Hacking GameCube Aspect Scaling?

[drfsupercenter]

OK so, this has been bugging me for quite some time.

I'm using an HDTV, using component cables, with my Wii. Since it is 16:9 I have my Wii set to 16:9 mode, same with the TV.

But every time I play a GameCube game on my Wii, the TV stretches it out and I have to manually change it to pillarbox, then back again when I'm done. Regardless if the GameCube game is in progressive mode or not.

Does there happen to be some homebrew out there that can pillarbox GameCube games so the TV doesn't stretch them? I have never really understood why the Wii couldn't do this on its own.

Along that topic, same thing happens with Virtual Console games. Now, I know on Super Smash Bros. Brawl, those Masterpieces, even though they are time-limited demos, they DO aspect scale. Why can't the real ones do that as well?

 

[FIX94]

But every time I play a GameCube game on my Wii, the TV stretches it out and I have to manually change it to pillarbox, then back again when I'm done. Regardless if the GameCube game is in progressive mode or not.

Does there happen to be some homebrew out there that can pillarbox GameCube games so the TV doesn't stretch them? I have never really understood why the Wii couldn't do this on its own.
Only a few gamecube games can use 16:9 and only japanese and some us versions can use progressive.

QUOTE(drfsupercenter @ Sep 12 2010, 09:11 PM) Along that topic, same thing happens with Virtual Console games. Now, I know on Super Smash Bros. Brawl, those Masterpieces, even though they are time-limited demos, they DO aspect scale. Why can't the real ones do that as well?

The virtual console games have aspect scale for me, I don't know why it doesn't work for you.

 

[drfsupercenter]

Most of the games I own can use progressive. I may just have gotten lucky or something but every GameCube game I play on my Wii asks if I want to enable progressive mode.

And I know the games themselves don't support 16:9 - what I'm asking is if there's a way to mess with the Wii's display so it shows it with black bars on the sides.

The virtual console games have aspect scale for me, I don't know why it doesn't work for you.

Which games do you have? It might be possible that yours are newer or something, I have some of the really old ones like Super Mario Bros., etc, and those definitely don't.

 

[dronesplitter]

This is normal and, as far as I know, there's nothing you can do about it. The Wii outputs only anamorphic widescreen. I also have to switch to sidebar mode when I play content that is 4:3 aspect ratio.
I know that Soul Calibur II, Eternal Darkness, and Star Fox Adventures support both 16:9 and progressive scan. A high number of games support the progressive scan option but unfortunately lack 16:9.

 

[giantpune]

i dont think there is any homebrew that does this. but its pretty easy to just do it with your TV. when playing a GC game that doesnt support widescreen, just set your TV to 4/3 mode. on mine, its only 3 buttons to press. and then 3 more buttons to press to set it back to 16/9.

 

[Knocks]

Using your TV is actually an inferior option, because it ends up squeezing a picture that should have never been stretched out in the first place. It was a design flaw on Nintendo's part not to output Virtual Console and other 4:3 content with black bars as a default.

 

[giantpune]

inferior option to what? i think there are only 2 options: look at the game stretched out to 16/9 or set your tv to 4/3.

 

[drfsupercenter]

I know how to use 4:3 on my TV. That's exactly what I do.

The problem is just when I don't have the remote handy, I just have to deal with it...

I know that Soul Calibur II, Eternal Darkness, and Star Fox Adventures support both 16:9 and progressive scan. A high number of games support the progressive scan option but unfortunately lack 16:9.

Hmm, I don't have any of those. I might get them to see if my Wii does it or not.

Anyone know if it's possible to extract .wads of the Masterpiece games from Brawl? Like Super Mario Bros.? That supports scaling where the normal VC version of SMB doesn't.

 

[marc_max]

Using your TV is actually an inferior option, because it ends up squeezing a picture that should have never been stretched out in the first place. It was a design flaw on Nintendo's part not to output Virtual Console and other 4:3 content with black bars as a default.

That's wrong.
If Nintendo implements the black bars on VC they will look worse.

The Wii can only output 640x480 pixels. Even if you set it a 16:9, it still outputs the same resolution, the only difference is that the image is anamorphic.
Anamorphic means that a 16:9 image is squeezed to a normal 4:3 image, then the TV stretches it again to get the widescreen effect. This looks great for all 16:9 Wii games, because even if there is a bit of image quality loss, you gain a wide camera in 3D platform/action games, or more space in menus.
However...
If you add black bars to VC won't look better. Because in order to do that:
1 - You must squeeze the image to add the black bars, losing some quality.
2 - The TV will stretch back the image.
That means you are making smaller the image then bigger again. And it's impossible to do that without losing quality.
Even if the VC games work on lower resolutions than the Wii, they loss quality too. At least, I can notice that the image looks exactly vertically, but a bit blurry horizontally. It also depends a lot on the rescaling of your TV.
If Nintendo don't put black bars ir will be better. Just set your TV to 4:3 while playing a 4:3 game. Why? Because the TV will show the image WITHOUT any squeeze or stretch, the TV will show the image in its original resolution.

