1. Silent_Gunner

    Silent_Gunner Lost Wanderer Who Sees No Evil
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,252
    Country:
    United States


    This is the scariest part.
     
  2. DANTENDO

    DANTENDO I Won year sub Edge mag 1996 hot topic digitiser
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,643
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Thank the lord for consoles
     
  3. HRudyPlayZ

    HRudyPlayZ The panda god that does everything
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    269
    Country:
    France
    It's not really because peoples can't cheat, i would be fine with a server-side anticheat if it's done well... Or even better, custom servers being back do you can play the game without cheaters.

    The real problems are that client-side anticheats (EasyAntiCheat, Denuvo, BattlEye, Vanguard) are:
    - Useless and eazily bypassable if you know how (ex: Vanguard, EAC, BE)
    - Unsecure, especially since they implement their crap in Ring 0, which means at the same level of Windows pretty much, so if there's one exploit found, an hacker could do anything they w1nt dith your system.
    - Rootkits, they install themselves on Ring0, secretly and most of rhe times, don't do any good for the player.
    - Can invade your privacy.
    - Can affect your performance (yep, some AnriCheats do use a lot of CPU cycles or RAM)
    - Hard to uninstall without bruteforcing them. (Meaning, Windows Safe Mode and using a batch script to bypass the file's permissions and delete them.)
    - Unstable, lots of crashes as a simple bug in Ring0 could lead to a BSoD.

    They should just use server-side anticheats, you cannot temper with them, can detect more efficiently, and most importantly, don't do any harm to the computers.
    They should also bring community servers in games back, so if there's hackers, you could find a server without ones, with active moderation or even a custom-made anticheat.

    I would still prefer to see cheaters (which are still there anyways as the anti-cheat are clientside) instead of a rootkit in my computer.
     
    Memoir, Ryccardo and CrossOut like this.
  4. Arras

    Arras GBAtemp Guru
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2010
    Messages:
    6,255
    Country:
    Netherlands
    • Anticheats are kernel mode and have been for over 10 years because the good cheats are as well, and it's near impossible to detect them without.
    • Regular non-kernel programs can do all of the data stealing and other scary stuff that people are worried about anticheats doing.
    • It just shows up in programs & features and you can uninstall it like any other program.
    • Serverside anticheat is great in principle, but it just doesn't work well for all genres of games. Especially for first person shooters, where you absolutely need instant responses, low latency, and it's near impossible for the server to tell whether it's a player or a bot that looks like a player aiming.
    • The entire point of anticheats is to prevent people from messing with the game, so they have some of the most incentive to fix vulnerabilities out of any type of software developer. A lot more than the chinese manufacturers of most people's mouse drivers or whatever, anyway. Plus has there ever been a known anticheat that actually ran into those issues? DRM is not an anticheat.
    • As for them being useless, going to need a citation on that besides "trust me they don't work". Preferably not from cheat manufacturers either since they stand to gain a lot by making people believe anticheat is useless - it makes their job easier.

      I do agree there should be an option not to use it if you don't care about multiplayer and to disable the multiplayer functionality instead though - the only reason that isn't there is probably because management figured it wasn't worth it.
     
    medoli900 likes this.
  5. CORE

    CORE 3:16
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,007
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    If only Windows done the same regarding Privacy and Security.
     
    Silent_Gunner likes this.
  6. HRudyPlayZ

    HRudyPlayZ The panda god that does everything
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    269
    Country:
    France
    - Yep, though a good server anticheat would be enough for most of the cases, or in the worst scenario, have a small anticheat on client to detect programs and weird behaviour (custom one, only active in multiplayer) that communicates with a server one for the heavier testing parts.

    - They can, but unless they are rootkits aswell, they won't be able to access the whole system.
    - False. You can partially uninstall them but they still leave a lot of traces and not everything is removed. (For example, when i removed EAC from my PC i've had to run a custom script or else the anticheat would prevent Windows from messing around... Lots of Rust players would know).

    - It can work if your anticheat actually detects behaviour instead of programs. Another option would be to couple that with a vote kick feature, so even if the anticheat isn't very efficient, you could always just kick hackers instantly. Again, custom community servers would be a great alternative to a bad anticheat.

    - Kind off... a zero-day is so quick to discover though... I know that EasyAntiCheat had been compromised at some point, although it didn't do any hurt as at the time it didn't have any permissions to screw your system too badly...

    - They don't work. But you don't have to trust my words for it, take a look at the number of hackers on something like Fortnite, Valorant, Rust... I can pretty much say that if you know how, you can easily bypass those ones, i can tell as i did it myself on Rust and when i tested Fortnite (pretty bad game btw), i did the same, although it wasn't because of hacks, you would need to be pretty bad to need those, just to not have a stupid driver mess with my system. I can't know for sure about others (except Vanguard as a lot of cheaters are coming by), but i know that, by the nature of the anti-cheat, as it is client and not server and as you can edit any file you want on a PC, there will always be a way to bypass it, period.
    This is the same for DRMs anyways, as unless a newer version got released, most games can be cracked under 1 week after release.
     
