How wars are prepared

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by notimp, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. notimp
    OP

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

    Member
    10
    Sep 18, 2007
    Highly interesting interview with the iranian intellectual elite about the incidence that would have caused war - if the democrats would not have reminded the Trump andministration, that they would not fund a war at this point in time:

    https://www.democracynow.org/2019/6/21/trump_cancels_iran_strikes_after_drone

    Video already starts at the correct timecode.

    US quality media this time isnt on the side of the war mongers (I restrain from just calling them hawks in this case), which is also noted.


    If you need quick background information. US wanted to get out of the middle east - they all but lost all the recent wars there, and now have energy independence in country - but their colonial outpost in the region (sorry Israel), has honest doubts, that it will survive as a state, once the americans are gone.

    So now destroying iran is on the agenda again, as a prerequisite for america eventually leaving the region. Democrates currently are against funding this war. Europeans are as well.


    The other side wants to tell stories of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction again, as well as of attacks on tankers, again, which arent plausible - but very emotional.

    Currently all sides seem to cautiously agree, that war is on the US agenda - after the US presidential election.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 22, 2019
    Xzi and IncredulousP like this.
  2. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

    Member
    13
    Dec 23, 2009
    Belgium
    Belgium
    I was thinking of starting a thread on this as well. And I'm glad that source seems to cite the events as I perceive them, so I don't have to defend myself unneeded.

    The first strike was the withdrawal from the US from the nuclear pact. Rather than providing proof that Iran did violate it, it just assumed they were right and threatened the other countries who just want to uphold the pact as normal.

    Then there's that bombing on those ships. The US claims it's Iran, Iran denies. But this is two years under Trump administration, and the administration 's credentials are actually less than zero (meaning : they've got motives to divert the attention from the domestic mess.
    I mean... The war on Iraq was a mistake, but it could get started because the rest of the world had no real reason to doubt the intelligence. Right now, it's just known that Pompeo and Bolton want war first, with an actual reason as an afterthought.

    Next up : the shooting down of the drone. Again : either you believe an administration that lies on a daily basis (heck... Even Sarah Sanders admitted lying about sources), or a country that hasn't posed a threat in decades. The former say the done was over international waters and shot down without warning, the latter way it was over their state border and they were warned.

    The thus far last part is also the most interesting one : Trump calling off an airstrike at the last moment. This is weird because I'm absolutely not used to Trump doing something right. It's not much to his credit as those potential 150 civilians wouldn't have been in danger if it wasn't for those American provocations to begin with (hey.... I forgot : of course there are more economic sanctions against the country, because of course there are). But still... It could've been worse.
     
    Xzi likes this.
  3. Xzi

    Xzi A terrible fate fills you with determination

    pip Contributor
    19
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    There's no guarantee it's gonna be after. If Trump's poll numbers keep slipping, he's likely to see war with Iran as a way to help his re-election chances. Rarely does the US change presidents during wartime, and it worked for GWB.
     
    Ericthegreat likes this.
  4. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

    Member
    13
    Dec 23, 2009
    Belgium
    Belgium
    I've thought about this as well, but I dare to say this could just be the exception.

    The second golf war(1) happened in the aftermath of 9/11. While there was some international concern about the targeting of Iraq ("wait...why are you planning to strike on Iraq? Those clowns came from Afghanistan! :unsure:"), there was still some sympathy to the USA. International experts couldn't locate those "Weapons of Mass Destruction" that were touted about, but that could just prove they were hidden better than expected. Because the US intelligence had plenty of proof (even if that later turned out to be twisted to be in favor of the strike) and the USA was united behind Bush(2) it was hard to argue against it.

    Compare that to now: the intelligence is undermined by the president, the US military thinks it's a bad idea to attack, Iran isn't as much of an isolated country (the nuclear deal is only abandoned by the USA), the trade war with China isn't a small endeavor and the USA is all but united (if Trump isn't pissing off US allies he's pissing off the USA public by sucking up to Russia or North Korea). Not to mention the fact that Trump manages to make W. Bush look intelligent by comparison.

