1. Jiolo_Miles

    Jiolo_Miles Member
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    Even if granted the need for police reform, a one size fit all wouldn't work. Right now a lot of the protesters are asking for the removal of police funding in their communities. If they get what they want, how higher will the death toll be in the black community ?
     
  2. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    Rioting has occurred, yes. I am not sure what your point is by asking this question. My points still stand regardless.
     
  3. Xzi

    Xzi GBAtemp's Resident Plok Expert
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    I would be immediately booted off the force for reporting other officers when they do something unethical or unlawful. That's part of what I'm referring to when I say sweeping reform is desperately needed, many departments have created an atmosphere where being a "bad cop" is the only option.
     
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  4. tthousand

    tthousand Model #I
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    It's literally right under your nose, in your face and down your throat everyday. "White Americans are bad and need to be less white". All the media is doing is furthering the divide amongst it's citizens. If they have white people hating white people, imagine what the non-white people think about white people.

    Personally, growing up most of my friends were Asian for Latino. I have seen more racism against white people by the normal everyday person than I have against other races. That's just what I have witnessed for myself though. I cannot speak of everyone else.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    I suppose it's where your from really. I would be booted from my local department because I believe in our rights and constitution... which I guess cops around here frown upon.
     
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  5. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    First, please understand the difference between violence and systemic violence before continuing down this path. Second, where?

    I've literally never heard this, and I don't think you have either.

    How?

    First, seeing "racism against White people" is not necessarily systemic. Second, anecdotes are not data. Third, racism against people of color, systemic or otherwise, is a far more substantial problem than racism against White people.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    What a loaded piece of bullshit. I believe in our rights and Constitution, but I doubt you and I think similarly. In fact, based on what I've seen so far from your posts, I would guess you believe less in our rights and Constitution than you think you do, but that's not a conversation I want to have in public right now.
     
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  6. tthousand

    tthousand Model #I
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    I do not know what to tell you. It's everywhere you look, unless you choose to close your eyes.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    But here you are, bringing it up. What a crock of shit. But based on what I've seen from your posts, I would not expect anything more.

    Feel free to PM buddy
     
    Last edited by tthousand, Apr 13, 2021
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  7. Jiolo_Miles

    Jiolo_Miles Member
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    No I'm not assuming blacks are inherently more violent due to their skin color, but are you saying that we shouldn't consider what the culture thinks and believes? if you grew up being taught that the police are out to hunt you, won't that affect how an interaction with the police may go down wether the interaction was justified or not ? I had mentioned before that I grew up in Puerto Rico where there are cultural norms that are very similar and toxic. Then migrate to the states and is the same bullshit excuse, that the reason why we don't get far in life is because there are systems put in place to keep us down. Never mind the Barack Obamas, Michael Jordans, LeBron James, Oprahs, Beyonce, Clarence Thomas and Condoleza Rice's that had made it in this country via hard work. I'm not denying that there are isolated incidents of brutality, positions of power and authority tend to attract some very evil people, but that is a long shot from systematic racism.
     
    Last edited by Jiolo_Miles, Apr 14, 2021
  8. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    My comment about one thinking Black people are inherently more violent was not directed at you. You just engage in prejudicial thinking where you prejudge an entire group of people and tell them what they're doing wrong.

    Systemic racism objectively exists, and I suggest you educate yourself. Naming off some anecdotes about some people who were successful doesn't change that.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism
     
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  9. tthousand

    tthousand Model #I
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    The whole damn system is what is wrong, not just parts of it. White, black, brown, asian, etc... we are all being oppressed by the powers that be. The reasons why the people @Jiolo_Miles got ahead in life might be due to hard, hard work... or the reason they got as far as they did is because they sold their souls to the devil.

    It is true that anyone can make it in this work through GREAT sacrifice, no matter the color of your skin. The problem is that the life path may not be for most.

    Look, you can believe what ever you want, that is fine by me and I do not intend to insult anyone. But respect my right to believe what I want to as well. What most of you do not realize is that I take everything with a heap of salt. I really questions everything, and only tend to lean one way or the other. I am always willing to keep my mind open and let go of my preconceptions... something that terrifies most people.
     
