Hardware [help] 480p turn out more blurry than 480i?

gundambot

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Hi,

I have a few questions related to displaying progressive on wii...

I'm using the component cable (official) on a LCD tv that supports progressive
the graphics look more clear on 480i than comparing to the composite av cable.

But when selecting 480p in the options, the image turn out to be significantly worse than it was on 480i. (Both with component cable)
- a lot more blurry, jagged edges, etc

I can post pictures for comparison if necessary.


Has anyone else experienced a similar problem?

- Is this related to wii only output signal at 480? (the tv is 30'' ish)

- Would the system menu have any impact on the display? (wii has 3.4J, the tv is north american)

- Are there different 'extents' to which the tv supports progressive? (if the tv doesn't support progressive, it would rather display nothing at all on 480p correct?)


Please if anyone have any insight on this at all , it would be great.

Thank you
 

rolandpibb

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All TVs have different results. Some have better upscalers than others. See if your TV has different setting options.
 

Bladexdsl

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there's your problem your using an LCD tv the bigger they go the worse they get especially in dark areas
tongue.gif
 

gundambot

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rolandpibb said:
All TVs have different results. Some have better upscalers than others. See if your TV has different setting options.

Thanks for the reply.
I did notice the zooming has an effect on it. (480p looks reasonable in 'no scale' , however it's the way i described when displayed in 'full'. 480i looks similar with and without scaling)

A couple of other things I noticed:

- the situation described in topic applies as soon as the setting is changed, even apparently in the main channel menu. Therefore it's unlikely to be because of the particular game(s) being played

- 480p became slightly easier on the eyes when the 'Sharpness' graphic setting on tv is reduced (0-7)
The texture being more tolerable when it's set to 'less than 3'. But, it looks very similiar to 480i on a higher (7) Sharpness setting.
(Is 480p mostly about sharper image than 480i? If so, does adjusting the above completely defeats the purpose of using progressive?)

- Significant aftershadow is noticed with 480p. That is, when a screen fades, the colors linger on on screen for a split second longer (very noticable) before the next screen is displayed, compared to 480i with component.
(does this mean the tv have issues to be truly compatible with progressive scan?)

Thanks for reading...
 

Bladexdsl

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gundambot said:
A couple of other things I noticed:

- the situation described in topic applies as soon as the setting is changed, even apparently in the main channel menu. Therefore it's unlikely to be because of the particular game(s) being played

- 480p became slightly easier on the eyes when the 'Sharpness' graphic setting on tv is reduced (0-7)
The texture being more tolerable when it's set to 'less than 3'. But, it looks very similiar to 480i on a higher (7) Sharpness setting.
(Is 480p mostly about sharper image than 480i? If so, does adjusting the above completely defeats the purpose of using progressive?)

- Significant aftershadow is noticed with 480p. That is, when a screen fades, the colors linger on on screen for a split second longer (very noticable) before the next screen is displayed, compared to 480i with component.
(does this mean the tv have issues to be truly compatible with progressive scan?)

Thanks for reading...
i think it's time you considered getting a new tv the one you have sounds like a shitty brand/model if it has all them problems.
 

rolandpibb

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gundambot said:
- 480p became slightly easier on the eyes when the 'Sharpness' graphic setting on tv is reduced (0-7)
The texture being more tolerable when it's set to 'less than 3'. But, it looks very similiar to 480i on a higher (7) Sharpness setting.
(Is 480p mostly about sharper image than 480i? If so, does adjusting the above completely defeats the purpose of using progressive?)

Always turn the sharpness to off or one notch above zero. All sharpness does is introduce video noise in order to make something look "sharper" or stand out from the b/g.
 

ryan90

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rolandpibb said:
Always turn the sharpness to off or one notch above zero. All sharpness does is introduce video noise in order to make something look "sharper" or stand out from the b/g.
Couldn't Agree more, keep sharpness very low especially when upscaling as it does nothing but bring out noise in the image.
Also try turning some other options off on your tv and see how it effects it, a lot of hdtv's have things like colour enhancement, dynamic contrast and noise reduction which in my opinion can often make things look significantly worse, the dynamic contrast tries to take the darkest colour and make it black, this can mess up alot of stuff by over exposing images which destroys the detail.

In terms of 480i vs 480p though, 480p should be much sharper clearer and have better colours
lecture.gif


the is definitely a problem with your tv
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Maikel Steneker

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ryan90 said:
In terms of 480i vs 480p though, 480p should be much sharper clearer and have better colours
lecture.gif
I don't see how that's possible. As far as I know, the only difference is that 480i refreshes only half the lines on the screen at once and 480p refreshes all of them at once. So it should get a bit sharper, but definately not clearer or with better colors.
 

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Maikel Steneker said:
ryan90 said:
In terms of 480i vs 480p though, 480p should be much sharper clearer and have better colours
lecture.gif
I don't see how that's possible. As far as I know, the only difference is that 480i refreshes only half the lines on the screen at once and 480p refreshes all of them at once. So it should get a bit sharper, but definately not clearer or with better colors.

