Homebrew Question How is Nintendo 64, Gamecube and PS2 emulation coming along?

[nastys]

I wouldn't be so patronising if you don't know what you're talking about. DamonPS2 for Android was an unofficial port of PCSX2 that ran some games well, but nothing complex - even under the best settings God of War was running at half speed - and remember the Switch is not a great chip. It's an underclocked X1 with a 768MHz GPU (half of that in portable, 384MHz) and a 1GHz quad core CPU with one of those cores disabled in portable. That's really very little to get a good emulator for a complex 300MHz MIPS system working, especially since emulators like good single core performance.

The emulated EE can be underclocked. Doing so breaks compatibility and reduces the framerate in some games but at least games usually run at full speed.

 

[TheMrIron2]

The emulated EE can be underclocked. Doing so breaks compatibility and reduces the framerate in some games but at least games usually run at full speed.

Okay so let's say you're emulating a 150MHz EE then - which will halve the in game framerate in every game, so I'm not sure what benefit this really is anyway - and then you still have to emulate a graphics chip with 48GB/s bandwidth and two 150MHz vector units which are used extensively for geometry and other calculations. It's not an easy system to emulate no matter which way you slice it.

 

[nastys]

Okay so let's say you're emulating a 150MHz EE then - which will halve the in game framerate in every game, so I'm not sure what benefit this really is anyway - and then you still have to emulate a graphics chip with 48GB/s bandwidth and two 150MHz vector units which are used extensively for geometry and other calculations. It's not an easy system to emulate no matter which way you slice it.

I can emulate the PS2 on an old Athlon 64 laptop and it runs decently with software rendering (well, with max. frame skipping anyway; it would run better if it had a decent GPU with hardware acceleration), and the Nintendo Switch is much more powerful than that laptop. Plus GameCube emulation is already possible on the Switch's SoC, and the GameCube is more powerful than the PS2.
Okay, downclocking the EE isn't ideal, but at least most games should be playable and run without the "slowmo" effect.

 

[Silent_Gunner]

I can emulate the PS2 on an old Athlon 64 laptop and it runs decently with software rendering (well, with max. frame skipping anyway; it would run better if it had a decent GPU with hardware acceleration), and the Nintendo Switch is much more powerful than that laptop. Plus GameCube emulation is already possible on the Switch's SoC, and the GameCube is more powerful than the PS2.
Okay, downclocking the EE isn't ideal, but at least most games should be playable and run without the "slowmo" effect.

Except that any computer that I'm aware of from that era used processors that were x86 based. If ARM32/64 was on consumer markets, it certainly wasn't on full blown PCs, be it a laptop or a desktop. You can't just take x86-based programs, click and drag 'em to the Switch, and expect it to just work. Think of code being a language and the processor type the kind of material you write code upon. It's going to be a different way to read and run things. Not to mention, on x86-based processors, to run EVERYTHING (including SotC, ZOE2, Burnout 3/Revenge) at full speed, with no glitches AT ALL on PCSX2 requires you to have an Intel processor (they're still the king in sheer IPC atm), run the games in software mode, (which is even more demanding on CPU's, and everything looks just as bad, if not worse, than playing a PS2 on an old TV set, and options for upscaling everything don't work in this mode), and also to overclock that processor to run at a higher speed unless if you have the latest of desktop CPUs. If the Tegra X1 were in the Shield Console with adequate cooling, this may be a possibility, but I don't know what OS the Shield runs, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Windows based, hence I'd just forget about the idea of PCSX2 running decently in any way, shape, or form. Yeah, it does work with Linux, but I have no experience with how it runs on that OS, and haven't had the time nor opportunities to test it myself since my PC decided to be an asshole and stop powering on because I removed an SD card reader.

 

[TheMrIron2]

I can emulate the PS2 on an old Athlon 64 laptop and it runs decently with software rendering (well, with max. frame skipping anyway; it would run better if it had a decent GPU with hardware acceleration), and the Nintendo Switch is much more powerful than that laptop. Plus GameCube emulation is already possible on the Switch's SoC, and the GameCube is more powerful than the PS2.
Okay, downclocking the EE isn't ideal, but at least most games should be playable and run without the "slowmo" effect.