For that reason, it's better to play Megaman 9, Megaman 10 and Resident Evil Archives setting the Wii to 4:3. Because these games add the black bars. If you set your Wii to 4:3 and your TV to 4:3 while playing these games, they look a lot better (even the NES graphics like Megaman).


The GC games on Wii don't have this problem, because they don't put black bars so you are forced to set your TV to 4:3. Some games like Soul Calibur 2 or F-Zero GX have a widescreen mode, this mode is exactly the same as the Wii 16:9. Maybe the Wii does a better job creating an anamorphic image due to the hardware, but I don't know.

 

[drfsupercenter]

By the way it's 720x480

The image is usually back-stretched anyway back to 640. And for anamorphic it's stretched to approximately 848.

Yes, I know all about video modes and qualities. I know it might look a little worse. Honestly, on a 1080p display, it doesn't look all that great to begin with, a little pillarboxing doesn't visibly look worse to me. Mario Party 8 does the same thing - despite that game sucking to begin with, it just pillarboxes it... not sure if Nintendo was too lazy to make it native widescreen or what.

Ultimately it's a trade off. Convenience vs. quality. I thought Nintendo usually aimed their consoles at people who aren't super tech savvy. Kinda like how the DSi XL still has a fail-ishly small screen resolution, but yet it still looks good anyway.

So yes I know it looks a little worse if the Wii adds black bars. But I'm okay with it. That's really why I was asking about it...
Ideally I think if we could get one VC game of each console that did aspect scaling, other games could be injected into those to make a whole set of aspect scaled VC games. Which is why I asked about Brawl - those ones DO aspect scale.

 

[Hielkenator]

The games in brawl are no VC wads. they are hard copied in Smash brothers. Thus providing SSB 's aspect scaling. Everything is working as it should with cube and VC games.

With a wide screen tv, you actually have a normal tv too. Witch is switchable. There is NO problem. it's not software related.It's actualy your TV that is the reason for your "trouble".
My TV switches automaticly.

 

[Hielkenator]

The games in brawl are no VC wads. they are hard copied in Smash brothers. Thus providing SSB 's aspect scaling. Everything is working as it should with cube and VC games.

With a wide screen tv, you acually have a normal tv too. Wich is switchable. There is NO problem.
In the past you would hear people complaining about borders on a 3:4 screen. That is Something more of a problem.

 

[tueidj]

By the way it's 720x480

[...]
Yes, I know all about video modes and qualities.

Clearly you don't, otherwise you'd know the wii's framebuffer can only handle a max width of 640 pixels.

 

[Jacobeian]

By the way it's 720x480

[...]
Yes, I know all about video modes and qualities.

Clearly you don't, otherwise you'd know the wii's framebuffer can only handle a max width of 640 pixels.

nope, internal framebuffer (in GPU) is 640x480 but external is whatever you want (its only limit is main memory size)... the video hardware takes the external framebuffer and outputs it: video hardware limit is 720x480 (720x574 in PAL) so you could render more than 640x480 in two-pass, i.e the Wii is perfectly able to display a 720 pixels wide picture. If you only do one copy (max 640x480), you can even stretch it through hardware up to 720x480 (but it obviously looks wrong unless you rendered initially with the later upscaling in mind)

Now, 4:3 TV screen can generally only display a limited number of pixels, approximately 640 (the rest is hidden by overscan), depends on TV model. 16:9 TV can generally show more pixels but the "stretching" aspect has nothing to do with the number of pixels, it's the nature of 16:9 video signal, the input video signal (Wii output) is "stretched" by the TV during active scan.

 

[drfsupercenter]

Yeah, I was referring to the fact that NTSC is, by definition, 720x480. If the Wii can only produce an image of 640 pixels wide, it would just be stretched to 720 when output to a TV and then shrunk again by the TV.

My TV switches automaticly.
What sort of TV do you have? Mine's a Panasonic Viera, and all I know is you can switch it to 4:3 mode but it will STAY that way unless switched back. Meaning I have to do it manually every time I play a VC or GameCube game. Also, it considers 480i and 480p two different input sources even though I'm using component cables - so if I set the 480i to 4:3 and leave 480p at 16:9 that will work... but then I have to disable progressive mode in GameCube games and take a quality hit.

