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Joe Biden is now officially the 46th President of the United States of America

Should this thread be locked?

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Plasmaster09

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No matter what level you set, there will always be a point on the axis where you cross between plausible and implausible. In a vacuum you could theoretically start a business with no degree at all and make income far in excess of that number. On the flip side, you could also get a degree and make significantly less. We're interested in the latter situation, and *double* of what the government considers to be the bare minimum seems appropriate to me. £30K is no chump change - that's $42K and puts you in the middle class earnings range. It's certainly a lot of money for someone who, presumably, needed assistance in getting a degree in the first place.
Fair.
Now if only we could have this, a modified version, debt forgiveness, free public education exclusively a la Finland or literally anything implemented whatsoever to fix, improve or at least band-aid our shitty education system!
 

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Fair.
Now if only we could have this, a modified version, debt forgiveness, free public education exclusively a la Finland or literally anything implemented whatsoever to fix, improve or at least band-aid our shitty education system!
I honestly think that higher education is not something that each and every person needs - that's a lie universities and colleges sell people in order to hook them on the tuition hook. It's a pursuit one can choose, but not one that is absolutely necessary to lead a fulfilling life, not in the era of the Internet where anyone can learn anything at any time. If we're talking strictly about earnings, a lot of people find more luck learning a trade or engaging in entrepreneurship instead of spending what are objectively their best years learning things that may or may not be useful to them in the future. "Getting a degree" shouldn't be a de facto default part of one's career, it's entirely elective and based on the career one has chosen to pursue. As such, I don't lump it together with basic education every citizen receives free of charge, education that's considered to be necessary to function in society. I can see the allure, but I disagree when it comes to the supposed benefits. Should the government help in those pursuits? Perhaps, but not in a way that outright funds fool's errands. It's an investment, and as long as the investment operates under fair rules for both parties, it is fair.
 

Plasmaster09

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I honestly think that higher education is not something that each and every person needs - that's a lie universities and colleges sell people in order to hook them on the tuition hook. It's a pursuit one can choose, but not one that is absolutely necessary to lead a fulfilling life, not in the era of the Internet where anyone can learn anything at any time. If we're talking strictly about earnings, a lot of people find more luck learning a trade or engaging in entrepreneurship instead of spending what are objectively their best years learning things that may or may not be useful to them in the future. "Getting a degree" shouldn't be a de facto default part of one's career, it's entirely elective and based on the career one has chosen to pursue. As such, I don't lump it together with basic education every citizen receives free of charge, education that's considered to be necessary to function in society. I can see the allure, but I disagree when it comes to the supposed benefits. Should the government help in those pursuits? Perhaps, but not in a way that outright funds fool's errands. It's an investment, and as long as the investment operates under fair rules for both parties, it is fair.
Let's go down the plausible paths here.
Higher ed 'overvalued' and unnecessary: figure out some way to value it at what it's worth (this would be extraordinarily complicated, but you could always make it so that this only applies to the batshit-insane-expensive ones and thus incentivize them to just lower tuition to a reasonable amount to bypass the paperwork), then make some finite quantity * "whatever this system determines the education is worth in the end" the maximum they can charge. If higher ed isn't going to help people succeed to X degree (no pun intended), it certainly shouldn't be able to charge them much more than X equivalent amount.
Higher ed worthwhile: Make it affordable, for fucks sake.
If it's as important as I'd hazard it being (or rather, as I hazarded it being coming into this argument), it shouldn't be locked behind a paywall that would make EA blush. And if it isn't, then the current tuition fees at a lot of places are basically an outright scam.
 

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Let's go down the plausible paths here.
Higher ed 'overvalued' and unnecessary: figure out some way to value it at what it's worth (this would be extraordinarily complicated, but you could always make it so that this only applies to the batshit-insane-expensive ones and thus incentivize them to just lower tuition to a reasonable amount to bypass the paperwork), then make some finite quantity * "whatever this system determines the education is worth in the end" the maximum they can charge. If higher ed isn't going to help people succeed to X degree (no pun intended), it certainly shouldn't be able to charge them much more than X equivalent amount.
Higher ed worthwhile: Make it affordable, for fucks sake.
If it's as important as I'd hazard it being (or rather, as I hazarded it being coming into this argument), it shouldn't be locked behind a paywall that would make EA blush. And if it isn't, then the current tuition fees at a lot of places are basically an outright scam.
Out of all of that I'm only concerned with the value proposition. If the cost of university surpasses the probable gains from the investment then it is a stupid investment in America, regardless of the educational factor. Schools are charging too much without providing value in return - that's what needs to be addressed, in my opinion. Either tuition fees need to go down or the value of a degree needs to increase. As a side note, a value of a degree partially increases with scarcity. I have to reiterate, not everyone needs to have a degree, or even wants one in the first place - it's elective. Multifaceted problem right here, possibly going beyond the scope of the thread that is strictly dedicated to Biden, so I'll roll it back a bit to the proposal. He wants to forgive 10K's worth of debt per individual - that pays some of it, not all of it. Not necessarily a bad thing, but that incentivises schools to charge more - by precisely 10K. Give it 10 years and you'll end up where you've started. If I, as a service provider, knew that the government is going to foot X% of the bill regardless of results, I'm immediately raising prices. I might be an asshole for doing that, but that's free money sitting there on the table.
 