I don't see why you don't see that possible.
True, all 480p does is refreshing all the lines at once, but because of these there is also no lagging, no ghosting ( that could make the image blurry and darker ) resulting in cleaner, and more vibrant colors on any tv that supports the signal.
Also, I don't know the technical reason behind this, but if you select 480i you basically display a line and double it up, so a picture will be composed by less pixels which are enlarged and make it look pixelated and definitely low-res; while 480p gives you more pixels per line so they look smaller thus a sharper, higher resolution feel ( not by much though ).
Also the fact that you need special cables to output and enable 480p, suggests that a different signal is transmitted which is closer to digital then the standard AV output.
All kind of benefits.
The problem explained above, it really feels like that guy has his Wii system menu choosing the wrong resolution for 480p. It could be a bug in the firmware ( maybe after hacking ) and the Wii actually displays in 480i when you select 480p and the other way around ....
Naturally I should have to look for myself to understand the problem, but it could also mean that your TV is not that good at scaling and so on....
 

Bladexdsl

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rolandpibb said:
gundambot said:
- 480p became slightly easier on the eyes when the 'Sharpness' graphic setting on tv is reduced (0-7)
The texture being more tolerable when it's set to 'less than 3'. But, it looks very similiar to 480i on a higher (7) Sharpness setting.
(Is 480p mostly about sharper image than 480i? If so, does adjusting the above completely defeats the purpose of using progressive?)

Always turn the sharpness to off or one notch above zero. All sharpness does is introduce video noise in order to make something look "sharper" or stand out from the b/g.
i got mine on 25 on my lg 60" and it looks fine.
 

gundambot

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thanks very much for all the reply and tips.

I'll give other options a try again.


- The tv I have doesn't say hdtv on it anywhere...And it doesn't have any of those mentioned settings (colour enhancement dynamic contrast, etc)

- Also aside...if displaying in progressive is mainly to have a 'sharper' image.
Wouldn't having to turn down the 'sharpness' setting on progressive just defeats its purpose?

- the upscale used by the tv is definitely part of the problem. When using 'no scale', I could tell indeed 480p looked better..

- any thought about the 'after-shadow' I mentioned? (sorry I really have no idea what to call it)...That is, the colors linger on the screen for a split second longer when the image fades out, before the next image is displayed. It's very noticeable.
 

tueidj

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It is quite possible that 480p looks more blurry than 480i.
480p crams twice as much information into the same amount of signal as 480i. The easiest way to think of it is 2 frames squashed side by side into the same amount of space that a regular single frame would take up. If you've got an old bt8x8 capture card this can actually be observed if you feed it a 480p signal. The framerate is increased at the cost of horizontal pixels. If your tv is good enough you won't see the difference, but if it's not you get blurriness.
 

rolandpibb

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gundambot said:
- Also aside...if displaying in progressive is mainly to have a 'sharper' image.
Wouldn't having to turn down the 'sharpness' setting on progressive just defeats its purpose?

480p is supposed to give a more fluid and "natural" appearance. It is unrelated to the sharpness setting in this respect. Although as tueidj pointed out the TV could be having scaling issues.
 

Arm73

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rolandpibb said:
gundambot said:
- Also aside...if displaying in progressive is mainly to have a 'sharper' image.
Wouldn't having to turn down the 'sharpness' setting on progressive just defeats its purpose?

480p is supposed to give a more fluid and "natural" appearance. It is unrelated to the sharpness setting in this respect. Although as tueidj pointed out the TV could be having scaling issues.


Or maybe just a slow response time.
You should check the • Response time, if is more then 8 ms ( which is common in less expensive TVs ) that's the reason for your blurry shadowy picture.
Mine has a Response time: 6 ms and I don't have any problem.
 

Achilles

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tueidj said:
It is quite possible that 480p looks more blurry than 480i.
480p crams twice as much information into the same amount of signal as 480i. The easiest way to think of it is 2 frames squashed side by side into the same amount of space that a regular single frame would take up. If you've got an old bt8x8 capture card this can actually be observed if you feed it a 480p signal. The framerate is increased at the cost of horizontal pixels. If your tv is good enough you won't see the difference, but if it's not you get blurriness.
This is totally wrong. 480i displays 60 FIELDS per second whereas 480p displays 30 FRAMES per second. It's exactly the same amount of data, just displayed in different ways. And horizontal resolution is not different between the two.
 

tueidj

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I think you're totally wrong because 480p is 60 FRAMES per second, achieved by halving the scanline period to fit twice as many lines in the same amount of signal.
 

qdog82

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So if your tv is not hd ready, then its max resolution should be 480P, so there shouldnt be any scalling because the wii would run in the tvs native resolution.
Lcds that are not hdready are very old now, they had a lot of problems with ghosting, because there response time was very high , that should explain the fading you talked about.

So is your tv 16:9? Did you set the wii also to 16:9? Because that could explain the bad picture quality if the wii would still be in 4:3 and the tv stretching it out to 16:9
 

qdog82

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DKAngel said:
480p can be either 24/30 or 60 frames depending on the tv

No, every tv can output 60 frames, even tvs from 20 years ago, it all depends on the game or video if its using 24/30 or 60 frames
 

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