i'm learning japanese, sharing what i'm learning!

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

solarsaturn9

Guest
test84 said:
I was solving an exercise from Genki and I got a problem with Katakana:
how do you write these in Katakana: (I was going to write my name)
Ai
Di
Gh
Dr
with katakana? (seperately)

Ai = ??
for Di it depends on the pronunciation of the word it is being used in
(ex: Dai sound as in Diagonal, or Di as in Digital, etc... )
for the Dee sound = ??
for Gh it depends on the pronunciation of the word it is being used in
(ex: ghost, and ghastly would be written using different Katakana, ???? and ????? )
for the Dr sound it depends as well
(ex: Drain and Drama.... ???? and ??? )
in general for Dr it would be ? followed by an R/L sounding katakana ( ????????? )

You cant really write out two letters and assign them katakana because it depends on what the context of the letters. Katakana is an alphabet to either emphasize words originally from the Japanese language or to write foreign loan words like ????? ( arubaito ) which means a part time job coming from the German word Arbeiter ( ? not sure how to spell the German word )
 

Bob Evil

The Department of Home-Made Insecurity
Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,783
Trophies
0
Age
50
Location
Out of the corner of your eye
Website
Visit site
XP
81
Country
solarsaturn9 said:
You cant really write out two letters and assign them katakana because it depends on what the context of the letters. Katakana is an alphabet to either emphasize words originally from the Japanese language or to write foreign loan words like ????? ( arubaito ) which means a part time job coming from the German word Arbeiter ( ? not sure how to spell the German word )

I tried to tell him that
wink.gif
 

kikuchiyo

大阪に生まれた男
Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Messages
688
Trophies
0
Age
38
Location
USA
Website
coin-battle.com
XP
422
Country
United States
thebobevil said:
solarsaturn9 said:
You cant really write out two letters and assign them katakana because it depends on what the context of the letters. Katakana is an alphabet to either emphasize words originally from the Japanese language or to write foreign loan words like ????? ( arubaito ) which means a part time job coming from the German word Arbeiter ( ? not sure how to spell the German word )

I tried to tell him that
wink.gif

Well, that said there are two footnotes:
A) It's English romaji that's irregular, not katakana (that was unclear from the posts). Katakana is super regular (that's why, as I said elsewhere, it's easier for me to read katakana Bangla as opposed to romanized Bangla).

B) If you live here, katakana is for a lot of different reasons; some people like signing their names in katakana because it's the easiest to write (an ex was like this). It is often used in novels and mail to not to emphasize, but to break up would otherwise be a long string of hiragana.
 
S

solarsaturn9

Guest
kikuchiyo said:
thebobevil said:
solarsaturn9 said:
You cant really write out two letters and assign them katakana because it depends on what the context of the letters. Katakana is an alphabet to either emphasize words originally from the Japanese language or to write foreign loan words like ????? ( arubaito ) which means a part time job coming from the German word Arbeiter ( ? not sure how to spell the German word )

I tried to tell him that
wink.gif

Well, that said there are two footnotes:
A) It's English romaji that's irregular, not katakana (that was unclear from the posts). Katakana is super regular (that's why, as I said elsewhere, it's easier for me to read katakana Bangla as opposed to romanized Bangla).

B) If you live here, katakana is for a lot of different reasons; some people like signing their names in katakana because it's the easiest to write (an ex was like this). It is often used in novels and mail to not to emphasize, but to break up would otherwise be a long string of hiragana.

I can dig that. Katakana for names is also easier to read because sometimes handwriting + kanji = chicken scratch..... sometimes even native speakers have a hard time reading chicken scratch kanji =P
 

Unchi-san

Unchi on a stick! yay~
Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
526
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
49
Country
United States
I can dig that. Katakana for names is also easier to read because sometimes handwriting + kanji = chicken scratch..... sometimes even native speakers have a hard time reading chicken scratch kanji =P
[/quote]

I totally understand. I can't read my mom's writing alot of the time. I prefer big, bubbly hiragana and kanji rather than "caligraphy"-looking words.
 

Jarvik7

Member
Newcomer
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
24
Trophies
0
XP
226
Country
Canada
Raisingod said:
The reason they picked tsu was that there is no partical that you write as tsu.

Basicly the reason for its exsitense was that the japanese realized that in a syllabary system you cant write long consonants and since japanese use it there was a need to add this to the writing language , this need only arrouse as katakana(as it was intreduced as an official writing system before hiragana { used by females only at that time}) became an official writing system . The problem was that by the time that katakana was considered an official writing language the common solution was to write a tsu to indicate a long consonants fallows .

It probably would have been different if it was up to the administration to decide what to use to indicate that.


That's some nice reasoning, but it's wrong. It was written as a ? and later as ? because the ? sound is what normally triggers a geminate in compound words. Take for example these:

?? ????????=??????? (this also undergoes ??)
????????????
???????????????????

The premodern writers were simply writing out the separate ???? for each ?? with the ?? shorthand. The shrinking of it to ? is a much later development.

I haven't taken the time to search my ???? but I have an inkling that ?? lacks geminate sounds altogether and that they are a carryover from Chinese. Any/most exceptions to the above are probably a result of borrowing/coining after the use of ? was established as general practice for geminates. There are many other examples of pre-modern ?? usage not being phonetic by sticking very closely to the grammar. Japanese grammar actually became less logical (in that much was hidden) due to the ???? & post-WWII reformations that made reading itself simpler.