  10. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!
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    We don't have a policing problem. /s


     
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  11. Louse

    Louse go play rez
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    Urine and feces, yes, urine and feces!
     
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  12. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    Socioeconomic mobility in the United States isn't great, and it's worse for people of color. It's a myth that everyone has equal opportunity. Systemic racism exists.

    You have a right to your opinion, but you don't have a right to your own facts.
     
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  13. tthousand

    tthousand Model #I
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    Believe me, I consider everything in this thread an opinion and not a fact.

    I have a theory the powers that be want to keep everyone down, but yes, they might target blacks more than others by doing things like dropping guns and drugs in their communitites, as well as many other things. But the majority of the people are not to blame. As long as those in power remain at the top, nothing is going to change.

    We are in need of a revolution, but THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED.
     
    Last edited by tthousand, Apr 14, 2021
  14. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    "Systemic racism of the gaps" is not an argument - the fact that disparities exist does not prove that there are any artificial barriers preventing people from being successful based on their race. The same system which supposedly persecutes against black people simultaneously allows Asians to thrive - they achieve better scores in the education system, have significantly higher median incomes and the lowest incarceration rates. If "the system" is built for the benefit of whites then the white supremacists in charge didn't do a very good job. A disparity between outcomes of black and white people does not prove systemic racism any more than the disparities between asians and whites do.

    In terms of policing, year after year studies fail to demonstrate a significant disparity in terms of policing - in they exist at all, it's been demonstrated that black people are (on average) less likely to be shot by police and more likely to face some degree of physical violence compared to white suspects in similar circumstances.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/...police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

    When you look at the numbers with a cool head, things click together rather neatly. Predominantly black neighbourhoods have higher levels of criminality, and as a consequence there's a higher police presence in them. Where there's a higher police presence there are more encounters with the police, and any encounter with the police can potentially be fatal, regardless of whether you're black, white or neon green.

    The problem of criminality needs to be addressed with more policing, not less, as well as better training and a more stringent selection process. Negative interactions with the police aren't just fueled by poor policing though, they're also fueled by a strong distrust of the police which is endemic in those same neighbourhoods.

    There are so many causes of this situation that trying to name them all is almost futile - single parenthood (statistically increases the likely hood of incarceration by a significant margin), wide-spread use of drugs, relatively low standards of living, poor educational outcomes, the world is your oyster when it comes to naming and shaming. Some of those problems could perhaps be addressed with policy, others need solutions in the communities themselves. "Whitey's fault" is not a solution, and does not adequately explain the disparities we see either.

    One would be a fool not to admit past injustices, but one would also be hard-pressed to point out *systemic* injustices today. There are no laws on the books that explicitly discriminate against black people. There are certainly laws that are aimed to combat specific crimes, however if those crimes happen to be predominantly committed in black neighbourhoods then the logical conclusion isn't "systemic racism", it's "criminality problem".
     
  15. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    Systemic racism factually makes it more difficult for people of color to do things that white people can do more easily. The data is clear that, when presented with identical resumes, people with non-white names are far less likely to get interviews. Housing discrimination still happens on the basis of race. Racism from yesteryear continues to percolate across time to the present, as things like mortgage discrimination and red lining have resulted in decreased average equity when comparing families of color and white families. And this list barely covers the systemic barriers that people of color have to deal with.

    The model minority myth in reference to Asian Americans is a racist counterargument against the Civil Rights Movement, and to not look so racist after WWII during the Cold War, and it's racist propaganda you've unfortunately bought into. In reality, the United States for a long time had laws restricting Asian immigration for racist reasons, and when a new law was passed after WWII increasing Asian immigration, it only allowed successful and well-educated Asians into the country. In other words, you're touting a myth that a racial community is well-educated and successful after the United States only let well-educated and successful people over. And, as I mentioned previously, the effects of racist policies continue to percolate into the present.