  7. Arras

    Arras GBAtemp Guru
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2010
    Messages:
    6,255
    Country:
    Netherlands
    After looking it up out of curiousity, it seems like Valorant was detecting cheaters but wasn't properly banning them for several months due to some sort of oversight. Lmao. They changed it at the start of this month though so it should be better now. I don't know about EAC, but it very well might use a similar system to Nintendo where it doesn't instantly kick or ban when it detects something wrong - instead it waits a while (though probably not too long) and applies the bans a bit later. Plus Fortnite has the issue of being a free to play game, so if someone cheats and gets banned, they can just make a new account and do it again.
     
    medoli900 and HRudyPlayZ like this.
  8. DuoForce

    DuoForce GBAtemp Fan
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    497
    Country:
    United States
    Nice to see big companies like Bethesda listening to the fans, good on the fans to make their criticism loud enough to be heard and bring change!
     
  9. Mariemario

    Mariemario Member
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Country:
    Indonesia
    Glad community's voice being heard! First AMD Ryzen Zen 3 debacle, now this.
     
  10. Espen84

    Espen84 Advanced Member
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    64
    Country:
    Norway
    Yes to me it had. I love this game! But i dont play the multilayer. I just like kick back and kick demons as. But with this update I had micro stutters and random fps drops. I got my hold on the drm free version, and it play flawlessly. So I am pretty sure it's the anti-cheat. But pc world it's a huge amount of different setup and hardware so ofc not all will be affected by this. But what is really concerning is this sneak attack that implement a rootkitt to the pc. Couse that is what it is. It work on the kernel level of the computer. So it have full access to your computer. Do you trust them to do that. Or even if bethesda or Id is trusted, what if they are attacked and users computer data rome in the free. With access to visa cards, shopping history, or your web browsers dirty search histor. This is bad in so meny levels, I can't even. And they wherent forthcoming either. It was sneak implemented, weeks after ppl buy the game
     
    Last edited by Espen84, May 21, 2020 at 1:56 PM
  11. Mark McDonut

    Mark McDonut GBATemp's Resident Ghostbuster
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2008
    Messages:
    807
    Country:
    United States
    STOP.GIVING.MONEY.TO.DENUVO.
    IT.BREAKS.YOUR.GAMES.
    FOR.F.SAKE.
     
  12. the_randomizer

    the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    29,663
    Country:
    United States
    People who defend and enable Denuvo, whether it's the anti-cheat or DRM, deserve no right to play games from stupid developers :creep:
     
  13. The Real Jdbye

    The Real Jdbye Always Remember 30/07/08
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    19,125
    Country:
    Norway
    There is absolutely no reason anti-cheat should need to be loaded when you're not playing online anyway. Just give the game an alternate launch mode that disables anti-cheat and online.
     
    Silent_Gunner likes this.
  14. gudenau

    gudenau Largely ignored
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    3,574
    Country:
    United States
    Anyone have the driver? I'd like to have a copy, might be fun to look at.
     
  15. Chary

    OP Chary Never sleeps.
    Senior Editor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    8,965
    Country:
    United States
    There was an mmo I was trying out once, and it absolutely would not run on my PC. The reason it kept crashing? The anti cheat conflicted with my PC's RGB controller program. I had to disable RGBs and uninstall the program to get the MMO working. There's some crazy horrible anti-cheats out there.
     
    Ryccardo likes this.
  16. MarkDarkness

    MarkDarkness Deliverator
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    998
    Country:
    Poland
    History repeats itself. Somebody here must be old enough to remember when the corporations were installing rootkits via AUDIO FUCKING CDS. That one went well.
     
    Ryccardo likes this.
  17. Andy2001

    Andy2001 Member
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    39
    Country:
    Germany
    That was fast as fuck!
     
  18. Memoir

    Memoir Hi, I'm Cynical!
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9,803
    Country:
    United States
    Anything Denuvo is already ill received in the gaming community. Adding a Ring 0 (kernel level) anticheat with the Denuvo name is asking for trouble. There's no valid reason an anticheat needs full, unfettered access to your system. It's asking for problems. I actually Uninstalled Valorant because of the same thing (different AC).

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    No, they're removing DAC from what I've read. Entirely. Unless I overlooked something. They also stated they will be communicating with the community in terms of future anti-cheats.

    I also find it funny that some people in here think that DAC would keep cheaters out.
     
    Last edited by Memoir, May 21, 2020 at 6:31 PM
    Xzi likes this.
  19. SonicMC

    SonicMC GBAtemp Fan
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    324
    Country:
    United States
    Denuvo was finally removed from Sonic Mania.

    Still waiting on removal from Team Sonic Racing...
     
  20. SG854

    SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,136
    Country:
    Comoros
    Include Apple in there. Remember the phone throttling debacle. They then released an update that stopped throttling.

    If people complain loud enough and refuse to buy their products lots of money will be lost so they have no choice to but listen to us.

    Being a fan boy/girl and endlessly defending a compabny is stupid because you miss out on opportunities like this for a better experience. Complaining does work.
     
    Last edited by SG854, May 21, 2020 at 7:29 PM
Loading...

Hide similar threads Similar threads with keywords - backlash, Software, Eternal