Fusée Gelée FAQ by Kate Temkin

Discussion in 'Switch - Tutorials' started by Salazar-DE, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Fan

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    Waiting on information to become "disclosable" for the sake of a company getting a leg up to produce a commercial product that makes it useless --

    Seeing a higher virtue in the principle of open source (there is - and I even mean apart from "free"), and then - not even sharing the basic working principle, so people could understand what you are working on - so you as a figure with a clear name out in the open, can do this as an accepted piece of work that allows someone else - with a profit motive - a headstart to closing down what you opened.

    People are now recommending to themselves to just wait, in silence - because the payoff will come, guaranteed - in the afterlife, If you buy a screwdriver now. ;) (Playing with concepts here - for many people it will come in a few months).

    If we are talking about open source principles in the notion of FOSS - none of this makes any sense.
    If we are talking about open source principles in the notion of the publicly known person, that does something "charitable" and is getting "reputation credit" for it - it makes some sense.
    -

    On the principle of "if you are given something for free, you should be thankful, kind, and polite". This operates on the notion of "you don't know how long it might last" - which is in basic strokes the "charity principle". If you want to operate under that - be my guest, its the fastest way for people to loose ethics, morals and self worth.

    Here is the principal I usually prefer to work from. Its basically the assumption, that all the unpaid work gets not done because of "charity", but because its fun, because it leads to better concepts and outcomes, if a few people do it at once. Especially if your cost of production is zero, after the initial concept and product development stages. You say "it is" and for approximately two, tree million people "it is".

    To put it simple, the economics of open source are so "insane", that if you can do it (also financially), and have fun doing it, not only do you get something thats better than you could have created on your own, and that fixes a need you had - the entire world gets it as well. For free.

    At which point the notion that you could be missing out on charity - *poof* just isn't there conceptually. ;)

    Then there is concept on how you have to talk to those people.

    In person - again, jovial-ly polite, with a wink in the corner of your eye, and an appreciation of what they have done. In about the same vain, as appreciating an artists creation.

    In the public - in the face of a few hundred people, that were taught, that facebook was the model of the internet life - and always smiling, always being polite, and always appearing so god darn conservative - it hurts - you tell them when people can tell them literally anything, reverse their entire public positions, make hard to uphold statements - of suspect moral value, that only are agreed upon out of some kind of fear of missing out... - that this doesn't help any open source project at all.

    Nor does "we just have to silently sit here, and not say anything for a while - maybe smile a little" and good things will come. :)

    The guy raising hell in a handbasket (with moderation), probably cares more about the project being a success than the silent guy with a smile next to him, that mostly is happy - because he got told he now can go out and buy something. ;)

    Also - creating more confusion, with a public release, then promising to clear it up as soon as your "gag order" ends,.. ;) Not such a good idea. Maybe have one ore two people voicing that as well. As long as they arent trying undermine you by generating this opinion only - let them voice things.

    The 12 people already trying to lobby for a "sanatized environment" in which every one just has to show "believe" and "be a little polite" maybe shouldnt be the only guidelines available for liberal - and especially hacker communities.

    Here is your psychology self test. If you sound more conservative than your dad, in telling everyone to not criticize things openly - chances are, you dont have a hackers mindset, or a liberal political orientation. ;)

    Live and let live. Also keep your facebook likes at home - if only I would be able to decide. They are no good here. motivation doesnt need to be derived from quantifyable mass approval.

    The more "high level" the work or career path of a person is/has become - the more concepts like altruism, or being remembered for what you did - become deciding factors over any amounts of likes you could give them. You get "rare" (but 0 cost reproducable) stuff for free. Of course you like that. Thats basically a given. ;) Now wheres the challenge in that?

    TDLR; critical voices wont mess this up for you. If they act somewhat reasonable - and are not in it for criticisms sake alone.

