Governor Walz selected as VP for Dem ticket

[Sicklyboy]

He supports one form of violence to end another form of violence

It's not as clear cut as saying he is anti violence at that point when he said he is in support of violence (at least of one form) and doesn't care if people burnt their own neighborhoods

Oh boy, next you're gonna say I'm anti-free speech because I don't believe Nazis deserve a voice at all.

 

[x65943]

Oh boy, next you're gonna say I'm anti-free speech because I don't believe Nazis deserve a voice at all.

Yes, I would absolutely say that

If you are in support of for instance European laws that criminalize Holocaust denial, you are in fact against free speech as set out in the first amendment

 

[Xzi]

He is pro violence in terms of riots, that are at least superficially antiviolence in terms of police brutality

He supports one form of violence to end another form of violence

It's not as clear cut as saying he is anti violence at that point when he said he is in support of violence (at least of one form) and doesn't care if people burnt their own neighborhoods

Yeah...I'd say equating violence against human beings with violence against property (and especially corporate property) is at the heart of the miscommunication here. The purpose of the police should be to protect and serve the former, but they too often demonstrate that they only care about protecting and serving the latter.

 

[x65943]

Yeah...I'd say equating violence against human beings with violence against property (and especially corporate property) is at the heart of the miscommunication here. The purpose of the police should be to protect and serve the former, but they too often demonstrate that they only care about protecting and serving the latter.

It's one thing to burn corporate property, and I feel much less bad about that

But it didn't stop at that, small businesses were destroyed too, and not just there but all over the country including in my home state

And of course it's still violence

 

[Sicklyboy]

Yes, I would absolutely say that

If you are in support of for instance European laws that criminalize Holocaust denial, you are in fact against free speech as set out in the first amendment

lol.

lmao even.

I have nothing else to add down this line of discussion now. I've stated my stance quite plainly and I stand by it unwaveringly. Make of it what you will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

 

[supermist]

It's one thing to burn corporate property, and I feel much less bad about that

But it didn't stop at that, small businesses were destroyed too, and not just there but all over the country including in my home state

Do I gotta find more examples for you on this?

It's not the protestors

Ok why not just set the record straight

93% of Black Lives Matter Protests Have Been Peaceful:
https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

At the end of 2020, Trump's DHS has also stated white supremacist extremists are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the US:
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/2020_10_06_homeland-threat-assessment.pdf

Where could some of the 7% of these non peaceful incidents be coming from? Are right wingers intentionally fanning the flames?

AP finds most arrested in protests aren’t leftist radicals
https://apnews.com/article/virus-ou...al-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748

Twitter suspends account of white nationalist group posing as antifa:
https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-suspends-account-white-nationalist-group-posing-as-antifa/

Far-right smear campaign against Antifa exposed:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41036631

White supremacy groups try to infiltrate recent protests and influence the narrative:
https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/pre...courts-amid-covid-19/white-supremacy-protests

3 with ties to white extremism accused of plotting mayhem at protests:
https://www.ajc.com/news/with-ties-...tting-mayhem-protests/GdtpTjwVaapgVZihVtNWeI/

Antifa not the cause of violence at protests:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/

Far-right extremists showing up at BLM protests behind the violence:
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article243553662.html

White agitators bringing arson to a George Floyd protest:
https://www.frontpagelive.com/2020/06/04/white-arsonists-george-floyd-protests/

Threat of "lethal violence" from "lone offenders" motivated by race:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/intellige...ated-violence-makes-mention/story?id=71166595

Richmond riots instigated by white supremacists:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/07/wh...-protesters-instigated-richmond-riots-police/

Proud Boys’ brutally beat Black Lives Matter protesters after Trump Parade:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/09/wa...k-lives-matter-protesters-after-trump-parade/

Leaked Messages Show Far-Right Group's Plans for Portland Violence:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/09/23/patriot-coalition-far-right-chat-logs-violence/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts

Oregon sheriff tells militia members to "have fun killing antifa"



Police arrest Proud Boy protester who pointed gun at Portland rally:
https://www.opb.org/article/2020/09...-protester-who-pointed-gun-at-portland-rally/

Cop drives motorcycle into protester:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/cop-drives-motorcycle-into-protester

Boogaloo Bois fired on Minneapolis police precinct, shouted 'Justice for Floyd'
https://www.startribune.com/charges...precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/
https://www.mediaite.com/news/far-r...after-shooting-at-minneapolis-police-station/

Trump supporters trying to destroy the Oregon's State Capitol doors to gain entry:


Trump supporters use mace on police during a protest at Oregon’s capital:


Right wingers who stormed Oregon State Capitol standoff with Police. Tell them they are traitors and threaten to hang them:

 

[IncredulousP]

It's one thing to burn corporate property, and I feel much less bad about that

But it didn't stop at that, small businesses were destroyed too, and not just there but all over the country including in my home state

And of course it's still violence

Ngl. I'm sure it does suck for those privileged enough to own a business. Can't say I empathize personally, and if I did own a store, I'd be happy as long as no one got hurt. I don't worry about the well being of material possessions.

