, and this is evidenced by the fact that most people will be receiving the $2,000, not just Democratic voters. It's less the purchase of votes than Republicans giving handouts to the rich through tax cuts.

 

[Xzi]

I am back once more to rather cure poverty than spend equal efforts tackling racism if I am after results that make lives of people better.

In a lot of respects, the venn diagram of "poverty" and "racism" is practically a flat circle. If not for the Tulsa race massacre and black veterans being denied all their benefits, the modern face of poverty would look a lot different, and it wouldn't be so large an issue.

This is not something we can just dismiss as being only in the past, either. Whenever the discussion of adding more social safety nets is brought up, the right-wing always opposes it on the grounds that "the other" might see some benefit from it. Never mind that they might see some benefit themselves, by their calculations, it's always worth cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

[Plasmaster09]

In a lot of respects, the venn diagram of "poverty" and "racism" is practically a flat circle. If not for the Tulsa race massacre and black veterans being denied all their benefits, the modern face of poverty would look a lot different, and it wouldn't be so large an issue.

This is not something we can just dismiss as being only in the past, either. Whenever the discussion of adding more social safety nets is brought up, the right-wing always opposes it on the grounds that "the other" might see some benefit from it. Never mind that they might see some benefit themselves, by their calculations, it's always worth cutting off the nose to spite the face.

In advance, before Fast can spout more of the same ignorant nonsense:
Going "but there are white people in poverty too" is not acknowledging the vast majority of two large issues in favor of misdirecting attention on to a small sector of one of them. Also known as textbook whataboutism.

 

[Lacius]

In a lot of respects, the venn diagram of "poverty" and "racism" is practically a flat circle. If not for the Tulsa race massacre and black veterans being denied all their benefits, the modern face of poverty would look a lot different, and it wouldn't be so large an issue.

This is not something we can just dismiss as being only in the past, either. Whenever the discussion of adding more social safety nets is brought up, the right-wing always opposes it on the grounds that "the other" might see some benefit from it. Never mind that they might see some benefit themselves, by their calculations, it's always worth cutting off the nose to spite the face.

In advance, before Fast can spout more of the same ignorant nonsense:
Going "but there are white people in poverty too" is not acknowledging the vast majority of two large issues in favor of misdirecting attention on to a small sector of one of them. Also known as textbook whataboutism.

@FAST6191
If you acknowledge that people of color were oppressed in the past, then you should acknowledge that creates economic disparities in the present. If a Black family cannot get a mortgage to buy a home, for example, that hinders their ability to build equity to leave to the next generation in the form of a college education, an inheritance, a security net, etc. A lot of White families have these privileges that Black families do not. That doesn't necessarily mean the White family did anything wrong.

 

[FAST6191]

Ooh. Might even get my own hate thread/"shouldn't be on staff" thread at this rate. Been waiting years for that one.

We seem to be getting nowhere fast with this one. Not sure where things are heading either.

Racism = generally a bad plan unless you are fighting a war against others or living in tribes rather than mass society. Both for huggy feely reasons and because useful people are generally in shorter supply than you might like so ignoring/neglecting a segment of the population (which can demonstrably function at high levels) is bad from an economics perspective too so those that rise above tend to flourish.

The issue here seems to come in what we would view as the extent of it present within the US today, actively influencing the economy and systems created as a result of it or governing it, and thus whether to use it (or indeed the goal of the eradication of it) as a lens by which to contemplate things. Or whether it is largely a marginal issue and historical quirk. There may be some lingering effects you can go wide or narrow to showcase, long term finance and life outcomes as a function of generational concepts is fascinating subject actually. I would still question whether that needs to be a lens by which to consider things today -- historical inference is fun and often useful but treating the problem you face today is probably the better plan (can even use your historical analysis to see about not allowing it to happen tomorrow).
Seemingly also whether one flavour of politico is more apt to do something about it or whether when in office "you play the game of politics or politics plays you" means most of them are more concerned with the next election and funding their campaigns rather than getting work done.

Even if I thought it a problem of great magnitude in the modern US (the culture, the companies, the legal code, the enforced aspects of the legal code... all speaking to "yeah maybe not" when it comes to going "ew darkies" as a policy in anything other than personal friendships, and probably still want to keep that to yourself) then I would likely still be in favour of curing poverty -- cholera is bad news so you can develop high end medicine or you can stop shitting in your water supply, the latter tending to be cheaper and more effective in the long run. Also solves the issues for those that are otherwise troubled that might not fall under the simplistic umbrella of race (and racism), and spares you the bother of sorting those doing well (charity and aid being best used on those that need it).

I still find the idea of privilege in the modern world a ridiculous notion to try to frame things around, much less try to actively suppress in myself* if I happen to have got some somewhere along the line or elevate others to enjoying the glorious heights of (most of which amount you -- you still gonna have to get some skills which we will maybe give you the rudiments of, pay your dues, deal with arseholes and stupid people, and work until you are functionally useless, hope you die quickly after that to not cost this fund much money). Still not even close to anything more than noting it as a notion some others seem to contemplate much like I note religious ceremonies or beliefs. The idea of it being some obvious and self evident truth... laughable, hope those that believe in it see the error of their ways.

*I was watching some video the other day and the guy (that had managed to cultivate a bit of an audience) was all "yeah when I started I did consider that my spot (on an infinite platform) could have gone to a woman or a person of colour" which was ridiculous in the extreme. Always compete on merits from where I sit.

