Graphical Impact of Xbox 720 & PS4

[chyyran]

I personally think that the WiiU is an absolute hunk of junk im afraid. To me, its one generation behind just like the Wii was. The Wii was a fair bit better than a PS2, but Id say only slightly better than the original XBOX.

The WiiU is absolute rubbish for 2012. You can say that its early doors so games are going to look a bit ropey but i disagree, they should STILL have a marked improvement from a 7 year old 360 or PS3.

And on the other point, if sony have the PS4 down as only "marginally" being better than the WIIU, which would only put it "slightly" higher than the current PS3, why on earth would they bother?

Can you imagine it "heres the latest call of duty running on PS3, and here it is side by side on the PS4. As you can see, its marginally better. Now, do you want to play it on PS3, or spend hundreds of dollars to play this slightly better game on a new console." It wont happen. When they new systems hit the shelves, if there isnt a massive improvement over what we already have, who on earth is going to buy it?

The Wii U is a big jump from the Wii, which is solely what Nintendo wanted. They dont care about competing for grunt. The PS3 was a massive improvement from PS2, and the 360 the same over the Xbox.

So why all of a sudden do we think the trend will buck? Ive been in and around consoles, PCs, since the early 80s, and these new microsoft and sony consoles will not come out without a massive increase in graphics, performance. If there isnt that hike, whats the point in bringing something new out?

The WiiU has a very radical (did I just use that word?) architecture compared to the last gen consoles. And you simply cannot compare a system that many developers know how to squeeze every last bit out of, to a system that's barely a year old. The devs are experienced with the PS360, much more so than the WiiU, and know how to exploit it.

As for "massive improvements", I'm not saying that they're going to release a marginally better system compared to the PS3, I'm saying that they're going to release a marginally better system compared to the WiiU. The WiiU is not an underpowered piece of crap (I use this term figuratively, the Wii is a great console) like the Wii. It is a very powerful system that devs just don't know yet how to push it the same way they do with the PS360.

As well, the Sony, cannot afford to create that much of a "massive improvement". They're bleeding cash as we speak! They need to turn a profit, and fast, and again, creating an extremely expensive, but powerful console, when you're that close to bankruptcy, is a great way to dig yourself in a ditch even further. The PS360, as Foxi4 pointed out, is very underpowered, perhaps not so much as the Wii, but still underpowered, and they have to keep up somehow. Soon, the WiiU will be pushed to the envelop, and if MS and Sony can't catch up, they'll fall way behind. They need to make a new console with more resources than the last gen ones to keep up with the times. Again, the only reason PS360 games look so good is because the devs know how to exploit it to it's full potential. The WiiU has yet to reach this, and when it does, the other next gen consoles have to reach it with the WiiU.

Also, "If there isnt that hike, whats the point in bringing something new out?"
Well, there's one very, very solid answer to that. Profit. Money. Cash. Get the idea? The PS360 is getting old, and gradually, devs are getting tired of it. Lack of resources just don't allow games to look as good as they can, so you make a console with more resources, but not necessarily that much of a difference from the last gen, to draw in devs, and therefore, customers.

Well in all honesty, the graphics on the Wii weren't as bad as people say. I mean, games like Metroid Prime 3 could stand up to something on other consoles. It's just most developers were too lazy to figure out how to find shortcuts like they are doing on other consoles.

I agree with most of this.

To be honest, the Wii could have stood up to the other consoles, if Nintendo had bothered to put 1080p support into it. Wii Games look like a blocky mess with even Component cables on my TV, and a CRT just doesn't cut it for the Wii. If you want to truly see how Wii games could look, play with Dolphin. No AA or AF, and just 1x internal res, but 1080p window res. This is how it would have looked on the Wii, had Nintendo took a gamble and allow HD gamng. It just looks so much better

 

[FireGrey]

People don't really realize just how much graphics can get better than PS3 and 360.

 

[kristianity77]

The WiiU has a very radical (did I just use that word?) architecture compared to the last gen consoles. And you simply cannot compare a system that many developers know how to squeeze every last bit out of, to a system that's barely a year old. The devs are experienced with the PS360, much more so than the WiiU, and know how to exploit it.

As for "massive improvements", I'm not saying that they're going to release a marginally better system compared to the PS3, I'm saying that they're going to release a marginally better system compared to the WiiU. The WiiU is not an underpowered piece of crap (I use this term figuratively, the Wii is a great console) like the Wii. It is a very powerful system that devs just don't know yet how to push it the same way they do with the PS360.