With max frame skipping, yeah... I think the problem is self apparent that people are saying "PS2 games will run on Switch! just run them at half speed!". There's no comparison with Dolphin.

And while the GameCube generally beat the PS2 hardware wise, there's multiple points wrong with PS2/GC emulator comparisons:

- MIPS and PowerPC are totally different architectures and it's an apples and oranges comparison. MIPS has more registers than most other architectures, for example, making some emulation on MIPS machines easier (as all CPU registers that are being emulated can be mapped to the equivalent on a MIPS machine without fearing running out of registers) and by reverse, MIPS emulation can be a bit messier by default.

- The PS2 had multiple big advantages over the GameCube and Xbox. The system was weaker in many general areas, but the system was geared for a different type of development (eg effects were written and brute-forced in software as opposed to using a fixed set of hardware effects) and as a result the PS2 has its own strengths. One example is bandwidth - the GameCube's GPU bandwidth doesn't come close to the PS2's 48GB/s bandwidth, for example, and the PS2 also favoured geometry operations via VU1's preprocessing - it was the best system of the generation for games/scenes with geometrically complex scenes (mgs3) or emphasis on effects (Zone of the Enders) and none of the competition could pull many of those things off in the same fashion.

- As I might have touched upon above, the PS2 had a very foreign hardware setup. The system didn't just have a CPU and a GPU - it also had two 150MHz vector processing units (VUs/VPUs) which were used for a lot of things from physics to effects. And as mentioned with the astronomical GPU bandwidth and fillrate figures, the PS2 was excellent at not just effects but postprocessing which would have required the scene to be drawn multiple times per frame.

I don't need to explain how a complex hardware design coupled with a very brute forced development approach can (and does) cause emulation issues, and obviously this does not just extend to speed.

 

[uyjulian]

If you want to play PS2 on Switch, Play! runs on Linux ARM, and there is Linux for Switch available, which Lakka uses.


But you should still contribute for the ARM64 dynarec bounty which allows a native Horizon port, so that someone is encouraged to write a dynarec for N64, which will make it easier to port dynarecs for PSX and other MIPS-based platforms: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/63766562-bounty-write-an-arm64-dynarec

 

[nastys]

With max frame skipping, yeah...

Ignore that fact, since it's rendering everything in software. The emulated CPU itself runs at around 80% so it should reach 100% on Switch without frameskipping (since its GPU supports OpenGL really well and therefore it doesn't need software rendering).

- MIPS and PowerPC are totally different architectures and it's an apples and oranges comparison. MIPS has more registers than most other architectures, for example, making some emulation on MIPS machines easier (as all CPU registers that are being emulated can be mapped to the equivalent on a MIPS machine without fearing running out of registers) and by reverse, MIPS emulation can be a bit messier by default.

You have a point.

The system was weaker in many general areas, but the system was geared for a different type of development (eg effects were written and brute-forced in software as opposed to using a fixed set of hardware effects) and as a result the PS2 has its own strengths. One example is bandwidth - the GameCube's GPU bandwidth doesn't come close to the PS2's 48GB/s bandwidth, for example, and the PS2 also favoured geometry operations via VU1's preprocessing - it was the best system of the generation for games/scenes with geometrically complex scenes (mgs3) or emphasis on effects (Zone of the Enders) and none of the competition could pull many of those things off in the same fashion.

Really? What cross-platform games take advantage of that?
Resident Evil 4 on the PS2 has much less polygons compared to the GameCube version.

- As I might have touched upon above, the PS2 had a very foreign hardware setup. The system didn't just have a CPU and a GPU - it also had two 150MHz vector processing units (VUs/VPUs) which were used for a lot of things from physics to effects. And as mentioned with the astronomical GPU bandwidth and fillrate figures, the PS2 was excellent at not just effects but postprocessing which would have required the scene to be drawn multiple times per frame.

