Jeffery Epstein indicted on charges of child sex trafficking

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by Xzi, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. D34DL1N3R

    D34DL1N3R Nephilim

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    Too tired to write about everything that's wrong with that. I'll get back to you on it though for sure. ;)
     
  2. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Here are some relative pointers for the conspiracy theories around his death.

    On the german (far) left, there is a similar mythos people like to keep alive today - where the members of a left wing german terror cell in the seventies were found hanged, or shot to death in their prison cells - which one of the survivers claimed were extrajudicial killings, which the government denied. Later another member of the cell stated, that killing themselves, and then blaming it on the government would have been a last stand information warfare strategy, that was discussed by the terror group internally. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammheim_Prison )

    There is a second incident also mythified by the german far left, where a bombing investigation with political ties was not finished to everyones satisfaction. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_bombing )

    State agencies in the past are confirmed having run criminal networks (France in Vietnam), or withholding critical correspondence from the acting president (CIA pre vietnam war involvement).

    So what most conspiracy theories are referencing here is "state involvement", or "state agency involvement".

    Never take those theories at face value - they never are "for sure what happened" but there have been strange coincidences, that point at certain 'potentials', in countries all over the world in the past.

    So when stuff like "people familiar with the institution and acting employees of the prison voiced, that it would be extremely not the norm that Epstein would be taken off of suicide watch" happens - everyone who has dabbled in some of those conspiracy theories, all of a sudden has a one track mind. ;)

    Just know, that all of it is purely speculation - and that is all that it ever will be. (Even with freedom of information requests after 50 years, I think there is no precedent for stuff like this ever 'leaking' or surfacing.) People are only acting on rumors here.

    Another urban legend revolves about the bounding principal of 'a common secret' that several people of a group have an incentive in not having leak out. (Mutually ensured destruction principal.) Which kind of creates tight bonds.

    This also plays into the principal of secret agencies dealing in Kompromat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kompromat) at which point we are fully in a John le Carré spy novel, and hopefully all recognize, that all of this is purely speculative.

    :)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:00 AM
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  3. dAVID_

    dAVID_ Carpinter's Apprentice

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    According to Wikipedia, he wasn't in suicide watch but still had to be checked over every 30 minutes. As it turns out, that wasn't the case, which gave him a window to commit suicide.
     
  4. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Yes, guards were asleep for three hours, then tried to cover that up by forging the reports. Thats the current "what happened".

    Suidice watch was lifted after a psychological evaluation, within one week after hist first suicide attempt.

    Checkins every 30 min arent suicide watch. :) (That is 24/7 monitoring.)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 14, 2019 at 5:23 PM
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  5. Glyptofane

    Glyptofane Death Dealer

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    Glad to see everyone is united on this suicide story being a crock of shit. Only The New York Slimes seems to be pushing for everyone to accept the narrative to the point of basically calling conspiracy theorists terrorists. The suicide itself is as much a conspiracy theory as the other alternatives as there is no real proof and it's still the less believable one at that. This weasel was either murdered or swooped up and shipped to Israel.
     
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  6. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Too much emotion, too much certainty. I'm in here to actually point at the trappings of conspiracy theories in general. Without making them taboo to think about, because it is PC. :)

    They are not the 'logical conclusion', they are not 'obviously what happened', they are thought excercises that sometimes are fun to think about, and sometimes are just plain stupid. :)

    If you let them take over your "believes of the world" you ostracized yourself (there have been counterculture personalities (singers, comedians) who peddled some of the more outrageous ones, and the only thing that happened was that people started, to look at them funny.. ;) ). So yes, its "edgy and exciting" to think about that stuff a little differently - but in the end, we all just do it for the kicks.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:11 PM
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  7. Jiehfeng

    Jiehfeng Netti Netti

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    I just found out, so forgive me if some of you already knew:

    HWzz9kK.

    (fact checked)
     
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  8. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    I'd recommend double the amount of tinfoil on that one. Just to be safe. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 15, 2019 at 10:42 PM
  9. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Oh, btw. this story has come out through freedom of information requests. :)

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/...er-king-jr-and-dangers-unchecked-surveillance

    In case you dind't know. :)

    And remember, we are only doing this for the kicks. No certainty to be had here. Keep your sanity. :)

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    More context:

    On Baden:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/13/michael-baden-jeffrey-epstein-autopsy/

    He even stars in some HBO show.. ;)


    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    Ah. Reading debunks this one.

    src: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/13/michael-baden-jeffrey-epstein-autopsy/

    So he only whitnessed it (didn't oversee) and did so as part of the deceaseds legal team.

    Epsteins legal team, should have no hightened interest in masking the cause of his death.

    (How would that strange conspiracy theory go? ;) )

    Also he was only a professional witness in the autopsy.
    Also with 20.000 cases under his helm, there are bound to be a few 'special ones' amongst them.

    So guys - next time, more reading before posting memes. :)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 15, 2019 at 11:35 PM
  10. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Here I made you your own contingency conspiracy theory, that makes it work again. ;)

    Because the Epstein estate is now sued by alleged victims as well, they needed to make sure that the autopsy result of their guy is in line with the 'masked' autopsy result of the state. And they still had to send their own guy - because otherwise it would have seemed suspicious, and...

    - ok, listen - its not the best one of these, but it still works.. ;)

    Also notice, that the meme used the phrase "to watch over" which turns out not to be strictly true. So... Whats the best conspiracy theory here? Russian troll army made the meme?

    :)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 15, 2019 at 11:28 PM
  11. Jiehfeng

    Jiehfeng Netti Netti

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    Well I don't have time to check all of that, but I get the point here I think. In any case, fact is that he was involved in the most infamous autopsies, and now this. And if there is some underhanded stuff going on here, the last thing you'd trust is the media.
     