As well, the Sony, cannot afford to create that much of a "massive improvement". They're bleeding cash as we speak! They need to turn a profit, and fast, and again, creating an extremely expensive, but powerful console, when you're that close to bankruptcy, is a great way to dig yourself in a ditch even further.

Also, "If there isnt that hike, whats the point in bringing something new out?"
Well, there's one very, very solid answer to that. Profit. Money. Cash. Get the idea?

I take your points i do I just believe that when new consoles come out, what makes them sell initially is showing the consumer what it can do that just cannot be replicated on the older generation. Without that factor, it doesnt pull the public in.

When the 360 came out I had been gaming on a PS2 mainly, with a bit of Gamecube. I remember on launch day walking into a couple of shops, seeing a few games running on demo machines. We are going back a while so bear with me but im pretty sure one was Kameo, another might have been Project Gotham Racing 3 and I think another might have been an NBA title of some sort. To cut a long story short every single one of them games at the time was "wow" in that you just couldnt get or hadnt seen graphics like that before on a home console. not even close.

Thats why i purchased one. And when the next consoles hit the streets ill no doubt do the same thing again. Ill go into a shop and ill expect to be wowed again, in seeing something on screen which just isnt remotely possible on this current gen. If i dont see that, i dont see the point in upgrading. I might well be totally alone in my reasons for buying a new console but this is just my opinion and how i do things. This is why the new ones HAVE to take a significant leap in performance. If a company like Sony cannot afford to do this then there might well be another company in the wings ready to take their place and fancy a piece of the pie.

 

[chyyran]

People don't really realize just how much graphics can get better than PS3 and 360.

This. The PS3 and 360, at their current state, have pretty good graphics. You can get better, but not as much as the jump from PS2 to PS3, and so forth.

I take your points i do I just believe that when new consoles come out, what makes them sell initially is showing the consumer what it can do that just cannot be replicated on the older generation. Without that factor, it doesnt pull the public in.

When the 360 came out I had been gaming on a PS2 mainly, with a bit of Gamecube. I remember on launch day walking into a couple of shops, seeing a few games running on demo machines. We are going back a while so bear with me but im pretty sure one was Kameo, another might have been Project Gotham Racing 3 and I think another might have been an NBA title of some sort. To cut a long story short every single one of them games at the time was "wow" in that you just couldnt get or hadnt seen graphics like that before on a home console. not even close.

Thats why i purchased one. And when the next consoles hit the streets ill no doubt do the same thing again. Ill go into a shop and ill expect to be wowed again, in seeing something on screen which just isnt remotely possible on this current gen. If i dont see that, i dont see the point in upgrading. I might well be totally alone in my reasons for buying a new console but this is just my opinion and how i do things. This is why the new ones HAVE to take a significant leap in performance. If a company like Sony cannot afford to do this then there might well be another company in the wings ready to take their place and fancy a piece of the pie.

Might as well =/= will

And then you have the Ouya.

 

[Deleted_171835]

The PS360 have not reached the apex or pinnacle of visuals in games. I say this as a PC gamer. Simply playing the same games available on consoles at higher settings on my PC produces an instantly noticeable improvement in visuals and I only have a mid-range graphics card. The PS3/360 are ancient consoles and we're long overdue for new ones.

If you want a hint at what next-gen will deliver, just look at the demos we've seen on high-end PCs. Star Wars 1313 and Watch Dogs. At the bare minimum, we will have games that achieve the level of visuals seen in that Wii U bird demo posted earlier.



@kristianity77

Large graphical leaps are not necessary for a new console to sell. Just look at the Wii which sold the most out of the current consoles and yet is the weakest.

That said, I don't think Sony (and Microsoft to an extent) really have a choice in that matter. If their system does not show a clear leap over the predecessors, there will be no reason to get it over the Wii U. Without a gimmick to allure customers (motion-controls for the Wii), a PS4 that's only marginally more powerful than the PS3 would be dead in the water.

And it's bit too early to deride the Wii U as a "hunk of junk". The system just came out and devs have yet to properly grasp the hardware. And the weaker the system, the more work it'll take for games to really shine and show a noticeable jump. The Wii U is not a humongous leap over the PS360 or we would have noticed by now but it is at least more powerful by a fair bit than the PS360. It will take more time and effort on the devs part to create games that show a noticeable leap (perhaps Retro's games will be a first hint at it's true capabilities).

 

[kristianity77]

The PS360 have not reached the apex or pinnacle of visuals in games. I say this as a PC gamer. Simply playing the same games available on consoles at higher settings on my PC produces an instantly noticeable improvement in visuals and I only have a mid-range graphics card. The PS3/360 are ancient consoles and we're long overdue for new ones.

