1. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    A lot of the confusion regarding how the system works stems from the fact that the U.S. was never meant to be this giant monstrosity of a federal state - the states were always meant to be autonomous first and federalised second. "The" government was supposed to be the state government in your individual state whereas the fed was just some distant body you sent your representatives to, which is why it's the state legislatures that, technically, elect the president. They do so on the advice of the general public, but for all intents and purposes there's no reason why they'd have to. Nobody should give two shits about who the president is - the president lives in Washington, not in your home state. But hey, never too late to fix it. Then again, the government never shrinks. Pickle jar. :lol:
     
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  2. Xzi

    Xzi GBAtemp's Resident Plok Expert
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    Great in theory and/or in ages past, but in practice corporations would just insert themselves into that role instead, and things would be even more dystopian than they are now. There's a reason we chose to become the United States, apes together strong. Individualized the states could be conquered or exploited by any number of entities.
     
  3. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    United for very specific causes, and nothing else.
     
  4. Xzi

    Xzi GBAtemp's Resident Plok Expert
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    Right. Mostly it's for security reasons, but it also has the added benefit of dragging certain states into the modern era, kicking and screaming if need be. Given enough autonomy, states like Kentucky would have poison tap water, and children working assembly lines for five cents an hour.
     
  5. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    Oh man, at least wine and dine me first! Oh, you're moving too fast and I don't think it's right. I'm not giving up no love tonight! :wub:
     
  6. Xzi

    Xzi GBAtemp's Resident Plok Expert
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    Disgusting. I'll take two federal governments if they serve as a double condom against this type of parasitic behavior from the bourgeois. Exploiting children in any fashion is as scummy as it gets.
     
  7. Acid_Snake

    Acid_Snake GBAtemp Regular
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    First of all it's not Galicia, it's Madrid, if you're gonna debate at least make sure you know what you're talking about, though I don't blame you for your lack of knowledge since that seems to be the norm with american lefties nowadays. Secondly this incident is being investigated by the legal system so if anything it is at least evidence of fowl play. You're not gonna be smarter than police and judges no matter how almighty you think you are. This isn't just speculation like you claim to be, it's on the entire national news and there's more than one case of it.

    If Ayuso is far right then Biden is a 20th century conservative considering their political views. And where did you get the "antivax" thing from? Did you pull that out of your ass? Never have I heard about antivaxers anywhere in the Spainish government or any of their political parties in the entire spectrum. Only dumbasses in the street and they are a silent minority (more than 70% of our country is willing to get vaccinated). There's been a few antivax celebrities (like Miguel Bose) and they've been laughed out of their celebrity status. Madrid is doing pretty well vaccinating people, how the hell does that work if they have an antivax president acording to you?

    And what problem do you have with "communism vs freedom"? You do know we have a self-declared communist party running for presidency? You do know this communist party has used violence against opposing parties? And since when is it "bad" to fight communism? That ideology should be erradicated just like we erradicated fascism back in the 20th century. There's no room for totalitarianism in our democracies (if you care in the least bit about democracy). But I'm guessing you're one of those idiots with no idea of what communism really is (you probably think there's a lot of sunshine and rainbows and everyone is happy), but let me give you a hint about this ideology that you seem to be defending: communism and fascism share about 90% of their ideology (they are both socialist authoritarian regimes). Think about that next time you try to defend communism.

    WTF does being a "constitutional monarchy" have anything to do with any of this? It's completely irrelevant (the King has nothing to do with politics, AT ALL) and only shows you have a lack of understanding of politics.

    Because it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that this past US election has been an inspiration for other countries with far left communist ideologies to do the same fraud. Or are you gonna tell me it's a coincidence that mail voting fraud has become an issue in another country just after it became an issue in the US? Is it also a coincidence that it's always a far left communist party involved?
    Is it also a coincidence that BLM, antifa and many other radical left violent groups are being heavily funded by Venezuela and Cuba?
     
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  8. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    Faithless electors can exist. Of the 33 states that require electors to vote the way their state does, half don't have any repercussions for not doing so, and many of the others only punish by fines. Considering this information was at the top of the Wikipedia page you posted, it sounds like you intentionally omitted this information. I suggest looking at the 2016 map for how common faithless electors can be, and I suggest doing research before making quips about how you're "very familiar" with how this works.