    Uh, and I very much like to read my own words here --- UH, those words are so great. I'm really motivated, to write more, so I could read them... ;) (Not sure, how people think that this works as motivation. ;) ) (Here is the trick: If someone really likes his own words, he doesn't need you - does he? Would probably write a diary then.. ;) )
     
    Last edited by notimp, Apr 11, 2018
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  2. reaper527

    reaper527 GBAtemp Regular

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    the complexity involved will also likely change since the newer the firmware, the more exploits have been patched. as such, you might be able to use an entry point to get FG/CFW going easily with all software on one firmware, but require a 3rd party modchip on a newer one.

    ultimately, we won't know for sure how things look until enduser releases start to come out and we can see how everything works.
     
  3. leonmagnus99

    leonmagnus99 GBAtemp Psycho!

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    kate did post something on twitter mentioning a very cheap switch modchip.

    what was that about?
    and will every fw need it, even 3.0 and below? or will only 3.1+-4.1/5 need that?

    edit: just saw it in the other switch thread, seems that no fw will need any modchip, good stuff.
     
    Last edited by leonmagnus99, Apr 11, 2018
  4. Kerbangman

    Kerbangman GBAtemp Fan

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    Kind of getting the jist what your saying Notimp but the Google translation is sort off making it sound a bit odd :) I'm guessing your using Google translation.
     
  5. TheCyberQuake

    TheCyberQuake Certified Geek

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    Most people here haven't been blindly following though. Most of us have just been given fairly good reason to believe them. Most of us will and have called out a devs bs when it's actually warranted.
    We just don't feel right now that it is warranted. Nothing wrong with honest debate and reasoning.
     
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  6. guily6669

    guily6669 GbaTemp is my Drug

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    Maybe it means its something kinda more homemade like buy a few stuff and solder them together to make the chip, or use any other already common cheap chip that is out there, no idea...
     
  7. TotalInsanity4

    TotalInsanity4 GBAtemp Supreme Overlord

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    The fact that she mentions no soldering required and that it's not dangerous to the Switch to me implies that it'll be Arduino-based
     
  8. guily6669

    guily6669 GbaTemp is my Drug

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    I wouldnt want to buy a arduino my self... But maybe it could... On the PS4 now they modded a cheap wifi module chip to hack it without requiring the PC\android.

    I want by software on my 3.02, but I'm still waiting to see what TX will bring to the table, they might actually have more features in it than just a chip to hack and install software, no idea.

    I remember the cool LCD on the Xbox original.
     
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  9. ktemkin

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    There's a lot more here than I can easily respond to, so apologies if I miss posts or gloss over points.

    This is correct-- while there likely will be software chains around for these things in the future, I don't see them as coming along as quickly as f-g. We don't have a non-coldboot exploit chain at all for 5.0.0-- and we haven't looked yet, as we've had other things to focus on and coldboot works. We do have one for 4.1.0, but it's centered around a couple of exploits that we don't want to burn-- we're hoping to use them to get an opportunity to poke around inside T214/Mariko.

    I don't view you as particularly hostile, no. I don't know if challenge is generally a good thing-- sometimes you do have to accept that other people have different ethics or viewpoints from yourself and let that pass, especially if they're just doing stuff for fun-- but I don't view your post as hostile.

    Jamais Vu (1.0.0 TrustZone hack) isn't my bug, but has been written up, and is just awaiting someone with the skills to have time to do a public interpretation. Déjà Vu is currently centered around the exploit I mentioned above, and we definitely want to hold onto that for as long as it's applicable. It's entirely a Switch bug, too, so I don't see it as being something that needs responsible disclosure.

    For Déjà Vu, absolutely. (explained in last quote)

    I don't agree that things like tweeting are ego. This is something I work on because I find it a lot of fun to hack on things, and there's definitely an aspect in which it makes me happy when seeing the results of things makes other people happy. There's also an aspect in which I hope that showing these things are possible inspires people to want to learn e.g. reverse engineering. This stuff is cool; and I want to share the excitement with others and lift them up as much as I can.

    You don't have to believe me on that or like that that's my goal. I won't hold it against you if you don't. :)

    I honestly support people updating when it makes sense; and I recognize that there's a conflict between holding back information and enabling others to make reasonable decisions about that. I don't like or feel good about secrecy, and I know it has implications. I've tried to be as clear as I can about the costs regarding updating without crossing the line into giving things away.

