Frame rates. Are we going backwards in gaming?

Discussion in 'General Gaming Discussion' started by Metoroid0, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Metoroid0
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    Metoroid0 GBAtemp Maniac

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    I just received my very first physical copy of the nintendo 3DS game "Sonic generations 3DS"​
    I was so happy do play portable 3D (not stereoscopic) Sonic game on Nintendo hand-held console :D
    Somehow i thought the game would run @60FPS since it's Nintendo console and since this is 22-nd century.​
    And in general, i don't remember the game on Nintendo (well there was Zelda wind waker, Twilight princess atc.) that ran @30FPS, all their games where Smooth, pleasure to eyes, 60FPS gameplay, especially newer games on Wii lets say :)
    And also SEGA always made, as i remember, smooth sonic games, that's ONE of the reason i enjoyed sonic games.​
    But whenever i came across 30FPS game i'm saying to my self (and also it is logical to me) that older generations of consoles can't handle intense graphics and 60FPS. Maybe thay can, but today consoles SURE CAN, IM SURE OF IT!​
    Technology of that time wasn't like today. Today's PC's and consoles can easily handle smooth 60FPS (PC's can even do/did much more) for better visual and gaming experience.​
    A agree that high frame-rate is not requirement for slow-paced games or for some people (but it's desirable for me), but when it comes to, let's say SONIC, which is Fast-paced game and even "worst" side scrolling, you can really see the difference between 30FPS & 60FPS! (i know I can...) heck, i can ALWAYS notice this shuttering and it bothers me, but if nothing can't be done than i make peace with it and enjoy the game itself...or try to enjoy. It's like driving a car uphill at 5-th gear.​
    BUT, why does it seems to me that Console games these days are running @30FPS.. i mean, shouldn't they run @60FPS, i mean technology today IS good enough to do that. Are developers lazy??​
    I recently saw Bayonetta YouTube video where they compare two SAME games​
    on different Consoles, PlayStation 3 vs XBOX-360​
    What's with that?​
    Is it REALLY that hard to make 60 FPS game? i mean is that something THAT complicated for experienced programmer? It's not like it's modeling, or programming the whole game or i don't know..whatever (not that i know, just using logic)?!​
    If someone would say something like "you can hardly notice the difference between 30fps & 60fps"​
    Here's something for you...​

    Oh and by the way, shuttering really messed up with my eyes,​
    especially if its side scrolling or fast -paced games in question.​
    Is there some FIX, cure, patch whatever for these games so people could enjoy 60fps game-play,​
    or do developers must make game from scratch so it can run Smooth as butter...60fps smoother.​
    Is it really THAT hard??? :teach:
     
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  2. GameWinner

    GameWinner Take your heart

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    Why is Bayonetta 30fps on PS3 while the 360 game is 60fps?
     
  3. dragonblood9999

    dragonblood9999 GBAtemp Maniac

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    it was most likely made for 360 then ported to ps3. thats probably why
     
  4. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    First 60fps may or may not be a audiophile type goal, if you want to get technical then http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/25/the_future_of_moving_images_the_eyes_have_it/ . It is not quite the same as video where much above 25fps is not detectable outside of certain scenarios and there is something to be said for having a buffer for matters of frame rate dip (60 fps to 40 may even go unnoticed but 30 to 10 will be seen). Hopefully motion blur sticks its head back in and we can all laugh at 60fps in the same way we all laugh about the lack of anti aliasing on the N64, though I do have to question the effects of CRT and RF leads/analogue transmission in this world.

    Similarly on the 3ds it may well be running at a faster rate, however if it is doubling up the frames rendered to present you a 3d image....

    Hard... possibly not so much but there is a tradeoff between what you can get and what it will cost you, equally not so many people are frame rate sensitive but most people are detail sensitive so if you skew it towards detail (and your artists have probably already had to make a tradeoff here) at the cost of framerate then they and your audience might like it more.
     
  5. pwsincd

    pwsincd Garage Flower

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  6. Metoroid0
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    Metoroid0 GBAtemp Maniac

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    It's a port. But my question is, why? Is it hard to make ported game run @60fps?
     
  7. WoJjTeK

    WoJjTeK GBAtemp Regular

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    Bayonetta was poorly ported to PS3 because PlatinumGames didn't know the hardware well, and paid someone to do it , and that's the result... Since then they're doing all on their own, and MGR:R runs perfectly on 60 FPS ( or so it seems ).
     
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  8. ilman

    ilman Gbatemp's Official Noise Eraser

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    Yes, it was back then, because the PS3's old SDK and complicated CPU made it hard for developers to write optimised code for the system.
    Of course, that problem is gone today, but we can still see many new PS3 games running at 30 FPS.
    That problem isn't related to programming, it's related to pushing as many polygons and high-res textures on the screen. (although having multiple entities on-screen can also slow down framerate)
    And since graphics have been improving and polygon counts have been rising, the PS3/360 have been struggling to keep up as they are old 2006 hardware. Especially at 60 FPS.
    Although I'm sure that the PS4/Xbone will make 60 FPS the norm.
     
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  9. pasc

    pasc GBATemps official GBA Freak

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    60 FPS on all Nintendo handheld games ?