Though now that you mention it, maybe the TV *is* the problem. I was a camp counselor for a tech camp a couple summers ago, and brought my Wii for the campers to play both Brawl and RockBand 2 on - and when I plugged it into the camp's projector using component cables, it would automatically become 16:9. Sadly I didn't try playing any VC games, I should have seen it if switched back to 4:3. As normally it was 4:3 unless the aspect tag tells it to switch.

QUOTEThe games in brawl are no VC wads. they are hard copied in Smash brothers. Thus providing SSB 's aspect scaling.

Ah, alright. I have never actually tried to disassemble the SSBB disc in WiiScrubber so I wasn't sure. However, someone mentioned newer VC titles doing aspect scaling - does anyone know if there is at least one for each console offered on VC? Because if so I wonder if it would be possible to inject older games like Super Mario Bros. into them and have an aspect scaled version...

 

[tueidj]

nope, internal framebuffer (in GPU) is 640x480 but external is whatever you want (its only limit is main memory size)... the video hardware takes the external framebuffer and outputs it: video hardware limit is 720x480 (720x574 in PAL) so you could render more than 640x480 in two-pass, i.e the Wii is perfectly able to display a 720 pixels wide picture. If you only do one copy (max 640x480), you can even stretch it through hardware up to 720x480 (but it obviously looks wrong unless you rendered initially with the later upscaling in mind)

Multi-pass rendering is only used for separate fields when using the anti-aliased modes, it still can't be used to render more than 640 pixels wide. The only way to get a true 720 pixel width frame is to write to the YUY2 format XFB directly, which games just don't do.

 

[Hielkenator]

Yeah, I was referring to the fact that NTSC is, by definition, 720x480. If the Wii can only produce an image of 640 pixels wide, it would just be stretched to 720 when output to a TV and then shrunk again by the TV.

My TV switches automaticly.
What sort of TV do you have? Mine's a Panasonic Viera, and all I know is you can switch it to 4:3 mode but it will STAY that way unless switched back. Meaning I have to do it manually every time I play a VC or GameCube game. Also, it considers 480i and 480p two different input sources even though I'm using component cables - so if I set the 480i to 4:3 and leave 480p at 16:9 that will work... but then I have to disable progressive mode in GameCube games and take a quality hit.

Though now that you mention it, maybe the TV *is* the problem. I was a camp counselor for a tech camp a couple summers ago, and brought my Wii for the campers to play both Brawl and RockBand 2 on - and when I plugged it into the camp's projector using component cables, it would automatically become 16:9. Sadly I didn't try playing any VC games, I should have seen it if switched back to 4:3. As normally it was 4:3 unless the aspect tag tells it to switch.

QUOTEThe games in brawl are no VC wads. they are hard copied in Smash brothers. Thus providing SSB 's aspect scaling.

Ah, alright. I have never actually tried to disassemble the SSBB disc in WiiScrubber so I wasn't sure. However, someone mentioned newer VC titles doing aspect scaling - does anyone know if there is at least one for each console offered on VC? Because if so I wonder if it would be possible to inject older games like Super Mario Bros. into them and have an aspect scaled version...

I've a Samsung B650 But after looking again at the specs of my TV, it is'nt possible to make it switch the aspect automaticly. Tnis is due to the Wii.
Digital TV programs Switch on the fly with this baby.

I know some Wiiware games have aspect ratio fix. Castlevania for example.

 

[drfsupercenter]

Ah well yeah, TV programs are automatic here too. Of course you can force them to change, like I can stretch QAM programs, but why anyone would want to is beyond me.

I'm not really referring to Wiiware as most of those HAVE a widescreen mode, as they're newer. All of the Virtual Console titles I have on my Wii though are older VC releases and don't do aspect scaling, which is why I was wondering if the new ones do.

 

[Arm73]

nope, internal framebuffer (in GPU) is 640x480 but external is whatever you want (its only limit is main memory size)... the video hardware takes the external framebuffer and outputs it: video hardware limit is 720x480 (720x574 in PAL) so you could render more than 640x480 in two-pass, i.e the Wii is perfectly able to display a 720 pixels wide picture. If you only do one copy (max 640x480), you can even stretch it through hardware up to 720x480 (but it obviously looks wrong unless you rendered initially with the later upscaling in mind)

Multi-pass rendering is only used for separate fields when using the anti-aliased modes, it still can't be used to render more than 640 pixels wide. The only way to get a true 720 pixel width frame is to write to the YUY2 format XFB directly, which games just don't do.