If you want a hint at what next-gen will deliver, just look at the demos we've seen on high-end PCs. Star Wars 1313 and Watch Dogs. At the bare minimum, we will have games that achieve the level of visuals seen in that Wii U bird demo posted earlier.



@kristianity77

Large graphical leaps are not necessary for a new console to sell. Just look at the Wii which sold the most out of the current consoles and yet is the weakest.

That said, I don't think Sony (and Microsoft to an extent) really have a choice in that matter. If their system does not show a clear leap over the predecessors, there will be no reason to get it over the Wii U. Without a gimmick to allure customers (motion-controls for the Wii), a PS4 that's only marginally more powerful than the PS3 would be dead in the water.

And it's bit too early to deride the Wii U as a "hunk of junk". The system just came out and devs have yet to properly grasp the hardware. And the weaker the system, the more work it'll take for games to really shine and show a noticeable jump. The Wii U is not a humongous leap over the PS360 or we would have noticed by now but it is at least more powerful by a fair bit than the PS360. It will take more time and effort on the devs part to create games that show a noticeable leap (perhaps Retro's games will be a first hint at it's true capabilities).

Agreed with much of this. My point on needing graphical leaps to sell new consoles was meant really for those who already own PS3s and 360s. Im guessing this would be the primary reason for them to upgrade to the latest console. Because in fairness, I think the Wii and Wiiu have a sort of separate user base than the PS3 and 360.

 

[J-Machine]

with multi-platform games being the norm right now I seriously doubt WiiU games are gonna wow us untill sony and microsoft make new consoles and even then, unless the devs truly hate coding on nintendo's system, I doubt they will work harder than they would need to on that one when porting to the competition. With the WiiU out first and an improvement over the PS3/360, it will become the benchmark for consoles untill well into it's life when dev's finally get bored with what they can easily make out of it.

you want jaw dropping visuals? 1080p tv (a high quality one) and hook it up to high end pc. You want unique experiences where a company dominates the games and peripherals for said experiences? get a video game console (by unique I mean exclusive titles)

 

[slingblade1170]

The WiiU has a very radical (did I just use that word?) architecture compared to the last gen consoles. And you simply cannot compare a system that many developers know how to squeeze every last bit out of, to a system that's barely a year old. The devs are experienced with the PS360, much more so than the WiiU, and know how to exploit it.

As for "massive improvements", I'm not saying that they're going to release a marginally better system compared to the PS3, I'm saying that they're going to release a marginally better system compared to the WiiU. The WiiU is not an underpowered piece of crap (I use this term figuratively, the Wii is a great console) like the Wii. It is a very powerful system that devs just don't know yet how to push it the same way they do with the PS360.

Ron makes a very good point here, look at Halo 3 compared to Halo 4 or Oblivion to Skyrim on the same Xbox 360, same hardware, etc. Those graphical improvements are mind blowing and nothing has changed but the developers finding new ways to add more detail and texture without upgrading cpu & gpu. The WiiU doesn't look like much now because we have seen the same graphical ability on X360 & PS3 until the WiiU is pushed to its limits. Give the WiiU some time and a few high budget AAA games and it will really show all of its power.

I'm not a PC gamer but I have seen some amazing games running on a high end PC but for a console to spend that kind of cash to keep up with PC would make the consumer pay $500+ easily. If we learned anything from this gen that cost is a big issue as well as online abilities and graphics. The Wii showed that success can come from 1st party games & very low cost but it lacked it a lot of great AAA titles. The PS3 showed us that being the most powerful isn't always best, I mean you had this overpriced console that really had no graphical difference over the Xbox 360 and was inferior to Xbox Live. Also, as far as motion control goes, it should be a choice because motion control can really ruin a game.

 

[duffmmann]

Unless I've missed something, we have come to a point where, graphically, any further improvements are negligible. To the untrained eye, I'm certain that a player will look at the next gen Sony or Microsoft console and be unsure if what they are seeing is something from the PS3/Xbox 360 or something newer. Yes, maybe you'll be able to make a characters eye look even more realistic or something crazy like that, but you really have to be on the lookout for something like that.

I honestly think we've come to a point where Sony and Microsoft have to take a page from Nintendo and innovate their next new console, it can't simply be a graphical upgrade. It doesn't necessarily have to be a screen in the controller, but add something to your system that is both unique and warrants the upgrade in console. Lets have our systems ultimately working toward the goal of the PS9 in that old commercial for when the PS2 was first released.

Thats my opinion.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

I'd just like to say unless you're an industry insider who knows what the next consoles are you shouldn't be throwing out accusations or guesswork. There's so many rumors and so much conflicting information flying around about the next generation that we have no idea.