    Well-educated and successful Asian families gave their kids a good education so they could become successful, and then they did the same thing for their kids, and so on. Black people in this country largely started off as slaves brought here against their will, and even after slavery ended, Black families continued to be persecuted and kept down.
     
  16. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    I didn't buy into any myths - I see statistics, I draw conclusion. You claim that the disparity is caused by a wealth and educational gap dating back to WWII - that's a fair argument, but doesn't negate the fact that the current system does not discriminate by race (as shown by *current* performance) in any shape or form - it used to, now it does not.

    Asians used to build railroads in subhuman conditions, they didn't have the luxury of "inheriting" a whole lot of wealth, and yet here we are. The transcontinental railroad alone was built by around 15000-20000 Chinese immigrants, many of whom were killed or injured in the process.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chinese_Americans

    Anti-Asian sentiment was very prevalent, resulting in expulsions, the Chinese Exclusion Act, Magnuson Act etc. - the reason why "Chinatowns" exist at all is because Chinese workers lived in slum towns - they were poor. The idea that the gross majority of Asian immigrants came from wealthy or highly educated families is patently false, that didn't happen until later waves of immigration. This sentiment continued well into the WWII era - let's not forget that the internment camps are still standing today.

    Regarding resumes, I would *love* to see some numbers on that - the studies I've seen indicate a strong preference towards POC candidates, particularly black women. I also don't see how that has anything to do with systemic discrimination - the government doesn't do a whole lot of hiring, private companies do. If you can prove that a specific company rejects POC applicants at a significantly higher rate than white applicants despite similar qualifications, you should probably report it because it's literally illegal to do so already.

    Sorry, I'm not buying what you're selling, but you've made some fair points which are worth reading.
     
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  17. Haloman800

    Haloman800 a real gril
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    There's no evidence "socioeconomics" is what's causing 12% of the population to commit 50% of all murders. When the Great Depression happened in the 1930s, millions of Americans went from middle class to below the poverty line, yet we didn't see an uptick in crime. Crime causes poverty, not the other way around.

    There's no evidence that police arrest blacks more than the proportion of crime they commit. The National Crime Victimization Survey every year randomly surveys 50,000 to 75,000 people to ask them if they were a victim of a crime, and who was the perpetrator.

    The survey shows that the arrests rates line up with the amount of crime that various groups commit, i.e. blacks are arrested to their proportion of crimes they commit.
     
  18. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    It's a fact that the model minority myth about Asian Americans happened in part as a direct consequence of the 1965 immigration bill. When immigrants come to the United States with an education, skills, and preexisting wealth, they tend to do better and pass on that advantage to the next generation.

    It's also well-established that the model Asian-American minority myth was a counterargument in direct response to the Civil Rights Movement. In other words, white people were arguing for the conservation of segregation, legal discrimination, etc. using the newly invented model minority myth as their rationalization, and like many others, you've bought into it.

    There's a whole Wikipedia page on the model minority myth, its origins, and its detrimental effect on society.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority

    For racial biases in job hiring, according to the following study, out of 5,000 identical resumes, white people received 50% more interview requests. Other studies show the same systemic biases.
    https://uh.edu/~adkugler/Bertrand&Mullainathan.pdf (it's a PDF)

    The government could, but doesn't, do more to curb systemic racism like hiring discrimination, which is part of what makes it systemic. There are numerous other examples of systemic racism in the United States I haven't even mentioned.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

    I suggest reading some books on the topic of systemic racism in the United States, because your failure to 'buy it" isn't due to any lack of evidence. If you're genuinely interested, I can give you the names of some of my favorite books.

    I didn't say socioeconomic factors were the only reason for the criminal statistics we previously talked about. I voted several reasons for the disparity.

    There is, however, ample evidence of increased policing of Black communities even when controlling for actual crime rates. Traffic stops (and when and why they turn fatal) are a good example of disproportionate policing.
     
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  19. Seliph

    Seliph Best Girl
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    This thread is a circular mess idk how you guys can stand it

    Seems like a lot of people who don't face systemic discrimination wanna act like it doesn't exist - as if you have any say about the lived experiences of minority populations who prove time and time again that it does in fact exist even though some people want to act like it doesn't because they literally don't know what it's like to be discriminated against and therefore can't understand blatant discrimination even if it's right in their face.