    I think we've been pretty clear that 4.1.0 will eventually see a non-coldboot, software-only exploit with the same level of power. That's actually been posted on the ReSwitched Discord's FAQ for months, but I know the message gets skewed as its gets communicated over to other places. That's part of why I'm here, now-- I want to help clear things up.

    The interactions between the operating system and the bootloader-- say on reboot-- are actually fairly limited; and knowing what any of them are is enough to point people at the particular section of bootrom that's vulnerable. That's why I'm not commenting on Fusée Gelée and how it relates to software-only solutions right now. I have said e.g. above that since there's no public way of getting the privileges necessary to run things, 4.1.0 isn't going to see a pure software solution that the public can use at the time that f-g is released. Software exploits will likely come in time; and it's possible we'll come up with things that are even easier than f-g.

    I'm not sure if they'll take it seriously enough. I don't know how they are internally-- but I can't just assume they'll fail to do anything and skip disclosure. Honestly, I don't think a "security advisory" is really a bad thing, either-- there are definitely applications of Tegra chips that I and/or the public don't know about. If giving NVIDIA notice gives them time to explain exactly what's dangerous and allow their customers to remove and replace units from places where the vulnerability can cause harm, I consider that a win, and well worth delaying some public switch hacks by a few months.

    I'll also say that my fear that vendors won't take the vulnerability seriously is a huge reason I'm so keen to get things out there-- and why I provided a date after which I'll tell the public what's going on that I've said was non-negotiable. I want to make sure this doesn't get hidden, and that people understand exactly what f-g can and can't accomplish, to minimize FUD while also letting people understand the actual risks are associated with using a vulnerable device.

    It changes this from an exploit that's going to be usable before the affected people know it's a thing to something that people may have a chance to react to. Making the vulnerability public without disclosure really increases the odds someone is capable of using it to do bad.

    I didn't really give NVIDIA a chance to sell-off stock; though. I've said publicly multiple times that there are bugs in Tegra processors well before NVIDIA reached out to me seeking disclosure. If anything, I think telling the public that these vulnerabilities exist while pursuing disclosure helps developers interested in using Tegra chips in the future ask the right question.

    I've already said that while pure-software stuff is doable on 4.1.0; it'll be a wait. As far as I'm remembering, the only part of the chain that could require multiple tries to work is PegaSwitch, which is our browser-based entry point, and I haven't even tried the browser entry point that'll eventually be public to see how reliable it is. SciresM did the work to get our non-coldboot exploit working on 4.1.0; not me. :)

    Yeah, that's hard-- especially as everyone has a different view as to how inconvenient things are. I don't know of a way to communicate this better without more details.

    Incidentally, the 'inconvenience' verbiage came from SciresM and I discussing our respective views on updating. I think SciresM is more towards the opinion that people should hold back more often, where I'm more of the opinion that updating can be a good and reasonable option sometimes. The way we wound up phrasing things is a compromise between views.

    (I'm going to assume this meant "on the hacking side". If not I'm not sure what hacking site you're referring to.)

    Updating to latest just closes the possibility of using software exploits launched from Horizon, which can make setup more difficult. I know you'd like to know how much, but I unfortunately don't have a good way of qualifying that. As I've mentioned, if you're suffering from not being able to use your 3.0.1+ Switch, you probably do want to upgrade and just risk things being more inconvenient in the future. Worst comes to worst, if you decide you can't tolerate the inconvenience, you upgrade and then wind up having to figure out a modchip.

    The downgrade protection fuses literally mean nothing to a system with f-g, which can entirely skip the downgrade check. Incidentally, SciresM actually accidentally bricked one of his systems in a way such that it was always failing the downgrade checks, and he's been able to use f-g to get that system up and running again.

    I don't think that's clear at all, nor do I want to confirm or deny this. Sorry.

    I think you're making a bunch of assumptions here, and that's maybe not a great idea. I'm not saying you're necessarily right or wrong; just that I don't think your assumptions are founded.

    I don't think this contradicts. This is talking about vulnerabilities that aren't f-g; not because f-g doesn't work on 4.1.0, but because it's possible we may come up with vulnerabilities that are even nicer on 4.1.0 in the future.

