Google Stadia launches today to mixed reception over input lag

Discussion in 'GBAtemp & Scene News' started by Chary, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. Teletron1

    Teletron1 Space Tech Engineer

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    I see non technical facts ,every tech person understands this will suck for slow internet but will cater to faster speeds and will perform well when 5g is a normal option for everyone ,still about 2yrs off but by then Google should work out the kinks ,the only positive thing is they have the resources where other startups dont . Wouldn't surprise me if they go the psnow route and allow for some dl content for slower speed ,but for now Stadia will be the bullied new kid on the block :blink:
     
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  2. Pipistrele

    Pipistrele GBAtemp Regular

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    The whole array of decisions like this one completely killed any potential the project could have, really. Initial idea could be quite revolutionary. When necessity to buy games was announced, it still sounded like a decent option for developing countries (where internet is usually cheap and uncapped but hardware is stupid hard) Then they announced that stupid $130 bundle as the only option, basically eliminating that "no need for hardware" advantage - at which point, we get a product that appeals to nobody at all.
     
  3. Maximilious

    Maximilious *whistles his distinct tune*

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    No thanks Google, I'm fine using Moonlight to stream games from my home PC to DeX mode on my phone, or any other device I set Moonlight up on.
     
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  4. whateverg1012

    whateverg1012 Fringe Weaver

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    I thought this had "negative latency"? Guess not.
     
  5. DANTENDO

    DANTENDO I Won year sub Edge mag 1996 hot topic digitiser

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    To anyone who has only a 1080p TV and was expecting Google to giv you 4k gaming i dont kno what to say ok I laughed a little soz :lol:
     
  6. Poketard

    Poketard GBAtemp Regular

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    I see the "negative latency" thing thrown around a few times. It's not possible, not in the least, and I'm going to take this moment to illustrate exactly how not possible it is.

    Here's one method: try and predict the players input with AI. This method is dumb, terrible - honestly, if anyone at google even considered this idea they should be fired. In order for this to be feasible, it'd have to predict at least n frames in advance, where n is latency / frame time. Let's say we have a VERY good scenario where you have a measly 3 frames of latency. It needs to be able to be rolled back if the players inputs don't line up; so it needs to essentially have a "save state" of each previous frame. In order to achieve this, an entire memory dump of the game needs to be generated every. Single. Frame. Let's take a guess that the game uses 6 GB of RAM and 6 GB of VRAM. These aren't unreasonable numbers in the least. Let me tell you; there is no hardware on this planet capable of moving 6-12 GB of data within the time between those frames.

    Ok, but what if we assume they somehow managed that impossible feat? Well, what happens if the players inputs suddenly don't line up? It's rollback time baby! And suddenly, the game becomes a stuttering mess. Completely unplayable, constantly jumping between frames as your inputs barely don't line up with the AIs.

    What if they also run the game again in tandem with regular input lag to prevent the stuttering? Well, to start, you'd have to start another instance of the game for every single frame of latency between, and keep each one of those a "separate" running instance. Nevermind that this wouldn't work for multiplayer games in the least; even with our purported 3 frames of latency, that means the game has to be running 4 times at once, constantly! Increase this number to even something like 10 frames of latency, and - yeah, I don't care who you are, your servers aren't going to be affordably capable of running 10 instances of a modern triple A game at once. Oh, and did I mention each and every one of these needs to ALSO be streamed to you, so your stadia can switch on the fly when your inputs don't match? Even after all that effort, though, the experience will still be awful as you'll still get stuttering - your input delay will be a stuttering mess of inconsistency, and you couldn't reasonably perform any precise actions like this.

    One last thing I'd like to touch on: the idea that they could possibly run an instance of the game for every possible button you could press. No effort here, since it's obvious this is unfeasible, but let's say you have 8 buttons on your controller. That's 2^8th power possible combinations, or 256. Multiply this by itself for every additional frame of latency. At 3 frames of latency, it'd have to be running 16,777,216 different instances of the game. No.
     
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  7. linuxares

    linuxares I'm not a generous god!

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    Well soon Google will pull the plug on it.

     
  8. James_

    James_ *Meowstic noises*

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    lmao i fucking knew it
     
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  9. supernintendo128

    supernintendo128 Advanced Member

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    I'm not surprised. Our internet isn't nearly fast enough to stream a video game down a wire with no input lag. If that wasn't enough, the fact that you have to buy these games individually instead of having access to them all with a monthly fee defeats the entire purpose of streaming video games from the internet.

    People were afraid that video game streaming would replace physical media and downloadable digital games. It's clear now that we have nothing to worry about for now. Stadia is doomed.
     
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  10. Foxi4

    Foxi4 On the hunt...

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    The only feasible solution to the latency problem is collocation centers in major metropolies across the globe, and that's an expensive venture that has to be continuously upgraded with each gaming generation, Shadow figured this out ages ago which is why their service. It's not just a software issue, bandwidth problems are a physical limitation of the transfer medium. You're never really connecting directly to the server via fiberoptic, and the more nodes you hit along the way the longer the response time. It's not something Google will be able to patch with a band-aid - they need to drop big money on the problem, and they'll quickly realise just how razor thin their margin really is once they do.