    Yeesh.
     
    Last edited by Seliph, Apr 14, 2021
  20. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Endless Trash
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    Selective immigration is only one of many reasons listed that explains why the stereotype turns out to ring true in certain (not all - South Asians seem to be the odd ones out, immigrants from India and China lead the charge) groups of Asian immigrants. Cultural differences is another, and given the fact that the same emphasis on educational achievement can be seen in modern China and India today, I'm going to lean on that as the root cause. It is not uncommon to see Chinese parents in particular putting their children under intense, often unreasonable pressure to perform. That does translate to better outcomes in the education system, however it's rather detrimental to mental health (given the suicide rates in those parts of the world). It's a culture that's laser-focused on success, both domestically and in the United States.
    This study is almost 20 years old and doesn't reflect the current job market. That's not to say that there isn't progress to be made, however as of today minority hires make up the bulk of all new hires (25-54). It appears to me that the tide is turning around as-is. The job market is cyclical - in order to record a new hiring one of two things needs to happen, a new job needs to be created *or* an old employee needs to retire to make room for a new one. Right now we're seeing both a wave of retirements and (up until the pandemic) an economic boom, so the trend is likely to continue (unless inflation catches up to us).

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/minorities-ages-25-to-54-make-up-most-new-hires-in-workforce.html

    I'm of the opinion that the government should do absolutely nothing in terms of who private companies hire and for what reasons. The qualifications to do the job are the only relevant factor in hiring. I'm not particularly interested in what skin colour an employee is, I do care about whether or not they can help me with my query quickly and reliably. I consider affirmative action or diversity quotas as explicitly racist in nature, freedom of association should always trump social engineering. Nobody said changes in hiring practices would take place instantaneously, they should be organic, and for the most part have been organic. As long as there is *no law* that encourages discrimination based on race, I am perfectly happy concluding that any discrimination that does take place isn't systemic, as in, a part of an organised system. People's biases are what people's biases are - businesses that refuse to hire well-qualified employees based on skin colour alone will inevitably fall behind those businesses that do not, their hiring pools are smaller (by their own making). One thing that has helped close the gap in the UK and is worth emulating is the standardisation of job application forms. Here on the other side of the pond including any identifying information like spelling out the race of an applicant or attaching photographs is a disqualifying factor, it's not practiced specifically to avoid biased selection. The initial picks are chosen solely on the basis of qualifications and the cover letter, which is great. What happens during the interview can't really be influenced in a way that wouldn't interfere with how business owners run their businesses, but it's a small step that helps people get heard. A good interview performance goes a long way.
    I'm only interested in conclusions that are data-driven and not decades old. I'm also thoroughly uninterested in works that explain the current situation away with the specter of "systemic racism" - either they can point to a policy that is in law here and now that's holding minorities back or they can't. With that being said, you can shoot me a PM with a bibliography and I can give it a cursory read - I'm rather familiar with the subject, I'm simply highly critical of some of the conclusions, particularly when I can come up with 20 better explanations each time the ghost of racism is mentioned.
    Evidence suggests that "black communities" (I still can't understand how that's a "community", I'm against grouping people by skin colour on principle) are heavily *underpoliced* when taking into account the levels of crime in those areas. If there's a symptom of "systemic racism" at all, it's that. Certain parts of town are "not worth policing" to an extent that would generate a measurable decrease in crime rates, which in turn would result in better outcomes for young people who live there, including black youths. 131+ people have been killed in Chicago this year already, and it's only April. If I was a hypothetical mayor of a city like this, there would be a cop on every street corner going forward until people stop dying needlessly in drive-by shootings. I can't imagine being able to focus on fulfilling my potential when there's a good chance I'll get randomly shot - not by the police, but by my neighbour.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...0210401-dprv6a7aj5g47m3vc74ovhlvaq-story.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-underpolicing-of-black-america-1422049080
     
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