Keep in mind that Japanese never had an "official standard" of any sort until the late 19th century. The closest thing would be writing in classical Chinese, which was what was used for official documents of state for the majority of Japan's history. Writing in the vernacular (aka Japanese) was the reserve of bored aristocratic women and poets up until the ????, at which point some ?? started writing fiction. The writing of Japanese varied widely person to person (see "hentaigana" on wikipedia or similar for one example).
 

Raisingod

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
302
Trophies
0
Age
34
XP
222
Country
Iceland
Jarvik7 said:
Raisingod said:
The reason they picked tsu was that there is no partical that you write as tsu.

Basicly the reason for its exsitense was that the japanese realized that in a syllabary system you cant write long consonants and since japanese use it there was a need to add this to the writing language , this need only arrouse as katakana(as it was intreduced as an official writing system before hiragana { used by females only at that time}) became an official writing system . The problem was that by the time that katakana was considered an official writing language the common solution was to write a tsu to indicate a long consonants fallows .

It probably would have been different if it was up to the administration to decide what to use to indicate that.


That's some nice reasoning, but it's wrong. It was written as a ? and later as ? because the ? sound is what normally triggers a geminate in compound words. Take for example these:

?? ????????=??????? (this also undergoes ??)
????????????
???????????????????

The premodern writers were simply writing out the separate ???? for each ?? with the ?? shorthand. The shrinking of it to ? is a much later development.

I haven't taken the time to search my ???? but I have an inkling that ?? lacks geminate sounds altogether and that they are a carryover from Chinese. Any/most exceptions to the above are probably a result of borrowing/coining after the use of ? was established as general practice for geminates. There are many other examples of pre-modern ?? usage not being phonetic by sticking very closely to the grammar. Japanese grammar actually became less logical (in that much was hidden) due to the ???? & post-WWII reformations that made reading itself simpler.

Keep in mind that Japanese never had an "official standard" of any sort until the late 19th century. The closest thing would be writing in classical Chinese, which was what was used for official documents of state for the majority of Japan's history. Writing in the vernacular (aka Japanese) was the reserve of bored aristocratic women and poets up until the ????, at which point some ?? started writing fiction. The writing of Japanese varied widely person to person (see "hentaigana" on wikipedia or similar for one example).

My old japanese teacher reasoning not mine but thanks for the explantion.
 

Helix94

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
64
Trophies
0
XP
62
Country
United States
How do you guys type in these characters? Is there some type of English AND Japanese keyboard?
 

Cermage

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
1,701
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
275
Country
Helix94 said:
How do you guys type in these characters? Is there some type of English AND Japanese keyboard?

as far as i know, the japanese use a keyboard with the english lettering as well
tongue.gif
for windows you can install the japanese language pack which will allow you to write out the romaji in word or another program and it will change it into characters as you type it.
 

Digeman

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
759
Trophies
0
Age
32
XP
544
Country
Vidboy10 said:
A person from Iran wants to learn Japanese?
What a small world.
Because people from Iran can't have the same interest as other people around the world right? Their only interest should be bellydancing yea?
smile.gif


(note the sarcasm)
 

Vidboy10

Tsardom
Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
2,617
Trophies
0
Age
25
Location
Vancouver, B.C
Website
Visit site
XP
870
Country
Canada
Digeman said:
Vidboy10 said:
A person from Iran wants to learn Japanese?
What a small world.
Because people from Iran can't have the same interest as other people around the world right?
They can.
Just I find it awkward how somebody in the middle east could Like japan.
And having a member from Iran on the Temp is kinda awkward when you think about it.
 

warbird

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
289
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
94
Country
Jarvik7 said:
I haven't taken the time to search my ???? but I have an inkling that ?? lacks geminate sounds altogether and that they are a carryover from Chinese. Any/most exceptions to the above are probably a result of borrowing/coining after the use of ? was established as general practice for geminates. There are many other examples of pre-modern ?? usage not being phonetic by sticking very closely to the grammar. Japanese grammar actually became less logical (in that much was hidden) due to the ???? & post-WWII reformations that made reading itself simpler.

Never studies classical japanese, but I'm pretty sure sure gemination existed long before modern times in Japanese. E.g. when conjugating verbs, like kiru -> kitta. Unless I'm misunderstanding you..
 

iPikachu

C3's personal flamebot and fail artist
Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
2,060
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
100
Country
Senegal
topic is yours?
QUOTE said:
Just I find it awkward how somebody in the middle east could Like japan.
And having a member from Iran on the Temp is kinda awkward when you think about it.
how would it be awkward?
 

OmerMe

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
491
Trophies
0
Age
29
Website
Visit site
XP
381
Country
Iceland
iPikachu said:
topic is yours?
QUOTE said:
Just I find it awkward how somebody in the middle east could Like japan.
And having a member from Iran on the Temp is kinda awkward when you think about it.
how would it be awkward?
Haven't you heard? Everyone in the middle east live in the desert, rides on a camel, lives in a tent and does nothing but smoke and trade women.

Or whatever people think about the middle east.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
    KenniesNewName @ KenniesNewName: Need a psu and Wii mote those still run $20