    I'm being as clear as I feel I can, and adding clarifications e.g. here where I think it helps. There will be different names for the the ways you can use f-g eventually; and I'll be fully open about everything once the summer rolls around and I'm not putting the disclosure timeline in jeopardy.

    I know and have said about that this "bring your own exploit" business makes development exclusive, and that's exclusionary and I really don't like it-- I just don't see a way around it. I would love to get more developers and more perspective, and that's why my release date for f-g is tied to my disclosure timeline and not in particular to Atmosphère's release.

    I've tried to point out approximately what the difficulty would be for some of the options to kind of provide this, but this is a hard thing to accomplish. In this case, providing details that are more specific really points a finger at vulnerability details, so there's not much I'm comfortable sharing. I've shared what I could-- as a data point, some of the other teams have outright stated that they think I've shared too much already and made things obvious. I don't agree or necessarily care about their opinons, but c'est la vie.

    Well, this isn't the case. This has been disclosed to Nintendo, too-- as NVIDIA shares their vulnerability findings with downstream customers. It's more general malicious actors that I'd be worried about.

    See above-- but I don't think I'd advise specifically updating to 4.1.0 unless that gives you enough access to the games you want.

    I'm also super glad that we can do a lot of our work in the open. I hope there's a lot more of it in the future-- and I'd love to stream some of it. :)

    I find the requirement disheartening as well, but I think this is the right way to do things, for now. I've explained my rationale above; feel free to ask questions.

    I'm not sure why people are against communication, here. There were definite benefits to talking about f-g in the first place; including that it demonstrates that Tegra chips are vulnerable-- which hopefully influences buying decisions in the future and puts pressure on NVIDIA to seek as much of a fix as they can. After that there seemed to be definitely benefits to talking about more details, even in the limited sense that I'm able to. I've tried to give people more information than the nothing they would have had so they could have more of an idea whether it's be a good idea to e.g. pre-order a modchip or update their system. I know it can be frustrating to not get full disclosure, and that more information would help people to make a better or more conclusive decision, but full disclosure isn't an option until this summer. I don't think that's a reason to hold back information.

    I don't have specific answers to your questions, unfortunately-- but I think it sounds like the main purpose of this Switch is as a gaming device and maybe you should upgrade and enjoy playing games with your son.

    I don't think that asking for clarification is criticism. It might be rude to push me to answer something I said I wouldn't, but I don't think there's harm in answer.

    I don't think I've said anything about opening the console or not. See above for my views on updating?

    I'm not sure where you got this impression, or why you're confident about things enough to claim you know about the internal values or working of ReSwitched. This is also easily disprovable just from public information--Hedgeberg has tested out f-g on stream. I don't see it as great opsec to enumerate how many people have access to the vulnerability, but we've long had a policy of only giving exploit details to those who actually want to know them and are in a position where they can use them to help. This is a basic security precaution and not about trust.

    I'm actually not sure how this is relevant to the broader discussion. Based on your post history, I can tell that you strongly support TX and the option they're providing, and you're welcome to that, but I think throwing around generic unfounded criticism of RS doesn't do much good and distracts from me answering community questions. :)

    I don't think they're obviously more convenient, as they exist right now. They're both inherently however-tethered-you-consider-PegaSwitch, take a bunch of time to run, and rely on a pegaswitch entry point.

    That's not correct-- everyone on a current hardware revision will be able to install and use CFW the day it's released, if they're willing to put in the effort and potentially take on some minor risk.

    I'm actually not sure what you mean by this entire post? Sorry about that-- I'd love to address your ideas, but unfortunately I can't figure out your meaning. :(

    That was about me having fun by trying to see if a DIY, cheap modchip option is reasonable. It turns out it is. As you've noted, it's not necessary on any firmware. I just really like the idea that the open exchange of knowledge -- especially when profit's not a motive -- can result in creation of neat options for the community. ^-^

    Yep; that's exactly what it means. :)

    I don't think this has been at all implied-- and you'd be hard pressed to find a way to make a solder-less Arduino option that even remotely fits in the Switch case. :)

    I should also clarify that the DIY option isn't solderless. :)
     
  10. Memoir

    Memoir FTS I'm Out

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    Wow. You're something else. Very communicative as to what's going on. I like that.
     
