Question HBG shop new update and no full ram access

Discussion in 'Switch - Emulation, Homebrew & Software Projects' started by Verin, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. wurstpistole

    wurstpistole I got 8 warning points

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    Gambia, The
    Can you imagine both having made quite some important contributions to the Switch homebrew scene and still being despised by 95% of its users? That sure is an achievement.
     
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  2. Mopquill

    Mopquill Member

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    I don't know the specific situation, so I can't comment on it, but that is definitely unfortunate. Would this work:

    Because if you can restore the default behavior, you only need to override/modify the config file, not fork their CFW.

    I think you can just tell people it's unsupported without hardcoding the requirement. That is what the people in thread are upset over, and even if you don't want to spend your time supporting that (which is understandable), requiring it isn't fair, and is going to turn a lot of users off, in my opinion, and I presume that of those in this thread. Either way, good luck.
     
  3. blawar

    blawar Developer

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    Nov 21, 2016
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    I tried signing ini files so they could not be changed, and people complained about that much more than just forking the entire thing ironically lol. I had to sign them, because people were only copying the tinfoil nro and then crashing when trying to launch tinfoil.
     
  4. Dave_Chad

    Dave_Chad GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Jun 29, 2016
    Why does using your custom fork ask me to format my sd as it has been used in another console? I switch back to clean atmosphere files without your HBG zip and it stops asking me to format... Happens on stock and emummc.

    Why can't HBG just be a standalone app i don't get why it has to be so complicated :(

    It is literally the only change i make...copy the HBG zip in its entirety as asked...and boom please format :@
     
    Last edited by Dave_Chad, Sep 18, 2019
  5. blawar

    blawar Developer

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    it is a stand alone app, if you dont use atmosphere. it only forces bundle if you insist on using atmosphere. No idea about your sd format message, the fork is just atmosphere master with loader.ini settings hard coded.
     
  6. Dave_Chad

    Dave_Chad GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Jun 29, 2016
    That's what i thought, i feel the issue is specific to my own Switch. All i know is copying the full HBG 4.10 zip makes it happen. Would me previously running incognito affect it...does your fork check anything to do with prodinfo?

    Helped update 2 friends to the newest HBG and i don't think they have the issue. Difference is they were running the latest files with HBG zip BEFORE running incognito...

    YIKES.. So your fork includes ability to write to cal0 by default, i've been using the 8.1 mitm kip and flag file for writing to cal0 and i think THAT is the issue. Weird... But i guess the issue was my end all along. :|
     
    Last edited by Dave_Chad, Sep 18, 2019
  7. Mopquill

    Mopquill Member

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    Why sign the INI? As it is now, people can just not use the custom Atmosphere and use the mod in this thread. You're just working harder to make some people's lives harder. Just provide an INI with your bundle instead of a whole forked CFW, and check on tinfoil launch attempts for there being enough memory. You can also have an alert that says something like:

    "Warning: you are launching Tinfoil from title mode, which is potentially unstable, and not secure. Be sure to always launch Tinfoil in applet mode by launching from the Album."

    And if it's in applet and doesn't have full memory:

    "Error: cannot allocate full applet memory. Make sure you install and extract the entire Tinfoil Bundle to your SD card to properly configure applet mode memory."

    Then, you don't have to worry about maintaining and keeping up with Tinfoil updates, and people who don't want to install a patched Atmosphere don't have to. And the cal0 stuff can be done via kips, or still the patched atmosphere if you're insistent, but that can be for incognito, which absolutely doesn't need to be distributed alongside Tinfoil.

    That all sounds like the most amenable solution that meets everyone's goals without preventing anyone from running their own device the way they'd like to. I hope you consider it.
     
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  8. GnK23

    GnK23 GBAtemp Regular

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    Apr 6, 2016
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    Can you please make an updated exefs.nsp for tinfoil launching on eshop? the one on tinfoil io website does not allow joycon input to work. Thank you! im using gamemasteru03 tinfoil mod

    Aww. never mind sorry. it seems that 4.0 mod is not built for full support for firmware 9.0 after all. and the exefs.nsp is working. I just hope there would be a new mod for 4.10
     
    Last edited by GnK23, Sep 20, 2019
  9. peepoop

    peepoop Advanced Member

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    So this is a bummer. My Tinfoil/nut setup was working great with vanilla Atmosphere. I made the mistake of updating Tinfoil which removed my ability to use it at all. I don't even use hbg.

    Thanks @blawar for explaining your design decisions, I guess. They probably make development easier for you, but for end users that are looking to maintain more control over their systems than to just install some premade "CFW megapack" you can imagine how it's a bit of a tough sell. I won't be using Tinfoil until Atmosphere "fixes" the things you've identified as broken, or until you've found a workaround and removed the restriction.