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Out of all of that I'm only concerned with the value proposition. If the cost of university surpasses the probable gains from the investment then it is a stupid investment in America, regardless of the educational factor. Schools are charging too much without providing value in return - that's what needs to be addressed, in my opinion. Either tuition fees need to go down or the value of a degree needs to increase. As a side note, a value if a degree partially increases with scarcity. I have to reiterate, not everyone needs to have a degree, or even wants one in the first place - it's elective. Multifaceted problem right here, possibly going beyond the scope of the thread that is strictly dedicated to Biden, so I'll roll it back a bit to the proposal. He wants to forgive 10K's worth of debt per individual - that pays some of it, not all of it. Not necessarily a bad thing, but that incentivises schools to charge more - by precisely 10K. Give it 10 years and you'll end up where you've started. If I, as a service provider, knew that the government is going to foot X% of the bill regardless of results, I'm immediately raising prices. I might be an asshole for doing that, but that's free money sitting there on the table.
yeah
tbh that last "I might be an asshole for that, but free money" describes almost every money-related problem in America: greedy fucks do bad thing, bad thing bad
capping things off (trying not to go off topic but I might as well at least amend what my two cents on this are before we move along), the solution here isn't really even absolute debt forgiveness, or even complete and utter college tuition coverage by the government
that's amazing, but it wouldn't solve the problem because colleges could just ramp up the prices to clinically insane amounts which is the very thing that got us into this mess
the solution is a mix of a student-loan limit like you mentioned the UK has, combined with the government actually capping the amount they're allowed to charge relative to what they provide (which is something that should probably be applied elsewhere as well- but a Biden thread definitely isn't the place for me to rant about the price of glasses)
anyway back to the main topic
heehoo old man is old and tries good thing but sometimes fails kinda sorta
 
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When you both are finished to go through ever more formal patterns of speech to address each other, you might notice the - "exeptionalism" that both of you are demanding, nowadays is found not in universities, but in summer schools, and international meetups or exchange programs, and thats also what international corporations are selecting for these days. You get in contact with them there. You get to talk. You get to be groomed.

You can see your entire university education as an entry cost towards that. And if you never have realized that, before your formal education is over - well, its your fault really. Why havent you informed yourselves on how your future employers select nowadays?

The 'value of your education' is this right now. At least in europe. The Bolognia system produced a bunch of young people struggling against insignificance - becoming more and more cut-throat and conformistic in the process.

When they are at the point, where they are finally at the paid industry events, or the preselectors - they are showing their finest facebook selves, promoting selfcensored behavior - even in base level political discussions, only to have a chance at being considered for an advanced career.

That all the system apparently was spun up to produce. So more competition at the academical level (you now get a degree for only investing two and a half years), and then preselecting for most ruthless, most conformist, most driven, most popular... and of course high IQ and willing to put it to work for international corporations of renown. The best people you usually also dont find in startup scenes. (Heck, you didnt even find Steve Jobs there...)


That parents were willing to pay more, and didnt tell their children what was required of them currently, hardly was the universities fault.


None of the current outcome is seen as a problem. Give the SJWs some low paying jobs, where they can tell the world, that each individuals self image is a problem, and that the corporation they work with has morals (for that plus in consumer loyalty), and all the 'higher degree' folks (but not really), have a place in life.

You brought more risk into the university education market, by not preselecting earlier. Was that the fault of universities?
 