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  11. TotalInsanity4

    TotalInsanity4 GBAtemp Supreme Overlord

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    I suppose I forgot that you said it'd actually fit in the Switch :P i just mentally connected "maker board" with Arduino I suppose lol

    So, I suppose the permanent hardmod is a bit more "dangerous" than the other methods, to use your terminology from the FAQ?
     
  12. mythamp

    mythamp Newbie

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    Hi Kate, thanks for participating and bringing more clarity. I had a question, my switch came with 3.0.2, should I just upgrade to 4.1.0 as you have stated anything above 3.0.1 is in the same state as 4.1.0? Have you tested 3.0.2 with your exploits? I know you have recommended older firmware is preferred but if the exploits have been closed beyond 3.0.1 might as well upgrade to 4.1.0 using Kirby Star Allies, no?
     
    Last edited by mythamp, Apr 12, 2018
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  13. Earth4Heaven

    Earth4Heaven Newbie

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    I was thinking the same thing. Great communication, and I'm also glad she included that "forcing me" line.
     
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  14. Xandroz

    Xandroz GBAtemp Regular

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    Any one with a 1.0.0 could sum up the situation for me because i got lost Honestly.

    What is our situation with puyo now
    we were supposed to get atmosphere before other firmware as we used the 1.0 exploit, but from my understanding it needs more work as michele is busy with atmosphere at the moment, and we will all get initially FG implementation untill further developments.
    so we are all getting it at the same time after the disclosure period.
    and from then further implmentations will take place.

    thanks again for keeping up with all the questions.
     
    Last edited by Xandroz, Apr 12, 2018
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  15. TheCyberQuake

    TheCyberQuake Certified Geek

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    Again I like to reiterate, we aren't blindly following RS. They've just given us plenty of reason to believe them, both with their communication and past work.
    Many people here are saying "they shouldn't talk about things until they are ready to release", but if that happened things would go silent and then people would ask "why haven't they said anything? Have they stopped development? Is the team disbanded?"
    I would rather have communication than not. Frankly most of those complaining about it are just being impatient.
    Like just chill. We are getting a bootrom exploit and cfw before the two year mark for the console, which is one of the fastest I've seen a console hacked to this extent.
     
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  16. TheCyberQuake

    TheCyberQuake Certified Geek

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    1.0.0 will require puyo for an initial install of the fake news exploit.
    You also may get access to atmosphere first, as well as you will likely have access to a pure-software F-G install when that comes.
     
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  17. Xandroz

    Xandroz GBAtemp Regular

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    my puyo has been in the customs for the past 10 days i dont know what they think its a hentai adult movie or what :D
     
  18. ktemkin

    ktemkin Member

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    If you have or are going to get the game anyway, you can. Those versions are pretty much interchangeable in the long-term. :)

    Yep-- and it's possible at some point that we'll allow you to install Fake News without Puyo using f-g/Atmosphère. The original plan was to release Atmosphère for 1.0.0 first while we tried to figure out how to deal with Fusée Gelée, but we actually wound up with a disclosure schedule that was faster than we'd thought. :)
     
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  19. Ronhero

    Ronhero Too Weird to Live, Too Rare to Die

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    Thanks for the info @ktemkin

    I guess for now i will sit on my 1.0 and 2.x and see when it is released. Once released I'll just weigh my options to update since it puts me in a more desirable place that i can always update to a software based cold boot solution
     
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  20. aut0mat3d

    aut0mat3d GBAtemp Regular

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    Thanks Kate for your Will and Time to give Infos and answer for our Questions, i really appreciate that! *thumbsup*
    @gbatemp Members involved here:
    Please mention that you are binding a essential ressource (Kates Time) with this thread.
    This is the Reason why i do my first post at #520. I am totally aware that there many many open questions and rumors - everyone who is interested in custom firmware holds its breath and going to get blue till Summer ;)

    So, please dont stress Kate too much ;) She's a real person with a real live and her free time and motivation are not endless ressources....

    Personally i am staying here @3.0 until CFW gets released - had to borrow my sons switch to play Mario wich i bought at release date ;)
     
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