FPS that really defined the genre, what do you think?
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PC: Doom Wolfenstein 3d
Multiplayer: Quake 2 (only game i know of that has multiplayer co-op) Counterstrike
Console: Goldeneye, Halo
RPG elements: Dues Ex, Tron 2.0
-BZ
Multiplayer: Quake 2 (only game i know of that has multiplayer co-op) Counterstrike
Console: Goldeneye, Halo
RPG elements: Dues Ex, Tron 2.0
-BZ
QUOTE said:
True, but System Shock 2 did introduce an RPG element to FPS, wouldn't you say?
Also, what about Heretic or Hexen, the fantasy FPS. When I played Oblivion, I know its' an RPG; it kept on reminding me of when I played Hexen all that time ago.
I suppose the definition of FPS is changing or adapting, look at Oblivion, System Shock 1 & 2, F.E.A.R(Scifi Horror) etc.
Look at Serious Sam 2(moreover than the first) or Farcry 1 with there vibrant graphical colours, each game defines gaming in some form or another.
Hillsy_ said:
Heretic did add an inventory system for the player and alternate weapon attacks, and Hexen added the idea of going back to old maps. But I'm betting if you asked a lot of people, their names would seem unfamiliar.
Just want to throw in a vote for Unreal Tournament and the multiplayer side of things. Mightn't have been the first, I'm only young so couldn't be sure, but it's a winner even today! (Instagib = Best invention evar)
Bit late to the party it seems but OK. I will stick with the stricter definition of FPS rather than stuff like shining in the darkness and rail shooters from a first person perspective. Overall the main thing I look for is co-op and ability to mod the game (designers are good but mod makers can push it over the top).
Way back when. I never played much doom but Wolf3d and duke nukem 3d (I also liked the 2d platformers) stand out. Many of the games that used the same (or at least the same to the untrained eye) engine also come into it.
Duke3d was the first time I really got into mods as well and it had a co-op mode.
Half life (any version) I have not really played (did not hold my interest) so nothing more than a passing mention. If someone however knows the wild west themed multiplayer mod (it had bots unlike the others) I am would like to know the name.
Deus ex. Most of what can be said has been said. None the less a great blending of shooter and RPG with a good story and cast.
Delta Force titles. I forget the numbers but multiplayer co-op was awesome, I will never forget the first time we organised two teams for sniper cover on a raid.
Star Wars dark forces series. Ignoring the first for a moment it is one of the few games I have played that combine melee and FPS gaming well.
A mention to unreal tournament as it is one of the few older games I will install for network play.
Arcade.
Silent scope. I know I said no rail shooters but this blurs the line a bit for me. One of the only arcade games I will seek out rather than the usual method of which one has the shiniest lights.
Console.
In all truth I never really played that many console FPS titles generally due to difficulty in modding them and the fact superior PC versions appeared.
Perfect Dark, goldeneye was good but perfect dark was a better multiplayer game (both arena and single player co-op). I did however try playing a while back and it was unplayable owing to framerate issues. That did not stop me having to cool my cheapo expansion pack with ice in a bag though back when.
Medal of Honor. I will join Hadrian in this, the AI was pretty good for the time and the . You can keep the sequels though.
Tom Clancy's titles. I have played many (this is console rather than PC) and co-op has been what defines it.
Halo. Give me a break, sure it was better than most of the console predecessors but not a patch on what was available at the time on PC. It might however be that I am bitter about a lack of co-op mode on the PC version.
Everything else was just a port of a PC game.
Recently:
Stalker (the sequel was good but it lost some of the desolate wasteland feel from the first game). Try upping the difficulty and using some of the mods. Makes for a good game and the desolate wasteland feel thing returns.
Far Cry 2. I will not say it defined the genre (I will probably forget it happened in a few years unlike the others on this list) but for me right here right now it embodies what I think an FPS game should be in terms of weapons, level layout, look and feel, AI and
People are talking about total conversion mods already and I must say I am very excited about the prospect.
Fallout 3. Not as good as stalker but up the difficult and mod a few things and you get a nice wasteland game. Again some of the upcoming mod ideas look awesome.
Coming up:
We are now getting to what I think FPS games should be like, PC games are now able to be stretched wide enough to encompass my field of vision (coupled with stuff like softTH: http://www.kegetys.net/SoftTH/ ), graphics have been good enough for quite some time and people are starting to produce AI of sufficient calibre, physics is getting fairly good (in terms of breaking things).
Borderlands. I have long toyed with the idea of procedural generation or at least adding some random elements to things (it is one of the reasons I learned to mod/hack things) and in fact it has been used to great effect way back (elite used an algorithm to generate the planets). It also appears to have co-op mode. Whether it will define the genre or merely mark a turning point I do not know.
Way back when. I never played much doom but Wolf3d and duke nukem 3d (I also liked the 2d platformers) stand out. Many of the games that used the same (or at least the same to the untrained eye) engine also come into it.
Duke3d was the first time I really got into mods as well and it had a co-op mode.
Half life (any version) I have not really played (did not hold my interest) so nothing more than a passing mention. If someone however knows the wild west themed multiplayer mod (it had bots unlike the others) I am would like to know the name.
Deus ex. Most of what can be said has been said. None the less a great blending of shooter and RPG with a good story and cast.
Delta Force titles. I forget the numbers but multiplayer co-op was awesome, I will never forget the first time we organised two teams for sniper cover on a raid.
Star Wars dark forces series. Ignoring the first for a moment it is one of the few games I have played that combine melee and FPS gaming well.
A mention to unreal tournament as it is one of the few older games I will install for network play.
Arcade.