    So all in all: where is his basis for a war? Congress certainly isn't going to give a go for it. Democrat want to not only have him impeached but imprisoned as well. And at this time, just about the only way Trump can manage to get something done is by veto-ing the opposition. His attack on the media helped him in the short run when he came into office, but that card has been played. The result is that even fox news isn't enthousiast about branding anyone with concerns about war a traitor to the US cause.

    It could also be (but maybe I'm naive) that people have actually LEARNED from the Iraq fiasco. Saddam was a dictator, but at least he kept the country relatively stable. Bombing the place and removing that guy created a vaccuum that was later filled with ISIS and similar terrorist groups that made Al Qaeda look like pansies. It doesn't take a genius to realise that doing the same thing in Iran will give the same result as in Iraq. So why wait four more years to vote in a democrat as president who will clean up the mess when you can do that in 2020 as well? :tpi:

    Provided Trump isn't impeached and/or jailed before that time, obviously.

    (1): if you want to call it a war, of course, as the US was so much stronger that it was basically the equivalent of a wrestler taking on a toddler
    (2): I really didn't like it, but what was I really going to do aside protesting in the streets of Belgium? Our opinion simply didn't matter
     
    Xzi likes this.
  5. Xzi

    Xzi A terrible fate fills you with determination

    pip Contributor
    19
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    I don't think he has one...yet. Seems this administration is working on it, though, given the blame placed on Iran for the Japanese tanker explosion and now the drone we baited them into shooting down. If we had bombers in the air just for that, you can bet people in the White House are licking their lips at the chance to blame Iran for the next random extremist attack anywhere in the Middle East. One American death is more than enough for the warmongers in the Republican party to start beating their chests.

    Trump says he doesn't need congressional approval to strike Iran, and unfortunately he is correct. Under GWB, executive powers were expanded to allow for that decision to be made unilaterally.
     
    Taleweaver likes this.
  6. linuxares

    linuxares I'm not a generous god!

    Moderator
    16
    Aug 5, 2007
    Sweden
    Trump is correct. He have the right to start a war, but he need congress to help keep the war going. I'm baffled that one person have so much power.
     
    Xzi likes this.
  7. cracker

    cracker Nyah!

    Member
    8
    Aug 24, 2005
    United States
    15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. None were from Afghanistan or Iraq.

    Re this topic: If some Iranian was behind the oil tanker attack then it doesn't make any sense at all for it to have been state-sponsored since the Japanese PM was, at the same time this occurred, in trade talks in Iran. That would be a helluva way to negotiate... The crew said it was an airborne attack so it was from a plane strike or missiles being launched from land. I wouldn't doubt it being a third party that was trying to stir shit up.

    The drone being shot down is quite an ambiguous event. The area where is was flying in has a very narrow international airspace. It is hard to say if it went into Iranian airspace or not. Besides that, we don't know if it was a normal spy mission or if it was meant to be passively aggressive — notwithstanding if it was armed or not.

    What hasn't been mentioned in nearly any source is that there was also a U.S. spy plane carrying a crew of 35 flying in the area at the same time that Iran purposely left alone because they knew it was manned. It seems almost as if there was a plan to provoke killing U.S. citizens to start a war was engineered by warhawks. Hmmmmm...
     
    Xzi likes this.
  8. Xzi

    Xzi A terrible fate fills you with determination

    pip Contributor
    19
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    Glyptofane likes this.
  9. azoreseuropa

    azoreseuropa GBAtemp Guru

    Member
    11
    Nov 6, 2002
    United States
    Azores/Portugal
    LOL. It won't happened at all. They are just silly children barking at each others like an idiots. Stupid politics and the corruption.
     
    leonmagnus99 likes this.
  10. cracker

    cracker Nyah!

    Member
    8
    Aug 24, 2005
    United States
    While not mentally incapacitated, there are practically neon signs pointing to him having various mental issues (read: narcissism, personality disorder,...).
     
    Xzi likes this.
  11. SG854

    SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It

    Member
    11
    Feb 17, 2017
    Comoros
    If Trump keeps us out of war with Iran he will be a better President the George Bush.
     