A lot of people say "We've hit a visual plateau! We can't go any higher!" You can only not go any higher once it looks like real life. Anything is possible.

 

[duffmmann]

People don't really realize just how much graphics can get better than PS3 and 360.

i don't think its really a question of realizing how much better the graphics can be, I think its more a question of do people really care how much better graphics can get at this point? Don't get me wrong, by all means improve your graphics with each new console. But I do think we've come to a point where improved graphics are going to add little to gameplay overall. I can see many many games coming for the xbox720 and PS4 that also get xbox360 and PS3 releases, because the gameplay will not be changed, only how polished off the graphics are. Thats why i stand by my statement that Microsoft and Sony have to go in the next gen with the Nintendo mindset: innovate. Find something that makes gameplay on your system unique from what you did on previous systems, something that you would have been incapable of doing on previous systems. And at this point I don't know what that is. Obviously the PS3 is capable of using the Vita as a controller. Unfortunately the Vita is not cheap, so it is unrealistic to come out with a ton of WiiU like games for the PS3, but what I'm saying is that capability is already there. It seems that Sony could probably just keep innovating the PS3 and not release a new console for a long time, which makes me wonder what the PS4 could possibly have going for it aside from a graphical upgrade, and then I question, how many established gamers are going to be clamoring for the PS4 if its nothing more than a boost in graphics. Sony and Microsoft need to innovate in a way that their current gen systems aren't capable, and for me simply improved graphics aren't going to cut it.

 

[Satangel]

Well I answered no to the poll, mainly because I think the next consoles are going to disappoint me in the fact they will be more aimed at multimedia/streaming than gaming.
Another thing, I hate paid DLC and consoles do that plenty of times.
Meanwhile piracy and secondhand games will keep getting harder and harder, making it much more expensive for us.

So no, I doubt the next generation will live up to my expectations.

 

[duffmmann]

Well I answered no to the poll, mainly because I think the next consoles are going to disappoint me in the fact they will be more aimed at multimedia/streaming than gaming.

Wrong. Gaming systems will always be about gaming. However gaming systems are capable of more and more, and if they're capable of more, why not use those capabilities to improve television watching experiences and get more sales for those that don't game.

Without these multimedia/streaming services, the gaming systems would still have the same games, its not like these services somehow affect what developers are working on for the systems. That makes absolutely zero sense. The existence of Netflix has no impact on the GTA series.

 

[ScreamingBeast]

Important facts seems to have been overlooked during the course of that thread.

1. The Wii is somewhere in between 2.5x/3x more powerful than the GameCube
2. The GC was the most graphically capable console amongst his own generation

What's keeps Nintendo behind is the lack of good 3rd party support, the ridiculous amount of censorship and the lack of decent online support.. plus the fact that very few developper had the capabilities/budjet/time to understand and push the hardware. Please go play Mario Galaxy 2 or Conduit 2 on a good HDTV and just TRY to tell me it was not absolutely gorgeous

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Important facts seems to have been overlooked during the course of that thread.

1. The Wii is somewhere in between 2.5x/3x more powerful than the GameCube
2. The GC was the most graphically capable console amongst his own generation

What's keeps Nintendo behind is the lack of good 3rd party support, the ridiculous amount of censorship and the lack of decent online support.. plus the fact that very few developper had the capabilities/budjet/time to understand and push the hardware. Please go play Mario Galaxy 2 or Conduit 2 on a good HDTV and just TRY to tell me it was not absolutely gorgeous

Conduit 2 looked like shit. Like I remember playing the first game (I actually own a copy of it) and thought it looked pretty good but when I booted up the second one it struck me as a shitty looking Wii game.

And yeah, Super Mario Galaxy looks good because lighting effects are pretty easy last time I checked and there's like hardly any textures. Any game with serious textures looks like ass on the Wii.

 

[duffmmann]

Important facts seems to have been overlooked during the course of that thread.

1. The Wii is somewhere in between 2.5x/3x more powerful than the GameCube
2. The GC was the most graphically capable console amongst his own generation

What's keeps Nintendo behind is the lack of good 3rd party support, the ridiculous amount of censorship and the lack of decent online support.. plus the fact that very few developper had the capabilities/budjet/time to understand and push the hardware. Please go play Mario Galaxy 2 or Conduit 2 on a good HDTV and just TRY to tell me it was not absolutely gorgeous

I don't think anyone disagrees with you. Thats not what this thread is about. Of course the Wii had some beautiful games (mostly 1st party). The question is when the next xbox and playstation are released, are their improved graphics going to be as amazing a leap as it was from the PS2 and Xbox to the PS3 and Xbox360.