    Some state legislatures can refuse to certify their election results. In some cases, they only need to justify their refusal so far as not wanting to face political repercussions themselves. If they delay the certification long enough, it could cause the House to vote on the election instead.

    It is not a contradictory position to be against the filibuster, and even say I generally wouldn't use it, while also not saying I absolutely definitely would never use it. You might as well be trying to make a gotcha out of me condemning killing another human being while not saying I definitely absolutely would never kill another human being (or campaigning in Pennsylvania while condemning the electoral college). I condemn the filibuster regardless of which party is in power, I'd vote to remove it regardless of who was in power, I generally wouldn't use the filibuster, and it's hard to articulate a time I would hypothetically use the filibuster. It's not a contradiction, despite how desperate you might be for me to contradict myself. Funnily, I could also contradict myself all I want, and it wouldn't do anything to argue against my points that the filibuster, unrepresentative Senate, Electoral College, gerrymandering, etc. are undemocratic.

    Saying you don't care how your team comes to power or how your policies are enacted, whether it's democratic or not, is authoritarian, it's anti-democratic, and when you're apparently against faithless electors and states not certifying their elections on the basis of fake election fraud, it's contradictory. You say principles should come after your team gets power, so maybe the same is true for logical consistency.
     
    Last edited by Lacius, May 4, 2021
  9. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    Now you're going in circles, and lying - that, or purposefully cherry-picking the parts that fit nicely in your spaghetti bowl. I've already mentioned pages ago that I never said that. Your attempt at mental gymnastics will not help you save face - you did a booboo and now you can eat it, or you can just continue being a hypocrite. I don't care which since I've already said everything I had to say on the matter. There's nothing for me to gain from this conversation, you've already said everything I needed to hear and then some. You still haven't even grasped which part of the exchange you tripped up on, but you keep digging regardless. Should I help? :lol:

    If you're going to condemn someone from all the way up there on your high horse for using means that you find "undemocratic" and "authoritarian" in the pursuit of their goals, be sure that you *wouldn't* do the same in the same hypothetical scenario. If you get caught saying that there's a chance you would, you're effectively condemning yourself from that point onwards and making a spectacle of yourself, which you've proven to be quite adept at. That is the point of contention here, not whether or not the filibuster or the electoral college are "authoritarian" and "undemocratic". I've already proclaimed my willingness to use methods that I may find distasteful otherwise in order to achieve political goals, should the need to do so arise - in my case it's not out of character. You've rejected that notion, and you did so by condemning me and my stance. If we *both* would've used *the same methods* to protect the Republic and, according to your estimation, the methods anti-democratic and I'm deplorable for using them, then by the law of transitive property *you* would use anti-democratic methods and you're *equally deplorable*. In fact, I would argue that you're *more* deplorable since I'm honest about it whereas you're trying to hide from that fact behind a shield of faux principles.

    To put it in one sentence, you got Diogenes of Sinope'ed. Thank you for playing.
     
  10. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    So the filibuster is bad but would use it if something egregious was happening and that was a (the only? the only viable non bullets involved?) way to stop it?

    Two main issues.
    1) Your particular political faction waxes, wanes, changes and otherwise has its level of political power change. This applies to every faction out there which may have their own thoughts and opinions on how the world works, should work, can be made to work, sacrifices acceptable to achieve things, interpretations of baseline concepts and also see their power levels wax and wane (short version any tool you have someone else will use when they have power, or indeed don't as the case may be here, and if you think future peeps will always be more of what you like and situations will always be favourable to it then... you are wrong or at absolute best then stoned out of your gourd levels of optimistic).
    2) Slippery slope/thin end of the wedge. See also executive orders (originally a fairly radical thing, today almost banal and used in what might traditionally be normal debated policy), various spying ordinances (some were discussing patriot act, seems like a good example with parallels in many other countries -- RIPA in the UK for instance being a rough equivalent), the nature of court structures (while "the supreme court is making law" is often a cry of the clueless its changing nature as time goes on and activities they undertake are less of a thing that the existence of gets to be questioned) and the general trend towards often needless complexity you see for thousands of years in every political and economic stripe (new startup takes down lumbering dinosaur/gets bought up by dinosaur in lieu of them doing their own research, trend to monotheism in religion and then fracturing as communication gets tricky and localism asserts itself).