 

[Xzi]

It's one thing to burn corporate property, and I feel much less bad about that

But it didn't stop at that, small businesses were destroyed too, and not just there but all over the country including in my home state

Well it's also important to understand that agitators and those acting in bad faith will always seek to take advantage of events like these. Splinter groups and even individuals are going to pursue their self-serving agendas. All the more reason why authorities cannot be giving them those opportunities by inciting mass civil unrest with their actions.

 

[x65943]

Do I gotta find more examples for you on this?

It's not the protestors

Ok why not just set the record straight

93% of Black Lives Matter Protests Have Been Peaceful:
https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

At the end of 2020, Trump's DHS has also stated white supremacist extremists are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the US:
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/2020_10_06_homeland-threat-assessment.pdf

Where could some of the 7% of these non peaceful incidents be coming from? Are right wingers intentionally fanning the flames?

AP finds most arrested in protests aren’t leftist radicals
https://apnews.com/article/virus-ou...al-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748

Twitter suspends account of white nationalist group posing as antifa:
https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-suspends-account-white-nationalist-group-posing-as-antifa/

Far-right smear campaign against Antifa exposed:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41036631

White supremacy groups try to infiltrate recent protests and influence the narrative:
https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/pre...courts-amid-covid-19/white-supremacy-protests

3 with ties to white extremism accused of plotting mayhem at protests:
https://www.ajc.com/news/with-ties-...tting-mayhem-protests/GdtpTjwVaapgVZihVtNWeI/

Antifa not the cause of violence at protests:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/

Far-right extremists showing up at BLM protests behind the violence:
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article243553662.html

White agitators bringing arson to a George Floyd protest:
https://www.frontpagelive.com/2020/06/04/white-arsonists-george-floyd-protests/

Threat of "lethal violence" from "lone offenders" motivated by race:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/intellige...ated-violence-makes-mention/story?id=71166595

Richmond riots instigated by white supremacists:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/07/wh...-protesters-instigated-richmond-riots-police/

Proud Boys’ brutally beat Black Lives Matter protesters after Trump Parade:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/09/wa...k-lives-matter-protesters-after-trump-parade/

Leaked Messages Show Far-Right Group's Plans for Portland Violence:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/09/23/patriot-coalition-far-right-chat-logs-violence/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts

Oregon sheriff tells militia members to "have fun killing antifa"



Police arrest Proud Boy protester who pointed gun at Portland rally:
https://www.opb.org/article/2020/09...-protester-who-pointed-gun-at-portland-rally/

Cop drives motorcycle into protester:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/cop-drives-motorcycle-into-protester

Boogaloo Bois fired on Minneapolis police precinct, shouted 'Justice for Floyd'
https://www.startribune.com/charges...precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/
https://www.mediaite.com/news/far-r...after-shooting-at-minneapolis-police-station/

Trump supporters trying to destroy the Oregon's State Capitol doors to gain entry:


Trump supporters use mace on police during a protest at Oregon’s capital:


Right wingers who stormed Oregon State Capitol standoff with Police. Tell them they are traitors and threaten to hang them:

Thinking the riots were by magas is as delusional as my buddy who thought jan 6 was antifa in disguise

 

[supermist]

Thinking the riots were by magas is as delusional as my buddy who thought jan 6 was antifa in disguise

The violence and destruction for much of it was, and I backed that up with various statistics and news articles detailing the arrests of the individuals behind those acts.

 

[x65943]

The violence and destruction for much of it was, and I backed that up with various statistics and news articles detailing the arrests of the individuals behind those acts.

there were millions of dollars of damages over large swathes of the country, looting, arson etc

this was done by hundreds of people or more - anecdotes of a few cherry picked people does not give you an accurate picture of the riots in general

 

[Xzi]

Thinking the riots were by magas is as delusional as my buddy who thought jan 6 was antifa in disguise

C'mon man, why the hell wouldn't people who support a convicted felon for president take advantage of such a scenario? Especially if they're impoverished themselves? The protestors were not a monolith, and neither were the rioters.