    If you could take the time to type up a readme on the Tinfoil download page that explains why you're seeking to have so much control over a user's SD card, and what exactly your issues are with Atmosphere (as you've already done in this thread) I think that would help people to understand what the deal is and where you're coming from.

    Thanks for engaging with the community here. It would have been easier to just stay silent and take the abuse, but I appreciate the explanation, even if it means things aren't likely to change anytime soon.
     
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  10. RisingHopperZeroOne

    RisingHopperZeroOne Advanced Member

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    Jul 31, 2019
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    Are you using this mod https://github.com/coniventia/tinfoilmod-releases/releases? If it isn't working on 9.0.0 with vanilla atmosphere/kosmos you can open up an issue on github since the dev said it was fixed for 9.0.0 and many of us are still on 8.1.0 since 9.0.0 isn't fully functional.
     
  11. Budsixz

    Budsixz GBAtemp Fan

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    Oct 27, 2018
    India
    I still don't understand 1 thing though
    Why do people blaze out on @blawar like that I mean sure he did what he wanted for his app which made some inconvenience for people but you guys are forgetting that this app is free and we are freeloaders. He can do what he wants with his app.
    And if you really want something to change then you can start by requesting instead of lashing out at him.
    Or develop something yourself and make it free for everyone the way you want
     
  12. Mopquill

    Mopquill Member

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    I'm a developer myself, and I still think he crossed a line in terms of taking control over a user's CFW. There is a scope to what a released app should do, and it's generally considered different than a pack. If I were to install a pack like Kosmos, I am aware it's going to do a whole bunch of things and change my config. If I install an app, I expect it to just be that app. Modifying what my CFW does, changing its button combos and restricting its functionality is unacceptable to me. Bundling two other apps in something that isn't meant to be a pack/bundle is unacceptable to me.

    Even when I explained about the INI option, he was saying he couldn't lock an INI and verify a signature. He is looking for a degree of control over a user's system to force them to let his app work. I have suggested perfectly reasonably solutions above. When writing something that is going to run inside someone else's code, we generally a) check to see if we have resources/settings we need, and if not, b) either disable features that will cause crashes/exceptions, or at least display a warning that the user is exiting supported codespace, and if something breaks, here's how to fix it (e.g. change this setting in INI, or download the do-it-for-me pack found here: https://example.com/whatever.zip) -- hell, if you want to be extreme, you could also refuse to run.

    This applies to any system. People got mad when Windows 10 updated them from 7 or 8 to 10 and gave them a free license. People don't like their stuff to be modified without their consent and awareness, and it shouldn't be pushed that way anyhow. If I installed Chrome, and it also installed a specific media player or something, or actually modified Windows, I and many other users would be furious, even if maybe it said somewhere that they were going to do that. It's considered wildly unacceptable, and especially when we're in a fragile ecosystem where we're trusting developers to take care of our machines.

    I will not be using Tinfoil until this isn't forced, and if Goldlead actually adds a few functions/maybe improves their UX design a bit, I'm just gonna switch.
     
  13. blawar

    blawar Developer

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    Nov 21, 2016
    United States
    You misunderstood, I did sign / lock loader.ini. People complained then too. Users should be happy Tinfoil supports any version of atmosphere at all, as atmosphere is unsupported. The only supported CFW's are ReiNX and SX OS, neither of which forces any settings changes or signs builds. I will say, that Tinfoil will never support vanilla atmosphere unless the memory changes and BIS stuff is removed (I doubt this will happen).

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    You are missing the piece that I do not support launching tinfoil in title mode, an actively discourage it. The only supported way of running Tinfoil is in applet mode, which wont work in vanilla atmosphere.

    I gave my reasons earlier for why title mode is not supported / bad.
     
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  14. Mopquill

    Mopquill Member

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    You misunderstand me. I'm saying locking (or forcing) anything is not okay.

    Dude, the BIS stuff only affects Incognito, I don't understand why you're conflating it with Tinfoil's functioning. The memory changes can be changed with a normal edited INI. You're using multiple definitions of support here. Developer support means, you're not gonna actively code for it, and you're not gonna entertain tech support queries involving it. It does not mean you actively block things, change functionality, force files, etc.

    No, you actively fork it so it can work. We legit want you to stop. Get rid of the fork, get rid of the bundled stuff with it, don't go out of your way to make Tinfoil work on Atmosphere, it's worse this way. If anyone complains about something not working and they're on atmosphere, just tell them atmosphere is unsupported, that's how you handle that. Don't block it running on atmosphere or try to force your fork to be run, that is neither proper support nor proper lack of support, it's some weird bizarro thing and you gotta stop.