  12. Xzi

    Xzi A terrible fate fills you with determination

    pip Contributor
    19
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    Only problem being that Trump is the one who has brought us to the brink of war with Iran in the first place, by reneging on the previous nuclear inspections deal both countries had agreed to. Then he appointed John Bolton and other known warmongers to key positions in his administration. Hardly praiseworthy if he somehow manages to solve a crisis that he created.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Jun 26, 2019
    cracker likes this.
  13. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

    Member
    13
    Dec 23, 2009
    Belgium
    Belgium
    How about we make these sorts of claims until after his presidency? When he got in office, there were absolutely no tensions whatsoever with Iran. Now you're at the brink of war. It's also pretty cynical to call "not being at war TODAY" an achievement.
     
  14. SG854

    SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It

    Member
    11
    Feb 17, 2017
    Comoros
    Make if claims after Trump presidency ends? Doesn’t make sense. That’s not how if is used. It’s used before not after. If X happens then YZ.



    Trump keeps saying he’s anti war that’s what he campaigned on. And keeps saying he doesn’t want war with Iran. He takes credit for bringing Troops back and avoiding interventionist wars. Which show his mindset on this. He listens to a lot of Fox News and Tucker Carlson, and Carlson is against war. There is right wing and left wing union against the establishment and neo conservatives, wanting to avoid war.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Jun 26, 2019
  15. barronwaffles

    barronwaffles GBAtemp Fan

    Member
    6
    May 15, 2014
    Syria
    You're fucking kidding, right? Both burgerland parties have members absolutely barking at the idea of turning Iran into another failed state - the US has been attempting to cripple them for decades.
     
    cracker likes this.
  16. Ericthegreat

    Ericthegreat Not New Member

    Member
    9
    Nov 8, 2008
    United States
    Vana'diel
    I mean, you start a war, I think they kinda have to find it after that, now about Iran, I mean it's pretty bad, I'm guessing people died on those oil tankers? The UK seems to agree it was probably Iran. I know theyer mad about the nuclear agreement, but they cant kill people because of it, and expect we are all supposed to just be okay with that.
     
  17. Xzi

    Xzi A terrible fate fills you with determination

    pip Contributor
    19
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    No deaths from the Japanese oil tanker explosion AFAIK. The crew abandoned ship and was picked up by the US Navy.
     
  18. Ericthegreat

    Ericthegreat Not New Member

    Member
    9
    Nov 8, 2008
    United States
    Vana'diel
    Other was Saudi Arabia? No matter how you feel about their prince ( :/ ) no reason they should die.
     
    Xzi likes this.
  19. Xzi

    Xzi A terrible fate fills you with determination

    pip Contributor
    19
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    Hmm? I'm not sure how it's related, but I agree that continuing to support Saudi Arabia's despotic leadership while simultaneously threatening war with Iran is very hypocritical.
     
  20. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

    Member
    13
    Dec 23, 2009
    Belgium
    Belgium
    Why do you still bother with what he says? The guy is a notorious liar.

    What he did was tear up the nuclear treaty without reason. What he did was impose stricter economic sanctions. What he did was send a drone over their air space(1). What he nearly did was kill 150 innocent Iranians.


    Besides...are we talking about Donald Trump here? Y'know...about this high, ski resort tan, blond and grumpy? All I hear him say when asked about a coming war with Iran are things like "I hope not" and "we'll see". Perhaps he campaigned against a war(2), but if so he has now delegated it to guys who actually do want war. And to be honest: I don't see him fire either Bolton or Pompeo anytime soon.


    (1): yes, I know the US army claims the thing was over international waters. I'd say the same thing if my 150 million dollar toy was shot down over my neighbor's yard.
    (2): I honestly couldn't say. His retarded antics like insulting his opponents and his pledge for a wall took up so much media coverage that "I'm against a war" was somewhat of a mundane footnote that didn't quite make it in international news
     
    Last edited by Taleweaver, Jun 26, 2019
    Xzi likes this.
Loading...