I just don't foresee new systems having that kind of impact again graphically. It was obvious during the Xbox/PS2/GCN era what the next leap in graphics would bring, this time I don't see it being so amazing a jump at all.

 

[KingVamp]

I have to laugh at people thinking that the new Sony and MS consoles will look "similar" to whats on the WIIU. If this was going to be the case, why on earth bother? WiiU titles now look no better than what we get on 7 year old PS3s and 360s so what would be the point in releasing something that is barely better!

Maybe because the console is just starting off, so the true power wouldn't even begin to show just yet.

The WiiU is absolute rubbish for 2012. You can say that its early doors so games are going to look a bit ropey but i disagree, they should STILL have a marked improvement from a 7 year old 360 or PS3.The Wii U is a big jump from the Wii, which is solely what Nintendo wanted. They dont care about competing for grunt. The PS3 was a massive improvement from PS2, and the 360 the same over the Xbox.So why all of a sudden do we think the trend will buck? Ive been in and around consoles, PCs, since the early 80s, and these new microsoft and sony consoles will not come out without a massive increase in graphics, performance. If there isnt that hike, whats the point in bringing something new out?

You may just have to take another look at ps3/360 "early doors so games".If you want speak of "trends", then you'll see that it would make more sense to see the next consoles all in the same ball park since the wii is the only home console from Nintendo that went away from that.The only reason you are in that line of thinking towards the ps4 is because the whole time you are using baseless assumptions that the Wii u can't be near the ps4 if ps4 is strong enough over ps3 or in other words, if the ps4 and wii u are near each other then the ps4 would only be "slightly" stronger than the ps3.

Sorry to break it to you, but you not going to see Uncharted years of effort and work from the get go.

Meanwhile piracy and secondhand games will keep getting harder and harder, making it much more expensive for us.So no, I doubt the next generation will live up to my expectations.

While these expectations are off-topic, I think we still have sometime to not worry about that, at least not too much.Oh, and don't buy games that abuses dlc and wait for collections and eoty editions.

I'd just like to say unless you're an industry insider who knows what the next consoles are you shouldn't be throwing out accusations or guesswork. There's so many rumors and so much conflicting information flying around about the next generation that we have no idea.A lot of people say "We've hit a visual plateau! We can't go any higher!" You can only not go any higher once it looks like real life. Anything is possible.

I rather see games become bigger with more contents then see them focus effort and time on realism.Not sure how to answer the poll, but I will say that I feel we didn't need a ps2 -> ps3 jump for ps4 have a nice jump from the ps3.

 

[chyyran]

I'd just like to say unless you're an industry insider who knows what the next consoles are you shouldn't be throwing out accusations or guesswork. There's so many rumors and so much conflicting information flying around about the next generation that we have no idea.

A lot of people say "We've hit a visual plateau! We can't go any higher!" You can only not go any higher once it looks like real life. Anything is possible.

A game that looks like real life is only impressive the first few times around. After that it gets pretty bland. Just saying'. But who knows, someday, graphics tech will transcend real life

We haven't really hit a visual plateau, but the problem is the cost involved. High end graphics are expensive, and it wouldn't be a good choice to put it in a console.

 

[Satangel]

Wrong. Gaming systems will always be about gaming. However gaming systems are capable of more and more, and if they're capable of more, why not use those capabilities to improve television watching experiences and get more sales for those that don't game.

Without these multimedia/streaming services, the gaming systems would still have the same games, its not like these services somehow affect what developers are working on for the systems. That makes absolutely zero sense. The existence of Netflix has no impact on the GTA series.

Let's hope what you said is true. All I know is that for example 360 dashboard really is clogged now with all kinds of services, to rent everything and watch sports channels.
Gaming is tugged away in that dashboard.

 

[FAST6191]

A lot of people say "We've hit a visual plateau! We can't go any higher!" You can only not go any higher once it looks like real life. Anything is possible.

As it stands I seriously doubt MS or Sony have cooked up a world shattering GPU* which means if they follow the same patterns (and I doubt MS is going to break stride from the directX timeline) high end PC now, mid to low when it ships (assuming this time next year I could be playing on one).

*possible exception for something low powered or some slightly exotic CPU/GPU on a single die arrangement but that is probably more a concern for those that enjoy semiconductor fabrication/design.

I already went in the last thread we had on the "games cost more to develop"/"systems are underpowered" subject (which the summary of my input amounted to though resources are nice another option is to stop being a tart and be a better developer).

The only thing that I could be surprised on is if they went in for the GBC approach of having various levels of games (GB, GB with enhanced GBC and GBC only).