Why does everybody get it wrong all the time ?
It's been happening ever since the Wii first launched ........................EVERYBODY thinks that it's just 640x480 stretched......
I've been telling you time and time again, when you set your Wii at 480p and widescreen ( from the setting menu FYI ) it switches to 848x640 WIDESCREEN. It's NOT streched......you do actually get MORE horizontal pixels to fit the extra space.
Unfortunately, some games only support a FAKE widescreen ( anamorphic ) like for example Rayman raving rabbits.
The game aspect ratio looks OK on the widescreen TV because they actually use a 640x480 resolution and then they squeeze the output so that when your TV stretches it , it looks alright, but you do actually get a less then ideal image.
Games that really support widescreen ( hor+ ) they run at 848x640 and the image on screen is not stretched by the TV, in fact graphics look sharper ( Metroid Prime Corruption, Red Steel 2 , Super Mario Galaxy and so on ) .
UNFORTUNATELY NOBODY pays attention, and it's easy to dismiss the Wii as a non-HD console.

AN EASY way to find out if a game is tricking you into using anamorphic ( fake widescreen at 640x480 stretched ) is to look at the white warning screen before a game begins.
If your Wii is set to 480p and widescreen, and the game is only outputting at 640x480, you'll see the warning screen stretched ( like the letters and drawings of the Wii remote look fat ). You might not notice the stretching in game though, because it's been optimized to look anamorphic .
If the warning screen looks perfect ( and I mean the letters are displayed correctly and the image is sharper ) then the game is supporting 848x640.

Another way to discover the truth, is by pressing the Wii home button while in game. If the Home menu looks stretched ( fat letters and larger oval boxes ) then the game isn't supporting the Wii maximum resolution obviously.

If you don't believe me, press the HOME button while playing Rayman, and take a screenshot ( if you can, I can't at the moment ).
Then play Super Mario Galaxy, and press HOME, then take another screenshot.
You'll notice that in rayman the HOME menu is stretched , while in SMG it looks normal. That's why it uses more pixels, therefore the Wii CAN output at 848x480.
But of course most of the people don't even realize when their TV is stretching a 4:3 movie or is displaying a true 16:9 image, in fact in most houses I visit, people are too stupid to understand how to set the widescreen modes of their TVs and in most cases they are set at ZOOM or 4:3 stretched ( making Jay Leno look even more fat ) so let alone you guys understand how your Wii works.

Anyway it's as easy as pressing a button on your TV remote to switch to 4:3 for games that do not support widescreen. I can't believe you don't have your TV remote nearby when playing, I always keep mines close by to constantly adjust the volume or switching on/off, so I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[drfsupercenter]

If you don't believe me, press the HOME button while playing Rayman, and take a screenshot ( if you can, I can't at the moment ).
Then play Super Mario Galaxy, and press HOME, then take another screen shot.
You'll notice that in rayman the HOME menu is stretched , while in SMG it looks normal. That's why it uses more pixels, therefore the Wii CAN output at 848x640.
But of course most of the people don't even realize when their TV is stretching a 4:3 movie or is displaying a true 16:9 image, in fact in most houses I visit, people are too stupid to understand how to set the widescreen modes of their TVs and in most cases they are set at ZOOM or 4:3 stretched ( making Jay leno look even more fat ) so let alone you guys understand how your Wii works.

You mean 848x480.

But yeah, I know. Trust me, I'm a stickler for proper aspect ratios. I always can't stand when TVs in restaurants/lounges/etc stretch standard analog cable to fill widescreen TVs, I'm so tempted to go pester whoever has the remote and tell them to fix the darn thing.
That's one reason I want the games displayed in their proper aspect ratio on my TV.

Yes I know you can use the remote to change the TV setting. That's not my question. Honestly, people who just go "USE YOUR TV REMOTE" aren't helping at all, I already knew this before posting, and it's what I DO for the time being. However since my TV is almost always set to component input, for playing GameCube games and such it's often easier to just press power on the TV and Wii, pop the disc in, and play the game (of course the Wii remote is needed for a few seconds to start the disc, I wish Nintendo would fix that so you could use a GC controller to do so)

Anyway though Arm73, thanks for the info, I wasn't complaining about you, more the other people posting here. I shall try Super Mario Galaxy vs. the other games and see what happens.
However, even if the games ARE using anamorphic widescreen, why is that a bad thing? It may be lower quality, sure, but it's not the same as simply stretching the game from 4:3 to 16:9. The graphics are often redrawn etc.

Random question, but does SSBB do 848x480 or is that anamorphic?

Also:
QUOTEUNFORTUNATELY NOBODY pays attention, and it's easy to dismiss the Wii as a non-HD console.

That's because most people don't consider 480p to be HD. In America, everyone wants 720 or 1080. Yeah I admit the Wii's graphics aren't quite as high resolution as the Xbox 360 or PS3 but I don't complain about it not being HD - I just got the component cables and set it up to use progressive mode, etc.