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yeah
tbh that last "I might be an asshole for that, but free money" describes almost every money-related problem in America: greedy fucks do bad thing, bad thing bad
capping things off (trying not to go off topic but I might as well at least amend what my two cents on this are before we move along), the solution here isn't really even absolute debt forgiveness, or even complete and utter college tuition coverage by the government
that's amazing, but it wouldn't solve the problem because colleges could just ramp up the prices to clinically insane amounts which is the very thing that got us into this mess
the solution is a mix of a student-loan limit like you mentioned the UK has, combined with the government actually capping the amount they're allowed to charge relative to what they provide (which is something that should probably be applied elsewhere as well- but a Biden thread definitely isn't the place for me to rant about the price of glasses)
anyway back to the main topic
heehoo old man is old and tries good thing but sometimes fails kinda sorta
Is it greed? Your cost as a student just fell, I don't see why there shouldn't be an equal but opposite reaction on the other side. Nothing changes for me as the provider, I simply have an opportunity to maximise profit, and it would be foolish not to do that. If you see a dollar on the ground, you pick it up. That's not greed, that's an opportunity. I would criticise anyone for *not* picking it up, in fact - somebody's going to, make sure that somebody is you.
 

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Is it greed? Your cost as a student just fell, I don't see why there shouldn't be an equal but opposite reaction on the other side. Nothing changes for me as the provider, I simply have an opportunity to maximise profit, and it would be foolish not to do that. If you see a dollar on the ground, you pick it up. That's not greed, that's an opportunity. I would criticise anyone for *not* picking it up, in fact - somebody's going to, make sure that somebody is you.
Then you'd have no problem in the current higher education system. Its still preselecting for future job opportunities at those outside activities - with the most popular preselection indicator being 'being driven' and 'searching for opportunity'. All systems are set up to lap you up, as one such individual.

Its more the other ones that run into problems later down the line.

(People not making the cut, in our parents generation would get the higher administrational jobs, or job in politics, but those jobs are dying out. First because of 'lean state', now because of automation. So you have to invent SJW jobs at corporations for those folks. (Roughly ;)) Those jobs arent particularly well paying - but then - no jobs are. edit: Oh, and we need more climate change consultants! In all kinds of fields! Ever thought about trying out for one of those jobs, as someone with a higher (but not really) education?

Jobs in skilled crafts and trades are at high demand with a generation of boomers, that want to live the rest of their lives in relative luxury - those boomers are dying out, and they left fewer children. Who went through three crisis/recessions starting from when they first entered the job market. Somehow I dont see that much demand for artisanry in their lives.. Well despite, when you tell them, that there is always demand, for that - because those arent the jobs likely to be replaced by automation.

But Boomers still will hang around for another 20 years or so - and they are spending...)
 
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Is it greed? Your cost as a student just fell, I don't see why there shouldn't be an equal but opposite reaction on the other side. Nothing changes for me as the provider, I simply have an opportunity to maximise profit, and it would be foolish not to do that. If you see a dollar on the ground, you pick it up. That's not greed, that's an opportunity. I would criticise anyone for *not* picking it up, in fact - somebody's going to, make sure that somebody is you.
"Your cost as a student just fell, so I should raise it back up and create the same problem all over again because I'd rather keep a serious economic problem afloat than back down to something vaguely reasonable" is not only greed but basically what led to this in the first place, and that's why the solution I suggested is to prevent them from picking up (or should I say, re-stealing, since the dollar in question wasn't picked up off the ground as much as it was pickPOCKETED from a guy walking nearby) the dollar.
 
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"Your cost as a student just fell, so I should raise it back up and create the same problem all over again because I'd rather keep a serious economic problem afloat than back down to something vaguely reasonable" is not only greed but basically what led to this in the first place, and that's why the solution I suggested is to prevent them from picking up (or should I say, re-stealing, since the dollar in question wasn't picked up off the ground as much as it was pickPOCKETED from a guy walking nearby) the dollar.
There is zero reason not to raise your price if you know your customer can afford it. Greed is a selfish desire to accumulate, business is exchanging goods or services for money. If customers have a bag of free money all of a sudden, it makes perfect sense to charge more, particularly if the free money drove demand up (which it likely did) while your supply remained the same. You now have an army of students with 10K that they didn't have before and want to spend it - it's your raison d'etre to give them the opportunity to spend it.
 
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There is zero reason not to raise your price if you know your customer can afford it. Greed is a selfish desire to accumulate, business is exchanging goods or services for money. If customers have a bag of free money all of a sudden, it makes perfect sense to charge more, particularly if the free money drove demand up (which it likely did) while your supply remained the same. You now have an army of students with 10K that they didn't have before and want to spend it - it's your raison d'etre to give them the opportunity to spend it.
That is a big part of economics, limited resources, printing more money isn't going to magically make more good and services available. With more money at the customers disposal and limited resources available, customers will use that extra money to try to outbid each other and to try to obtain that limited resource over the other person.

So prices go up because people pay for those prices hoping to obtain that item in limited stock, and with more money available at their disposal they can easily pay for those higher prices. Services are also a limited resource. A person time and education is a limited resource.
 