    The service was tested on a 1 Gigabit connection and it still had latency problems - it's not an issue of "slow Internet", once the bandwidth is satisfied, latency becomes entirely an issue of response time between your computer and the collocation center, and all the nodes you hit along the way. It's not working well because of the lacking on-the-ground infrastructure, not because of the bandwidth.
     
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  11. Justinde75

    Justinde75 Capsule Co's VGM Addict

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    Imagine my shock

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    The only thing this will be useful for are things like tactics games and turn based rpgs. But those are sadly a dying breed nowadays. Nobody wants to play the new hip Call of Duty or Battlefield with 1-2 seconds of input lag
     
  12. osaka35

    osaka35 Instructional Designer

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    Google usually does one of four things:

    1) get into a field that others are doing with some success.
    -If they fail, but others are making money, buy out the successful company and just use their model. (youtube, fitbit, etc)
    -If they succeed it become ubuiqitious and everyone uses it (gmail, android, google docs, google search engine)

    2) get into a field that others are doing with no success. and then proceed to fail at it as well and kill it. Exceptions being what, google home?

    3) Fun little project, imaginative, which everyone loves, but they kill because it's not profitable enough quickly enough

    4) establish a new or nearly-new field and be successful in their venture. This is by far the rarest one. Can't really think of one.

    I'm guessing this'll probably fall under section 2. The "games as a service" is annoying, especially since this is both "games as a service" and "games as a product" as far as cost go, with only "games as a service" being what you get.
     
    Last edited by osaka35, Nov 19, 2019
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  13. Sicklyboy

    Sicklyboy #JOYCONBOYZFOREVER

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    I'd say "color me surprised" except there's two problems.

    1) I'm colorblind
    2) I'm not surprised

    Definitely interested to see if and how they continue to refine the service. In any case, it's just not for me. Only content subscription service I use is Google Play Music; no Netflix, Hulu, Game Pass, etc. I don't really think that Xbox Live and PS+ count for that, and even at that I don't stay subscribed to those all the time either. I prefer to have my games on a disk or cartridge I can hold in my hands.
     
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  14. Bimmel

    Bimmel ~ Game Soundtrack Collector ~

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    Hhhhhheeellllloo gggguuuyyss

    Sent from my Google Stadia Account
     
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  15. James_

    James_ *Meowstic noises*

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    And there isn't a color called 'surprised' either.
     
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  16. Memoir

    Memoir Hi, I'm Cynical!

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    If anybody actually believed Google's claims regarding input latency, they deserve to lose their money. Game streaming is NOT ready for the mainstream. It will not be for a very long time, if ever.
     
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  17. MiiJack

    MiiJack GBAtemp Regular

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    I've got to wonder, will I be unable to come across a game breaking glitch, or a cool glitch with this negative latency :unsure:?
     
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  18. raxadian

    raxadian GBAtemp Maniac

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    wI told you bro, I told you about the Internet in the USA being too crappy for this.
     
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  19. IncredulousP

    IncredulousP GBAtemp's Resident Bastard

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    Unless Google secretly laid out its own internet backbone across the United States, of course it was going to suck. Round-trip latency would be beyond noticeable. Our decades-old hacked-together internet infrastructure in the US is such shit, it needs a complete overhaul, which is not even slightly likely to happen thanks to conservative policies constantly defending and empowering the internet monopolies and oligopolies since pretty much its inception (looking at you FCC).
     
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  20. WhiteMaze

    WhiteMaze GBAtemp Maniac

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    I've been talking about this ever since the announcement of Stadia.

    Data caps? 4k? Games need to be purchased? Monthly fees? None of these matter.

    The real and only issue with streaming is input lag. Try out any other streaming service available right now. Not a single one, has unnoticeable input lag.

    Sure, all of them are playable. But after 35 minutes of gameplay, you feel sick to your stomach, just due to the horrific lag between your actions, and what happens on the screen. It's a similar feeling to being seasick or carsick.

    And I'm not even counting competitive games. Any skill based, competitive game is literally unplayable. You'll be decimated by other opponents who don't have input lag like you do.

    A higher bandwidth will help you stream 4k but it will NOT reduce input lag. Input lag is related to ping and latency. You can increase your bandwidth to 5 Terabytes per second. If your distance to the servers is anything more than a few miles, you'll still have horrible input lag. Because the amount of time for you to get a response from the server, is still the same.

    The ONLY way to fix this, is by using higher quality cabling and redo the entire server technology and infrastructure, to allow for faster data transfer. Possibly with fiber optic cabling. Now imagine the hundreds of millions this costs..

    As it stands, streaming games is absolutely useless.

    I even made a Temper Tantrums comic strip about this exact issue:

    https://gbatemp.net/threads/temper-tantrums-38-stadia.537588/
     
    Last edited by WhiteMaze, Nov 19, 2019
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