    *checks Pokémon X with Stereocopic 3D turned on"
     
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  10. Arras

    Arras GBAtemp Guru

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    The PS3 was very tricky to program for, so that's probably why. In general though: more FPS means more power is needed for rendering. This means less power is available for cool post-processing effects, higher resolution and other OMG GRAFIX features. Obviously a better looking game is much easier to market than "well, it's 60FPS" so that's why you see a lot of 30FPS games. The same applies to resolution. Lower resolution means more power to add shaders and all that stuff, so it'll look better.
     
  11. Gahars

    Gahars Bakayaro Banzai

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    Pretty much. You have to output twice the amount of frames, which can be very taxing. It's not impossible to achieve, of course, but it's all about priorities.

    Most people (especially on consoles) don't really care about framerate; as long as the game isn't super choppy, they couldn't care less about the numbers. The average consumer wants prettier, shinier graphics first and foremost, so if a developer has to choose between visuals and framerate, the former's going to win out.

    If you want fast, smooth framerates, you'd best invest in a PC rig.
     
  12. LockeCole_101629

    LockeCole_101629 GBAtemp Regular

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    there's too much factor to accomplish 30 or more FPS on consoles, specially handheld consoles.
    I won't even ask something like " is it hard to make so? "

    even with PC, 60fps is quite luxury feature in most games.
     
  13. Metoroid0
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    Metoroid0 GBAtemp Maniac

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    It's not about me, i was just wondering. I d have really good PC that can output most games at high frame-rate.

    It's not about numbers, i don't know how much frames what game has, but i can tell it's not 60fps JUST by looking/playing a game.

    Yeah, i understand the logic behind that. As you said, developers want to attract people, but what about gamers who care about comfortable gaming experience?

    For me, i FIRST want smooth graphics than nice controls than good story-line and than the graphics.

    But yeah, i want to see some nice visuals, but are developers see just money or good gaming experience overall.
     
  14. Gahars

    Gahars Bakayaro Banzai

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    You're not the majority.

    Most people are more than comfortable with 30 FPS (again, especially on consoles and handhelds). Most people really couldn't tell you the difference between 30 and 60 FPS except in maybe the vaguest possible terms. If most of your customers don't even care, then that's not going to be a major focus.

    Focusing on visuals over framerate also makes sense from a marketing perspective. Good graphics are easy to sell, either in motion or in still frame; they immediately dazzle the eye. How do you sell a frame rate? You can't convey it in a screenshot, and most people won't notice the difference when it's in motion. Hell, I get a good chunk of the audience doesn't even know what a framerate is. You could take time to try to explain it to people, but that sounds like it would be a major headache, and that'd be time you could've spent advertising your game instead.

    At the end of the day, there's just no real incentive to place framerate above anything else.
     
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  15. kristianity77

    kristianity77 GBATemp old fogey

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    Like others mentioned. Whether a game is 30fps or 60fps isn't that big a deal. What is a deal, and what IS getting worse as this generation dies out is that devs are pushing everything out of consoles which is resulting in frame rate dips everywhere. 30fps which doesn't waiver is perfect (in most cases) on the eyes if its locked down. But every single game these days it seems starts out at 30, drops to the 20s, back up again and all over the place. This is what takes you out of the experience when playing. The releases coming out now like Assassins Creed 4, Battlefield 4 etc rarily hold down 30fps anywhere!

    To be honest as well, next gen doesn't really need to hit the 60fps barrier in most cases (bar games like COD and some racers and one on one fighters) It just needs a constant, uninterrupted 30fps at either 900p or 1080p and that will more than suffice for the consumer.
     
  16. Kouen Hasuki

    Kouen Hasuki Kouen the Cyber Husky

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    I cant really say more than most posters on this thread for the most part it really doesn't matter at all 30 or more and I am happy!
     
  17. Celice

    Celice GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    Heck, even their in house Fire Emblem chugs to a fault if you have 3D enabled during battles, especially if there are flying units involved.

    at least i have muh pc master race
     
  18. Clarky

    Clarky Don't you know who I think I am?

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    As far as I ever read it wasn't Platinum who ported Bayonetta to the ps3 but was one of Segas internal studios, hence why there is such a difference, but Platinum now a days insists it will handle all versions of there own games now
     
  19. mightymuffy

    mightymuffy fatbaldpieeater

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    Indeed, they handled the PS3 version of Vanquish and that turned out arguably better than on 360. Think they've even apologised since about PS3 Bayonetta...
    Still, I've got friends who played and enjoyed PS3 Bayonetta blissfully unaware how bad a version it was, which kinda makes you wonder just how important refresh rates are. Certainly, playing Forza 4 straight after Forza Horizon is a bit of an eye opener, but there's just as much of an eye opener the other way round when viewing screenshots of the 2 games side by side... BF4 has recently been reviewed: Eurogamer moaning about how the PS4 version runs on the equivalent of High settings mode on the PC version, when if the frame rate had been halved it could've quite easily run on Ultra (apparently). Personally I think I'd prefer the eye candy over the 60fps myself too.
     
  20. Zeliga

    Zeliga One step closer.

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    You wrote 22th century, wat!
    Btw I agree with you I have donkey kong: country returns 3D and its 28-30 FPS on my 3DS :C