I don't need to explain how a complex hardware design coupled with a very brute forced development approach can (and does) cause emulation issues, and obviously this does not just extend to speed.

I know, but at least some games should run fine with speed hacks.

My point is: it's not impossible to emulate the PS2 on Switch.

 

[Silent_Gunner]

Ignore that fact, since it's rendering everything in software. The emulated CPU itself runs at around 80% so it should reach 100% on Switch without frameskipping (since its GPU supports OpenGL really well and it doesn't need software reneering).


You have a point.


Really? What cross-platform games take advantage of that?
Resident Evil 4 on the PS2 has much less polygons compared to the GameCube version.

I know, but at least some games should run fine with speed hacks.

My point is: it's not impossible to emulate the PS2 on Switch.

OK, let me make it more clear here:

Most of the original PCSX2 development team is no longer actively working on the emulator. There's still some people working on a conceptual 1.5 version, but last I checked when my PC was powering on it still wasn't at what was considered a stable release. Could new members pick up the slack? Perhaps, but the main thing holding the emulator back is the human capital (experience, knowledge, wisdom, stuff like that) needed to fix the many issues that plague the emulator atm. I know there are some other projects at the moment (Play! I think), but they are working from the ground up, being made for multiple devices from the start, and not just for Windows/Linux/Mac (not that I'd use a Mac, just saying).

PCSX2, what with all of the problems it has with certain games even after years of development, is still the best PS2 emulator to use if you want to play most of the PS2 games right now without resorting to OPL because fuck the DVD drives in the slim models (no, seriously, every one of these that I bought eventually failed. Don't ask me why my luck stat was that low). Considering how many years it took for the emulator to get to where it is today, can you imagine Play! even standing a chance of coming to the first generation of the Switch assuming Nintendo doesn't go full retard and come up with some other gimmick to replace the Switch concept with? (I can't imagine where you go after the Switch, but that's just me)

I would love for PS2 emulation on a device like the Switch. I want to believe as well, but as you know, facts don't care about your feelings (now I sound like Ben Shapiro), and I just don't see PS2 emulation on the Switch happening. Hell, I'm not even that confident about GameCube emulation. I'm still waiting for Lakka to at least get sound before giving it some prime time support on the go, to say nothing of the other features I'm waiting for it to get (I'd at least like to be able to hear my games while on the go without having to bring a BT speaker/headphones with me).

I'm going to restate what I said in other threads: the most I could really expect from the Switch in terms of it being practical to run games for the system is the Dreamcast. That's where I'd personally be fine with it ending, as most of the Nintendo Gamecube game

 

[Beware]

GameCube and PS2 aren't going to happen. Dolphin runs mediocre on hardware with MUCH more power than a Switch. The Shield TV has clock speeds that are sometimes more than TWICE as high as the Switch. It's simple: If something doesn't run on hardware twice as fast as the Switch then it's certainly not going to run at a decent speed on the Switch.

 

[Silent_Gunner]

Ignore that fact, since it's rendering everything in software. The emulated CPU itself runs at around 80% so it should reach 100% on Switch without frameskipping (since its GPU supports OpenGL really well and it doesn't need software reneering)
You have a point.


Really? What cross-platform games take advantage of that?
Resident Evil 4 on the PS2 has much less polygons compared to the GameCube version.

I know, but at least some games should run fine with speed hacks.

My point is: it's not impossible to emulate the PS2 on Switch.

OK, let me make it more clear here:

Most of the original PCSX2 development team is no longer actively working on the emulator. There's still some people working on a conceptual 1.5 version, but last I checked when my PC was powering on it still wasn't at what was considered a stable release. Could new members pick up the slack? Perhaps, but the main thing holding the emulator back is the human capital (experience, knowledge, wisdom, stuff like that) needed to fix the many issues that plague the emulator atm. I know there are some other projects at the moment (Play! I think), but they are working from the ground up, being made for multiple devices from the start, and not just for Windows/Linux/Mac (not that I'd use a Mac, just saying).