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Plasmaster09

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There is zero reason not to raise your price if you know your customer can afford it. Greed is a selfish desire to accumulate, business is exchanging goods or services for money. If customers have a bag of free money all of a sudden, it makes perfect sense to charge more, particularly if the free money drove demand up (which it likely did) while your supply remained the same. You now have an army of students with 10K that they didn't have before and want to spend it - it's your raison d'etre to give them the opportunity to spend it.
Either way... the fact that they're almost definitely going to do exactly this (because they don't realize that them charging as much as they do is the problem and that they can't avoid it by charging MORE, or they're so actually greedy as to willfully ignore it) is why the solution is to make it so that they legally can't do so.
 
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Either way... the fact that they're almost definitely going to do exactly this (because they don't realize that them charging as much as they do is the problem and that they can't avoid it by charging MORE, or they're so actually greedy as to willfully ignore it) is why the solution is to make it so that they legally can't do so.
I don't see how draconian price and wage controls are somehow going to allow them to expand in order to meet demand without raising cost. You have an opportunity to get the point of view of someone quite familiar with methods of separating people from their money in consensual transactions, so I'll give you my take. Facing government-imposed tuition controls, I would immediately raise ancillary costs. I don't have to charge you more for the service, I can charge *a little bit more* for all the add-ons, like a room on campus or other optional fees. *Something* has to generate revenue to account for new students who suddenly appeared once they were given a promise of 10K they won't have to pay, money that they didn't have before that now enables them to pursue a degree they otherwise wouldn't pursue. It's just the way it is. From where I'm sitting, cost of higher education is, in large part, caused by handing out student loans willy-nilly. It does increase the universality, but it decreases value and increases cost. All things in balance, like most things in nature. The alternative to all that are public universities wherein you *can* set prices, but those too need to compete for educators whom you have to pay a competitive wage, otherwise they'll just teach in the private sector. If you want to handle this problem, you have to firmly grasp the valve that's spitting out free money and make sure it doesn't spit out *more* in response to debt forgiveness. Without increased loans you don't have an increased amount of money to spend. The institution will always charge as much as it can feasibly charge, you have to control that number.
 
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Plasmaster09

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I don't see how draconian price and wage controls are somehow going to allow them to expand in order to meet demand without raising cost. You have an opportunity to get the point of view of someone quite familiar with methods of separating people from their money in consensual transactions, so I'll give you my take. Facing government-imposed tuition controls, I would immediately raise ancillary costs. I don't have to charge you more for the service, I can charge *a little bit more* for all the add-ons, like a room on campus or other optional fees. *Something* has to generate revenue to account for new students who suddenly appeared once they were given a promise of 10K they won't have to pay, money that they didn't have before that now enables them to pursue a degree they otherwise wouldn't pursue. It's just the way it is. From where I'm sitting, cost of higher education is, in large part, caused by handing out student loans willy-nilly. If does increase the universality, but it decreases value and increases cost. All things in balance, like most things in nature. The alternative to all that are public universities wherein you *can* set prices, but those too need to compete for educators whom you have to pay a competitive wage, otherwise they'll just teach in the private sector.
Can't there be some balance, though?
"Max fees (probably accounting for the sidestepping with ancillary costs, because that ruins the point) are X proportional to Y, and the government covers Z (Z being either a flat amount or a percentage, as the need may be) of it."
Basically balance the thing that caused the problem but could also help to solve it (by patching up its weakness) with the thing that could be sidestepped (with the same patch-up).
 
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Can't there be some balance, though?
"Max fees (probably accounting for the sidestepping with ancillary costs, because that ruins the point) are X proportional to Y, and the government covers Z (Z being either a flat amount or a percentage, as the need may be) of it."
Basically balance the thing that caused the problem but could also help to solve it (by patching up its weakness) with the thing that could be sidestepped (with the same patch-up).
I've added a possible remedy in an edit. If you ensure that the bank can't loan out 10K more based on the 10K forgiveness, you limit the disposable income of the student and prevent an overcharge based on surplus capital. You're still forgiving 10K, but the student has the same amount in-hand that's disposable, anything beyond that is their personal money which they will naturally be less keen on spending.
 