 

[chrisrlink]

I'd say just let the DOJ take a wack at trump i bet it will be more success than impeachment (for one legal proceedings is a lot more unbiased than the senate (Jury will be thrown out if they show bias like on fb on premeditation to aquitt or convict trump and even the verdict could be if discovered too late in the process (Mistrial) the thing is with so many convictions pending his arrest and detainment needs to be granted no bail (I'm sure any judge would agree with me), he's an iminate flight risk with the money and planes to skip town i doubt jjust forfiture of his passport would do nothing considering he owns the plane

 

[smf]

Again if the US has a problem is it not a racism one; it is a poverty one.

Can't it have both? Can't they be related?

It would appear that the problem with poverty is there is a large chunk of people don't like the idea of helping those who don't "deserve it", with each person having their own definition of what that is based on their own prejudice.

I still find the idea of privilege in the modern world a ridiculous notion to try to frame things around,

Because you have it. It's like breathing, you only think about it when it's not there.

 

[chrisrlink]

shifting to biden I know he has his hands full with covid right now,but his promise on SSI reform i feel is a big priority as it stands now i can only work 1-2 hours a week so I'm not penalized (As I'm taking Cert courses while living on my own and paying rent via SSI/wavers it's tough trust me one i get a few certs i should be well prepared to get off ssi and have an actual job

 

[FAST6191]

Can't it have both? Can't they be related?

It would appear that the problem with poverty is there is a large chunk of people don't like the idea of helping those who don't "deserve it", with each person having their own definition of what that is based on their own prejudice.

It could, and it could. Don't see it in this instance beyond some fairly tenuous links that are generally lost in noise and otherwise surmountable. Net results could be better but not enough that I wail and gnash my teeth over the grim spectre that is racism.

Maybe. The thing about solving poverty (preferably by a means that allows those to worry less about the lower rungs of Maslow's pyramid outside of them going camping in the woods, and in a somewhat sustainable way) is it is not really concerned with race beyond any particular issues that are medically resulting from it.

As far as me having it. Does seem to be an original sin that I am born with and can't escape if I listen to people professing the good word. I should flagellate myself and consider my good fortune for the general world and poor fortune for the metaphysical that sees me need to take action on the matter I guess (wonder if there is some kind of Pascal's wager for privilege). Theoretically it might be possible to determine the exact level (check it if you care to use the parlance) I am carrying around at any one time and in turn transfer it to another being that might lack some, or see past its rose tinted haze to see the true world in all its horrible darkness (a darkness I am somewhat ironically called blind to).

 

[Lacius]

I'd say just let the DOJ take a wack at trump i bet it will be more success than impeachment (for one legal proceedings is a lot more unbiased than the senate (Jury will be thrown out if they show bias like on fb on premeditation to aquitt or convict trump and even the verdict could be if discovered too late in the process (Mistrial) the thing is with so many convictions pending his arrest and detainment needs to be granted no bail (I'm sure any judge would agree with me), he's an iminate flight risk with the money and planes to skip town i doubt jjust forfiture of his passport would do nothing considering he owns the plane

Trump has so much debt about to come due that I'm not sure it would be accurate to describe him as having money.

 

[Plasmaster09]

Trump has so much debt about to come due that I'm not sure it would be accurate to describe him as having money.

He hit a P-Switch at birth and its duration is about to end.

It could, and it could. Don't see it in this instance beyond some fairly tenuous links that are generally lost in noise and otherwise surmountable. Net results could be better but not enough that I wail and gnash my teeth over the grim spectre that is racism.

Maybe. The thing about solving poverty (preferably by a means that allows those to worry less about the lower rungs of Maslow's pyramid outside of them going camping in the woods, and in a somewhat sustainable way) is it is not really concerned with race beyond any particular issues that are medically resulting from it.

As far as me having it. Does seem to be an original sin that I am born with and can't escape if I listen to people professing the good word. I should flagellate myself and consider my good fortune for the general world and poor fortune for the metaphysical that sees me need to take action on the matter I guess (wonder if there is some kind of Pascal's wager for privilege). Theoretically it might be possible to determine the exact level (check it if you care to use the parlance) I am carrying around at any one time and in turn transfer it to another being that might lack some, or see past its rose tinted haze to see the true world in all its horrible darkness (a darkness I am somewhat ironically called blind to).

The pile of strawmen you've thrown our way is so vast that finding a needle in it would be a Herculean effort.
All we're saying is that systemic racism (and by extension white privilege) are major problems.
We're not asking you to ignore any other major problems.
We're asking you to accept that this is one, and stop complaining about the laughably small amount of effort it takes to RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS A THING THAT EXISTS AND SHOULDN'T, and that your prior ignorance of it was likely due to having said privilege yourself.
It's as simple as "ok yeah that's a problem, I'll try to take it into account when looking at a situation that might involve it".
The sheer amount of willful ignorance, deliberate denial, strawmen and distraction you've displayed rather than accept that a problem exists and that internal bias may have prevented you from noticing it is a BAFFLING new level of stubborn. (And considering how obstinate I can get at times, that's saying a lot.)

 

[Hanafuda]

1. Remove Filibuster in Senate
2. Make Washington DC a State (votes are there)
3. Make Puerto Rico a Sate (votes are there)

Doing this would increase the Senate to 104, plus increase the house ( a rebalance would be nessssary).

4. Come up with Final Solution to the Conservative Question.

 

[Plasmaster09]

4. Come up with Final Solution to the Conservative Question.

Well, that escalated uncomfortably quickly. It's hard to remember so many people in this thread, but at this point I'm assuming you're a Trumper trying to straw-man us into looking stupid.

Though there is a significantly less dark solution here: education. People are substantially less likely to believe baseless nonsense if they've received prior education that in some way disproves said nonsense!