PCSX2, what with all of the problems it has with certain games even after years of development, is still the best PS2 emulator to use if you want to play most of the PS2 games right now without resorting to OPL because fuck the DVD drives in the slim models (no, seriously, every one of these that I bought eventually failed. Don't ask me why my luck stat was that low). Considering how many years it took for the emulator to get to where it is today, can you imagine Play! even standing a chance of coming to the first generation of the Switch assuming Nintendo doesn't go full retard and come up with some other gimmick to replace the Switch concept with? (I can't imagine where you go after the Switch, but that's just me)

I would love for PS2 emulation on a device like the Switch. I want to believe as well, but as you know, facts don't care about your feelings (now I sound like Ben Shapiro), and I just don't see PS2 emulation on the Switch happening. Hell, I'm not even that confident about GameCube emulation. I'm still waiting for Lakka to at least get sound before giving it some prime time support on the go, to say nothing of the other features I'm waiting for it to get (I'd at least like to be able to hear my games while on the go without having to bring a BT speaker/headphones with me).

I'm going to restate what I said in other threads: the most I could really expect from the Switch in terms of it being practical to run games for the system is the Dreamcast. That's where I'd personally be fine with it ending, as most of the Gamecube games have versions of the same concept on the Switch (Mario Kart, F-Zero fans have Fast RMX, Starlink (I know these games aren't replacements for Star Fox and F-Zero), Mario Tennis, Super Smash Bros., every Nintendo system since the Nintendo 64 has it's own 3D Mario, and Sunshine isn't exactly high on the totem pole of 3D Marios from what I've heard). The games from the Wii and GC I'd like to see would probably function better as full-on ports from Nintendo, with the Metroid Prime trilogy getting support for regular controls and having to be adapted to the Joy-Con controls if that's even a realistic possibility, or the first two No More Heroes games which would also have to be adapted to the Joy-Cons.

At this point, if you're looking for a small device to play GC games with, SBCs are getting dramatically better everyday, with the LattePanda even having support for smaller dedicated video cards. Not sure how far it goes in terms of emulation (I doubt it'll play RPCS3), but it is a possibility, and after trying the ODroid XU4 out because of the DC support (and being...somewhat disappointed for too many reasons for this post), I think that SBCs are starting to get dramatic increases in their capabilities even if they aren't designed with just gaming in mind!

 

[TheMrIron2]

Ignore that fact, since it's rendering everything in software. The emulated CPU itself runs at around 80% so it should reach 100% on Switch without frameskipping (since its GPU supports OpenGL really well and therefore it doesn't need software rendering).


You have a point.


Really? What cross-platform games take advantage of that?
Resident Evil 4 on the PS2 has much less polygons compared to the GameCube version.

I know, but at least some games should run fine with speed hacks.

My point is: it's not impossible to emulate the PS2 on Switch.

Why do you specify what "cross platform" games take advantage of it? Is there a problem with exclusives? And if they are cross platform, surely Dolphin would run them better.

But to answer that question, GTA: San Andreas used the fast fillrate to create the evening effect you see on just the PS2 version, and it was a clever way of hiding comparatively low resolution textures in some shots and definitely helped the PS2 version hold up despite less memory than Xbox. Also, the entire point I was making was that while the PS2 was generally weaker (eg. at polygon output) it had some very strong points, and without trying to cause offense it seems like your RE4 comment indicated you didn't really pick up on that.

And I don't believe PS2 emulation is impossible on Switch; if it was optimized very well, I'm sure simple games could be playable especially with frameskip. Just lower your expectations because very good emulation is simply not realistic given the comparatively weak hardware the Switch has. I don't think the system stands much of a chance in portable mode, though (3x 1GHz cores, 384MHz GPU) but since emulation is mostly dependent on single threaded CPU performance, it may not affect things too much (unless pushing high resolutions).

 

[Silent_Gunner]

Why do you specify what "cross platform" games take advantage of it? Is there a problem with exclusives? And if they are cross platform, surely Dolphin would run them better.