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Plasmaster09

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I've added a possible remedy in an edit. If you ensure that the bank can't loan out 10K more based on the 10K forgiveness, you limit the disposable income of the student and prevent an overcharge based on surplus capital. You're still forgiving 10K, but the student has the same amount in-hand that's disposable, anything beyond that is their personal money which they will naturally be less keen on spending.
...Huh, I hadn't thought of that.
Then again, I'm a teenager, not an economist, businessman or anything remotely finance-or-economy-related, so I'm not exactly surprised there's a likely-better and painfully-obvious solution I'd missed.
Stopping the issue of disgusting student loan debts... by literally just limiting how much they're allowed to loan. Ironically, wouldn't this also solve the other part of the problem since the institutions are now incentivized to lower fees down to a loanable amount? If so (and arguably even if not, because it still generally solves the issue of student loans so large they're practically some kind of eldritch pact), that's a great idea!
 
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...Huh, I hadn't thought of that.
Then again, I'm a teenager, not an economist, businessman or anything remotely finance-or-economy-related, so I'm not exactly surprised there's a likely-better and painfully-obvious solution I'd missed.
Stopping the issue of disgusting student loan debts... by literally just limiting how much they're allowed to loan. Ironically, wouldn't this also solve the other part of the problem since the institutions are now incentivized to lower fees down to a loanable amount? If so (and arguably even if not, because it still generally solves the issue of student loans so large they're practically some kind of eldritch pact), that's a great idea!
The problem would need a multi-pronged approach, but it logically makes sense to me. A business can only charge you what you're willing to spend - the cap they face is however much money you have versus how much you want what they offer. If you make loans more universal while reducing their dollar size, universities would have to adjust pricing because they want that money, and they want to fill seats in. There are two possible outcomes - the prices go down and they remain packed *or* the prices go up and they become *more* elitist by only catering to the extremely wealthy. The former is easier because you have more students with more bags, the latter is harder because you have fewer extremely wealthy individuals who can pay out of pocket, but you can cut other costs. No way to tell how it'd go, it depends on the administrators and how committed they are to their mission of educating the public. There are ethical administrators, there are unethical administrators.
 
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The problem would need a multi-pronged approach, but it logically makes sense to me. A business can only charge you what you're willing to spend - the cap they face is however much money you have versus how much you want what they offer. If you make loans more universal while reducing their dollar size, universities would have to adjust pricing because they want that money, and they want to fill seats in. There are two possible outcomes - the prices go down and they remain packed *or* the prices go up and they become *more* elitist by only catering to the extremely wealthy. The former is easier because you have more students with more bags, the latter is harder because you have fewer extremely wealthy individuals who can pay out of pocket, but you can cut other costs. No way to tell how it'd go, it depends on the administrators and how committed they are to their mission of educating the public. There are ethical administrators, there are unethical administrators.
Maybe avoid the "elitism route" by also implementing a proportional cap on fees?
Like:
Maximum loan amount is X
Maximum fee is A*X (with A being a number above 1, probably below 2 but that might be too low idk)
Maximum fees for [various standard additional accommodations] are B*X, C*X, etc. with B, C, etc. being, of course, far, far smaller than A
Therefore, the overall absolute maximum they can charge is (A + B + C...)*X
Alternatively, to avoid the hassle of evaluating every single accommodation, have three proportionals instead. X is still the max loan, A*X is still the max fee, but B*X is the max that all the extras combined can cost and C*X is the max that any individual extra can cost.
A bit convoluted, but I think (with the tiny fraction of brain cells that actively care about this kind of $tuff) that this would cover the loopholes...?
 
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Just some "armed insurrection" footage.



If you don't want to watch this because google is biased, I wouldn't blame you.
 
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Just some "armed insurrection" footage.



If you don't want to watch this because google is biased, I wouldn't blame you.

literally all that proves is that the capitol police are corrupt and/or complicit in the riot
of course they didn't use violence against the guards that would proceed to casually let them in
they didn't need to
 
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    the first manga I bought, was Psychic Academy, when I was like 12?
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    That was good 2000s ecchi
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    Great plot too
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    psychic academy. lol. it was meh even back then when i bought volume 1. also same author also made one of the manga adaptions of Escaflowne.
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    Pfffft!
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    I have all the volumes.
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    btw do u have discord?
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    last tv anime i remember with nipples i personally watched was Senran Kagura
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    yeah I do
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    I mostly read, haven't watched much, but I do keep my cunchyroll sub.
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    Found out one of my fave animes got an adaptation this season

    the other day lol
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    Yuusha ga Shi
    nda
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    crynchyrolls is cancer, especially with the censorship they do like they did with Oshimai
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    can u post your discord here or at dm?
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    No idea
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    it's my username
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    and number?
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    it needs the number?
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    okey dokey. i ve sent u friend request.
  • Vetusomaru @ Vetusomaru:
    i have same username with here
  • Skelletonike @ Skelletonike:
    alright, accepted
    +1
    Skelletonike @ Skelletonike: alright, accepted +1