    I understand your reasoning, and I made a post in reply to it that you ignored. Show a simple message when people start Tinfoil either in title mode, or with an applet mode that doesn't give you enough memory that says they're exiting supported territory. Your solution is not a real solution, it unnecessarily takes away autonomy from the end user, and it requires more work on your part. What are you not understanding?
     
    Last edited by Mopquill, Sep 20, 2019
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  15. blawar

    blawar Developer

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    Nov 21, 2016
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    Get rid of the bundling stuff? Tinfoil is no longer a homebrew app, it is a CFW pack. That seems to be your rub, and perhaps the part you dont understand. You are telling me to cut up my product, so you can run bits and pieces on whatever firmware you want. You know atmosphere does something very similar right? they put some many dependecies between moduels that it is difficult to use bits and pieces of it in other CFW's. You shouldnt criticize me for the practice, I didn't invent it in the switch scene :rofl: ReiNX did it with the reinx toolkit, kosmos kind of does it with their toolkit, SX does it left and right. Perhaps you are upset that Tinfoil used to be a standalone homebrew app, and I get that its frustrating. But that is the direction I am moving in. No amount of crying will get me to change my mind on this, im focusing on the entire switch experience.
     
  16. Mopquill

    Mopquill Member

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    The other things you mention are CFW. Atmosphere wrote the damned thing in the first place, and the others forked from it. ReiNX provides value as its own CFW, SX is basically just a way to illegally profit from an open-source software, I don't have a lot of respect for that. But they're all CFW in their own right. Near as I can tell, all your fork does is force some INI options (breaking them being configurable), and disable protections on CAL0. There is no added value for the end-user, other than you requiring these things now for Tinfoil to run.

    That comparison is garbage. For yours to be mentioned in the same breath, it should have a real CFW fork that does something other than service a single app. And something having a dependency by the people who wrote it is not the same as trying to prevent it from running on the CFW that started it all because you feel the need to control what runs on users systems. There is absolutely no reason why you can't just show a notice, or change the INI and live with the idea that someone else might change it back. People said you were unreasonable, especially with the whole stealing Tinfoil's name thing, but I genuinely tried to reason with you here. You were just masquerading as someone who can be reasoned with, when it's pretty clear you're some kind of megalomaniac. Go to therapy.

    Also, I think it's pretty funny that you didn't have the idea to call it a pack until after I suggested you make a pack. ;) Ironic that that should be the reason why my "crying" will go ignored. I hope users of your "switch experience" enjoy having things forced on them and their prodinfo stolen/switches banned.

    Also, for anyone reading this, PSA: ditch Tinfoil. It's not safe, and its author just demonstrated his intent.
     
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  17. blawar

    blawar Developer

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    Nov 21, 2016
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    Can you point me to the forking rules, that say I cannot fork something to support a single app? I'm just fixing atmosphere to make it standards compliant with the other two CFW's. Nice fud at the end though, when you can't win, make shit up right?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Dave_Chad

    Dave_Chad GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Jun 29, 2016
    Do i find it irritating to have to install a forked atmosphere? Absolutely.

    Do i still want the convenience of the app and free games? Abso-fucking-lutely.

    I'll put up with it for now. Nobody is forcing me to use it.
     
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  19. Mopquill

    Mopquill Member

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    Oh, you're forking to fix, I thought you're making a whole CFW suite focused on the entire Switch experience? You're not fixing atmosphere. You're exposing CAL0 for the one-time function of an unrelated program, and your entire fork is dedicated to hard-switching things that should be configurable (removing functionality -- initially going so far as to break title mode) because you're hell-bent on controlling a user's system. Also, I looked into it, the memory change is to keep it so swkbd can run, or it could have a failure to allocate. There's no "standards-compliant with the other two CFWs" -- the other two are forks of the original, which updated to improve stability, and safety of the user's product info. New changes by the front-runner are always going to be out of "standards". You have demonstrated you wish this to remain exposed continually as part of your "entire Switch experience", and your code is closed source. That is not safe, I'm not making anything up. You can keep having this arguments with everyone and decide that everyone but you is wrong, but a pattern is emerging, and it's pretty clear.

    There are other apps that allow you to install titles. Additionally, tinfoilmod removes the requirement for the forked atmosphere, so if you're irritated, just don't do it.
     
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  20. blawar

    blawar Developer

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    Nov 21, 2016
    United States
    you are mistaken. title mode was not intentionally broken, it was a consequence of a “bug” in atmosphere. if you invert the hold r functionality , like ams used to be, then you have to hold R to load games too which is not viable. the only way to disable hbmenu launching on vanilla ams with the r button inverted was to disable title override. i had to fork ams to get the functionality i wanted.
     
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