But to answer that question, GTA: San Andreas used the fast fillrate to create the evening effect you see on just the PS2 version, and it was a clever way of hiding comparatively low resolution textures in some shots and definitely helped the PS2 version hold up despite less memory than Xbox. Also, the entire point I was making was that while the PS2 was generally weaker (eg. at polygon output) it had some very strong points, and without trying to cause offense it seems like your RE4 comment indicated you didn't really pick up on that.

And I don't believe PS2 emulation is impossible on Switch; if it was optimized very well, I'm sure simple games could be playable especially with frameskip. Just lower your expectations because very good emulation is simply not realistic given the comparatively weak hardware the Switch has. I don't think the system stands much of a chance in portable mode, though (3x 1GHz cores, 384MHz GPU) but since emulation is mostly dependent on single threaded CPU performance, it may not affect things too much (unless pushing high resolutions).

Ehhh...I just don't think it'll come onto the Switch thanks to timing of Play! becoming practical to be used on weaker hardware. Even if it somehow did make it to the Switch, you can forget playing anything demanding like ZOE2, SotC, any of the Namco fighters, Metal Gear Solid games that aren't the MSX ports on Disc 2 of MGS3 Subsistence, etc.. I don't even know if Persona 3/4 could run on it, and people have been wanting Persona 5 on the Switch for a while (and for good reason, as I think it's the best in the series, but we can live to fight about this another day).

Thing is, your expectations would have to be tempered so low that the only games that will play are primarily 2D stuff that would probably be better emulated on NAOMI/Atomiswave (think the Guilty Gear games, any King of Fighters without the Maximum Impact subtitle, and the Mega Man Legacy Collection that could be played on other emulators already supported by RetroArch that aren't as demanding).

If we were to talk about timing in terms of a system getting emulation support, a potential Switch 2 would be more likely...unless Nintendo can't get sober off of trying new gimmicks!

 

[nastys]

GameCube and PS2 aren't going to happen. Dolphin runs mediocre on hardware with MUCH more power than a Switch. The Shield TV has clock speeds that are sometimes more than TWICE as high as the Switch. It's simple: If something doesn't run on hardware twice as fast as the Switch then it's certainly not going to run at a decent speed on the Switch.

We already have GameCube emulation on Switch thanks to Lakka.

It's not full speed but it's good enough. Maybe in docked mode and/or with hacks it would run even better.

Ehhh...I just don't think it'll come onto the Switch thanks to timing of Play! becoming practical to be used on weaker hardware. Even if it somehow did make it to the Switch, you can forget playing anything demanding like ZOE2, SotC, any of the Namco fighters, Metal Gear Solid games that aren't the MSX ports on Disc 2 of MGS3 Subsistence, etc.. I don't even know if Persona 3/4 could run on it, and people have been wanting Persona 5 on the Switch for a while (and for good reason, as I think it's the best in the series, but we can live to fight about this another day).

Thing is, your expectations would have to be tempered so low that the only games that will play are primarily 2D stuff that would probably be better emulated on NAOMI/Atomiswave (think the Guilty Gear games, any King of Fighters without the Maximum Impact subtitle, and the Mega Man Legacy Collection that could be played on other emulators already supported by RetroArch that aren't as demanding).

If we were to talk about timing in terms of a system getting emulation support, a potential Switch 2 would be more likely...unless Nintendo can't get sober off of trying new gimmicks!

DamonPS2 Pro is much faster than Play!

Maybe it could run decently on Switch hardware with some speed hacks, but not until Android is ported.

 

[Silent_Gunner]

We already have GameCube emulation on Switch thanks to Lakka.

It's not full speed but it's good enough. Maybe in docked mode and/or with hacks it would run even better.


DamonPS2 Pro is much faster than Play!

Maybe it could run decently on Switch hardware with some speed hacks, but not until Android is ported.