 

[x65943]

C'mon man, why the hell wouldn't people who support a convicted felon for president take advantage of such a scenario? Especially if they're impoverished themselves? The protestors were not a monolith, and neither were the rioters.

were there some conservatives taking advantage of the situation? Sure

were they all conservatives like supermist is stating? Obviously not

 

[IncredulousP]

backed that up with various statistics

anecdotes of a few cherry picked people

Cmon dude you're just arguing in bad faith at this point. Statistics are the amalgamation of many many data points. Far from "anecdotes of a few cherry picked people". And more, there were MANY statistical references, so you can't say they cherry picked even the statistics.

were they all conservatives like supermist is stating?

You have a bad habit of strawmanning.

 

[KingVamp]

Lying isn't protected by the 1st amendment.

 

[supermist]

there were millions of dollars of damages over large swathes of the country, looting, arson etc

this was done by hundreds of people or more - anecdotes of a few cherry picked people does not give you an accurate picture of the riots in general

Ok prove this.

 

[x65943]

Lying isn't protected by the 1st amendment.

Lying and beliefs aren't the same thing

If they were, Christians would all be in jail for their belief in desert zombies

Criminalizing free thought and speech is wrong

Holocaust deniers are idiots but they tend to be idiots in good faith - which is distinct from lying

 

[DiscostewSM]

There are people who want to watch the world burn, and if given the opportunity, would join in to make that happen.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Yes, I would absolutely say that

If you are in support of for instance European laws that criminalize Holocaust denial, you are in fact against free speech as set out in the first amendment

And nobody cares because first amendment only exists in the US and has done clearly more harm than good, created when people's voices could only be carried by their arguments, not by money.

Post automatically merged: Aug 7, 2024

Holocaust deniers are idiots but they tend to be idiots in good faith

Their good faith means real harm for others. And between faith and harm, harm is the one that needs to be prevented.

 

[granville]

He is pro violence in terms of riots, that are at least superficially antiviolence in terms of police brutality

He supports one form of violence to end another form of violence

It's not as clear cut as saying he is anti violence at that point when he said he is in support of violence (at least of one form) and doesn't care if people burnt their own neighborhoods

You could compare for instance Mandela and Gandhi, or Malcolm X and MLK to get an idea of antiviolence vs violence in terms of political/societal change

MLK Jr did not like riots, and I can guarantee you that no one you're arguing with here does. Riots by their nature are destructive and unpleasant. That is the intention behind them, to force a demand that has been ignored through other more peaceful means. MLK Jr also became much more understanding of political violence in his later years as he became fed up with the lack of any meaningful progress with peaceful attempts at civil disobedience. Saying these things on the matter-

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that black people's great strumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the KKK, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than justice. Who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice. Who constantly says 'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action'. Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will"

"I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the black person has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."

America would never have abolished slavery without the violence of the Civil War, and likewise the government would never have passed the Civil Rights Acts without rioting. It was not the peaceful protests that convinced people to do the right thing, it was threat of being harmed or killed. Keep in mind that during this era, MLK Jr was not viewed by most of white society as a peaceful man committed to non-violence. He was absolutely associated with the violent riots that occurred and viewed as the person who incited them.

Holocaust deniers are idiots but they tend to be idiots in good faith - which is distinct from lying

This isn't true for most who promote those claims, take it from firsthand experience living in a family where about half of my mother's family (my grandmother's side) are extremely racist and full of literal KKK supporters and outright neo nazis. Holocaust denial is bullshit artistry by design. They don't genuinely believe it didn't happen. They know it did, and they know it killed millions. Saying it didn't gives them an opportunity to sell their idea that jews, socialists, unions, foreigners LGBTQ+ etc (all of the various groups who the nazis attempted to wipe out of existence) were never actually victims and that Hitler wasn't as bad as everyone says. And to dehumanize and spit on the people who died.

Behind closed doors within their close-knit family and friends (and I mean very close-knit as they have to trust you enough to let on what they really think), deniers admit they're aware it's a lie and not a genuine belief. An uncle of mine (my grandmother's brother) actually served in the US Army during WW2 and fought against the nazis. He hates German and Japanese people. Not because of the atrocities they committed, but because they were "dirty foreigners". In truth, he saw these atrocities and didn't deny they happened, but agreed with them. He just also happened to believe that the people committing them should also be gassed and burned alongside them due to their ethnicity. And he came home and instilled these beliefs in his children and grandchildren. They then instilled these same beliefs in their children, and so on. The uncle also taught his kids how to lie in order to better propagate their beliefs in society. They all know what they're saying is bullshit, but they laugh about it because it's just another way to dehumanize the people they hate and recruit others.