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  12. Glyptofane

    Glyptofane Death Dealer

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    I find this highly suspicious as well, but there are a couple points worth mentioning. I didn't realize this was the guy behind the autopsy originally, but a few days ago he was saying it was "likely suicide", but wouldn't yet call it as the definitive cause of death. Yesterday we learned that the autopsy allegedly states that Epstein had broken bones in his neck. It takes a serious gallows level hanging to cause this. Most self hangings end in death through asphyxiation, since there's just not enough force to break the neck.
    This statement was made before the neck bones revelation, but what it means now is that he broke his neck by leaning forward with a paper sheet wrapped around his neck. This is just too stupid to even entertain.
     
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  13. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Neh, not how that goes.

    The point is, can you make a congruent (good ;) ) conspiracy theory out of that factoid - combined with the others. And the answer is - no.

    As someone that had helmed 20.000 autopsies in the past - there is a numbers thing, that there are likely some pretty interesting ones amongst them. First autopsies usually are only insisted on in cases where people arent sure what a person might have died from - so if you get 20.000 of them under your helm in your lifetime - and you are good at it, chance are that you'll see some pretty strange ones in your lifetime... ;)

    Because MLK and JFK are not in a direct connection to our Epstein-boy here, what happens here very likely is 'chance clustering'.
    (Whats interesting about his life? Oh, he met those interesting people... (- on his job))

    It still would be juicy - for a conspiracy theory, if he would have been the guy that kind of makes the final call in terms of 'cause of death' - but here he isnt.

    He is just the 'independent' opinion for the defense, who very likely has chosen him, because he's a 'celebrity pathologist' (Appartently thats a thing.. ;) Call it high profile, but he's gone for celebrity appeal in the past (HBO show), so... ;) ).

    So any good conspiracy theory ends here.

    Media usually isn't lying on stuff like "who employed him (defense)", or "how many cases he's given an opinion on" over his career. Those are checkable facts. So anyone can pick up a telephone and doublecheck. If as media you'd lie, on those - your reputation as a paper (FOX apparently operates on a different ruleset), would be out of the window in no time.

    Also if everyone lies on everything.. What are we interested in conspiracy theories for? ;) No - the juicy ones, are those - where there aren't necessarily better explanations for stuff out there. :)

    If something is just an 'odd coincidence' with no likely hidden nefarious purpose - thats not fun. :)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:11 PM
  14. Jiehfeng

    Jiehfeng Netti Netti

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    "Celebrity Pathologist" is just one reason among many that could be behind why he was used. All these are possibilities that are not worth arguing on, at least for me. There can be many things we don't know beside common knowledge here, so I'll personally leave it at that, I hope someone else will entertain your same reasoning. :)
     
  15. Viri

    Viri GBAtemp Addict

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  16. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    But its a good enough reason. :) (Probability wise. And because the guy turned out not to be the pathologist in charge.)

    It would be interesting to find out though, how often the 'top level pathologist' in a department is used for 'the high profile cases' probably often. (If you are the best heart surgeant in New York, kind of thing... :) ), and how often they have 'changed' over lets say three decades.

    Just for the probability assessment.

    Also in this case the conspiracy theory would probably argue, that they used a "known and trusted guy" - but then the prison guards sleeping in question had one trainee amongst them - so, there the conspiracy theory would probably say - that those where easily payed off.. :)

    And thats the flexibility of those theories. ;)

    The fun ones are still those, where there is almost no other plausible explanation, and they still remain odd - and strangely congruent looking. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:47 PM
  17. Youkai

    Youkai Demon

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    Well it seems there are much much more pedophile people than you would assume ...
    But as bad as it might be, some "kids" with 14 actually look like they are 18+ especially when they use makeup and such.

    I wouldn't offer them money but if a 14 years old girl who looks really good come to me I also wouldn't say no (probably) ...


    I know ppl will hate me but if the girls accepted the money and were not "forced" to do it the only crime would be that they are underage but they kinda did it out of their own free will it seems so I for one don't see much of a problem here.
     
  18. Jiehfeng

    Jiehfeng Netti Netti

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    After the age of 14, humans are biologically mature enough for sex and it is also the point where intelligence stops growing, and from there it's just knowledge/experience. And similar to what you said, I notice a lot of the new generation, especially girls look older than most old women lol.

    So anything done from that point is only wrong in terms of legality I think. A lot of teenagers from that age also do it with others. These are just the facts, I didn't put much thought into it further, but I would be curious to know from others what is morally or in any way wrong for consensual sex from that point.
     
    Last edited by Jiehfeng, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:55 PM
  19. IncredulousP

    IncredulousP GBAtemp Regular

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    I think the key point is the concept of consent and determining a hard line at which point it is reasonable to assume that someone has matured enough to be of sound body and mind, to give permission with full knowledge of any repercussions. Not only is this line contentious, but the definition of consent is as well; there are many different ages in different states/countries considered legal age of consent.

    Ideally, it is not about being attracted to the appropriate shape/size of someone, rather, it is about avoiding taking advantage of someone's inability to fully reason and understand the consequences of their actions, in addition to ensuring that all parties are equipped mentally and emotionally to handle such actions.
     
    Last edited by IncredulousP, Aug 16, 2019 at 3:00 PM
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  20. Jiehfeng

    Jiehfeng Netti Netti

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    I guess it comes down to that. While intelligence does stop growing at around 14, maturity can take any length of time. Personally I matured for the most part at around 13-14, while most kids my age remained the same till around 17 or so. (this is basic mental maturity, not the kind that has even adults being immature)

    So yeah, it's basically best to just not go there. If you couldn't help yourself then your desires are pretty much out of control.
     
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