    Personally I would sooner go after riders than filibusters if you are going after things with odd or often negative effects. Though I would be curious how much is the unspoken filibuster threat (can't do that as they will just) vs voiced threat vs actual filibustering.
     
  11. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    First, so much for you not wanting to continue the conversation. Nobody's making you reply, and continuously saying "I've said all I have to say on the matter" while continuing to say more on the matter is also contradictory.

    Second, you are the one who made the argument, in response to my criticisms of undemocratic systems like the filibuster, unrepresentative Senate, Electoral College, and gerrymandering, that you don't care if these things exist so long as your team wins. Am I mistaken? Because you don't have to look farther than your most recent post that I'm responding to right now where you seem to be saying the same thing.

    I also never called these undemocratic systems "authoritarian." I called your supposed view that you want your team to win regardless of whether or not it's democratic an example of authoritarianism.

    I'm not advocating for the existence of these undemocratic systems, but you are. We're not the same, and you appear to have tripped where you thought I did.
     
  12. djpannda

    djpannda GBAtemp's Pannda
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    " heavily funded by Venezuela and Cuba?"
    Thank God I read the last sentence before I read the whole thing.. because I would of Gotten mad if I went thru all that to End as Sydney Powell's "Hugo Chavez Zombie defense" [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by djpannda, May 4, 2021
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  13. AmandaRose

    AmandaRose Do what I do. Hold tight and pretend it’s a plan
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    Is it coincidence that there was supposed mail voter fraud in the 2020 American election after there was voter fraud in Spain in 2019?? Hmm just wondering :rofl2:


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eu...into-allegations-of-voter-registry-fraud/amp/

    Or what about the voter fraud in the 2016 Spanish election

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/archiv...llegations-of-vote-fraud-emerge-in-spain/amp/
     
    Last edited by AmandaRose, May 4, 2021
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  14. D34DL1N3R

    D34DL1N3R Nephilim
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    But you're perfectly fine with YOUR side of the fence doing it & remain completely silent when they do. Have I ever told you you're a hypocrite? And regarding Biden, I have no concern for his treatment of children. If he was molesting children in plain sight, with video evidence to prove it, there would be lawsuits. To this day not one single parent has come forward with a lawsuit against Biden for inappropriate touching, molesting, or anything of the sort towards a single child.. So if all you have are more baseless conspiracy theories, you can just shut your mouth right now as Foxi has already stated there will be no more of that going on here.
     
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  15. djpannda

    djpannda GBAtemp's Pannda
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    You mean to tell me it was the Españoles fault... I never Trusted their Ceceo! lol
     
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  16. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    It doesn't really matter if you advocate for the removal of these systems or not - you stood on the dais and proclaimed that using them is deplorable. You have the option of walking that back by adding that use of systems you don't like is in fact conditional on the circumstances or you can continue arguing with yourself and looking a bit silly. It's all the same to me, I had my fill of laughs.
     
  17. tabzer

    tabzer Newbie
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    It's not my own side of the fence. I haven't made claims about Biden or Trump being perverts. You, however, used the claim that someone else is a pervert to excuse allegations of another. It's called "whataboutism" and you are pretending to be against pedophilia and exploitation as you use it as a opportunity in the same post. It's despicable.
     
  18. D34DL1N3R

    D34DL1N3R Nephilim
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    "It's not my own side....." = Lie
    "I haven't made claims about...." = Lie
    "You used the claim that...." = Lie
    "You are pretending to be against blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....." = Lie
     
    Last edited by D34DL1N3R, May 4, 2021
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  19. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    I've said consistently that these undemocratic systems shouldn't exist and that they shouldn't be used. Please tag me if/when you work up the nerve to answer my question.

    Edit: I never called their uses deplorable. I said advocating for anti-democratic systems because they benefit one's team is deplorable.
     
    Last edited by Lacius, May 4, 2021
  20. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    I am in no way compelled to answer questions when your own answers are vague and non-committal. I can always pull the Lacius special - "well, I don't know, I'd have to know more details", the same trick you pulled earlier. Again, if using systems you find anti-democratic is deplorable, you yourself are deplorable by your own admission. Wiggle all you like.
     
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