DamonPS2? As in, this DamonPS2!?

https://pcsx2.net/286-the-pcsx2-team-s-statement-regarding-the-damonps2-emulator.html

 

[uyjulian]

DaemonPS2 uses speedhacks and stolen code. It "works", but performance is not the best, and it cannot be improved any further by the open source community.

Instead of talking about if PS2 will run on the Switch (Play! can run on Switch Linux), why not help with Switch porting efforts? People could do one of the following:
Port Play! to libretro/RetroArch so it has a wider audience, and potential HorizonOS port
Contribute to/help resolve the ARM64 Dynarec bounty

 

[Beware]

We already have GameCube emulation on Switch thanks to Lakka.

It's not full speed but it's good enough. Maybe in docked mode and/or with hacks it would run even better.


DamonPS2 Pro is much faster than Play!

Maybe it could run decently on Switch hardware with some speed hacks, but not until Android is ported.

We actually don't have GCN in Lakka. Lakka (for the time being) has gone 32-bit. GameCube has NEVER been even almost playable (other than Pikmin 1), so now Lakka can take advantage of 32-bit dynarec for improved performance in almost every core; trading Dolphin for ReiCast.

Damon is also literally never going to happen for reasons covered by other users.

 

[Silent_Gunner]

We actually don't have GCN in Lakka. Lakka (for the time being) has gone 32-bit. GameCube has NEVER been even almost playable (other than Pikmin 1), so now Lakka can take advantage of 32-bit dynarec for improved performance in almost every core; trading Dolphin for ReiCast.

Damon is also literally never going to happen for reasons covered by other users.

Just a damn shame about the sound and so many other features that people who are more of the user type (like yours truly, I must admit) than dev type take for granted.

*takes up meditation pose*

Patience, Gunner-san...patience...

 

[nastys]

DaemonPS2 uses speedhacks and stolen code. It "works", but performance is not the best, and it cannot be improved any further by the open source community.

Instead of talking about if PS2 will run on the Switch (Play! can run on Switch Linux), why not help with Switch porting efforts? People could do one of the following:
Port Play! to libretro/RetroArch so it has a wider audience, and potential HorizonOS port
Contribute to/help resolve the ARM64 Dynarec bounty

I agree but at least Damon proved that it's possible to emulate the PS2 on ARM decently.

We actually don't have GCN in Lakka. Lakka (for the time being) has gone 32-bit. GameCube has NEVER been even almost playable (other than Pikmin 1), so now Lakka can take advantage of 32-bit dynarec for improved performance in almost every core; trading Dolphin for ReiCast.

Damon is also literally never going to happen for reasons covered by other users.

That video was uploaded 2 months ago and it clearly shows some GameCube games running on Switch. Also, according to the FAQ, GCN is supported: https://lakka-switch.github.io/documentation/faq.html

EDIT: also 64-bit builds are still being made https://lakka-switch.github.io/documentation/archives.html

Damon won't get ported to Horizon, obviously.

Just a damn shame about the sound and so many other features that people who are more of the user type (like yours truly, I must admit) than dev type take for granted.

*takes up meditation pose*

Patience, Gunner-san...patience...

Currently audio works via Bluetooth or AirPlay.

 

[Beware]

I agree but at least Damon proved that it's possible to emulate the PS2 on ARM decently.

That video was uploaded 2 months ago and it clearly shows some GameCube games running on Switch. Also, according to the FAQ, GCN is supported: https://lakka-switch.github.io/documentation/faq.html

Damon won't get ported to Horizon, obviously.

Currently audio works via Bluetooth or AirPlay.

Please keep talking about shit you don't know anything about. Lakka has switched to 32-bit and no longer supports GCN. It was entirely non-functional in the first place, and has since been entirely abandoned.

 

[nastys]

Please keep talking about shit you don't know anything about. Lakka has switched to 32-bit and no longer supports GCN.

What's stopping you from using an old version of Lakka anyway?

It was entirely non-functional

That video shows The Simpsons Hit&Run running on Switch, so it works. What's non-functional about it? Please be more specific.