Silent scope. I know I said no rail shooters but this blurs the line a bit for me. One of the only arcade games I will seek out rather than the usual method of which one has the shiniest lights.
Console.
In all truth I never really played that many console FPS titles generally due to difficulty in modding them and the fact superior PC versions appeared.
Perfect Dark, goldeneye was good but perfect dark was a better multiplayer game (both arena and single player co-op). I did however try playing a while back and it was unplayable owing to framerate issues. That did not stop me having to cool my cheapo expansion pack with ice in a bag though back when.
Medal of Honor. I will join Hadrian in this, the AI was pretty good for the time and the . You can keep the sequels though.
Tom Clancy's titles. I have played many (this is console rather than PC) and co-op has been what defines it.
Halo. Give me a break, sure it was better than most of the console predecessors but not a patch on what was available at the time on PC. It might however be that I am bitter about a lack of co-op mode on the PC version.
Everything else was just a port of a PC game.
Recently:
Stalker (the sequel was good but it lost some of the desolate wasteland feel from the first game). Try upping the difficulty and using some of the mods. Makes for a good game and the desolate wasteland feel thing returns.
Far Cry 2. I will not say it defined the genre (I will probably forget it happened in a few years unlike the others on this list) but for me right here right now it embodies what I think an FPS game should be in terms of weapons, level layout, look and feel, AI and
People are talking about total conversion mods already and I must say I am very excited about the prospect.
Fallout 3. Not as good as stalker but up the difficult and mod a few things and you get a nice wasteland game. Again some of the upcoming mod ideas look awesome.
Coming up:
We are now getting to what I think FPS games should be like, PC games are now able to be stretched wide enough to encompass my field of vision (coupled with stuff like softTH: http://www.kegetys.net/SoftTH/ ), graphics have been good enough for quite some time and people are starting to produce AI of sufficient calibre, physics is getting fairly good (in terms of breaking things).
Borderlands. I have long toyed with the idea of procedural generation or at least adding some random elements to things (it is one of the reasons I learned to mod/hack things) and in fact it has been used to great effect way back (elite used an algorithm to generate the planets). It also appears to have co-op mode. Whether it will define the genre or merely mark a turning point I do not know.
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Tribes 2 was a classic FPS. The new Tribes Vengeance isn't nearly as good of a multiplayer game, but it has a fun single-player mode.
Wolfenstein 3D, for the obvious reasons, and one less obvious. I spent $60 in long distance charges to connect to the Apogee BBS in order to download Wolfenstein 3D (and a few other classic Apogee games) back in the day when I saw it listed in an old issue of Computer Gaming Monthly. W3D redefined what gaming could be on PC, as well as raised the bar insanely high for shareware games in general. (for those that weren't using computers connectedly prior to 1994, a BBS - Bulletin Board Service - was a single computer you dialed up via modem that allowed you to download files, e-mail other people, etc... each of those systems would usually connect to other servers using the same software and transfer data, updating their databases, etc. so that people could communicate in what was effectively the precursor to e-mail and forums).
While I'm glad to see a mention to Tribes in general, the fact remains that most (nearly 90%) of all people who played Tribes 2 that had also played Tribes 1, went straight back to Tribes 1 after the fallout of the release of Tribes 2. It did everything it could to damage the system they had put into place to make the original great. (virtually destroyed the skiing system by making it easier, but slower, the graphics were too muddy and made things more difficult to see, the number of players, built in, was dropped from 32 to 16 - though this was fixed with mods, mine-discing was eliminated, etc... and then the bugs, OMG, the bugs)
For those that don't know. Tribes DEFIED the genre, as well as defined it. While other games were using the directional keys, Tribes is the first game (that I'm aware of) that used the WASD key system for play (EDIT - Quake is the first, just found it on Wikipedia). It also, to this day, (aside from half a dozen low quality and/or foreign - i.e. non-english MMOFPSs) to host such huge multiplayer games (up to 128 players simultaneously), on maps that spanned several square miles, that also had indoor to outdoor play (something quite common today, but was pioneered by Starsiege: Tribes). And here's the key - the 128 players WORKED... unlike most games that have some paltry multiplayer team based systems, Tribes was DESIGNED for team/squad based multiplayer CTF... While other games were trying to get more people to play Multiplayer, it DROPPED single player like a bad habit, and forced upon its users a learning curve second to none, but with a reward that was/is/ and may always be, the greatest reward one could ever feel. The knowledge, not by dent of congratulations, or by the false ego we boost ourselves with when we accidentally get something done right, but by our own sheer understanding of the quality of our abilities. You HAD to be good to play in the game, and it spawned some of the most beautiful, almost choreographed ballet-like battles to have ever been seen. People knew their place and played it so well that a 128 player game played out like synchronized swimming between two teams of 64 players. There is no beauty greater!
When, in quake, people accidentally shot a rocket and hit someone flying through the air, and everyone cheered at the coolness of that accidental hit, people in Tribes were flying through the air, throwing a mine at the enemy, then shooting something akin to a rocket at them, then the blast radius set off the mine which happened to be perfectly flying to explode and kill them in mid air... And this happened with such frequency as to rarely be congratulated. You *might* have been congratulated if you managed to time a 5 second mortar shot perfectly enough to hit someone AND explode at the exact same time, killing them. That's how good you had to be, and that's how good so many people got playing that game.
And that's another thing. Flying. EVERY character had jetpacks on that were so well designed that it felt as if all FPS's should have had them from the beginning. The ease of use of the jetpacks made each level, especially the largest levels, become sandboxes to play in. They were not small by any stretch of the imagination, but being able to move with such speed, made the entire experience one of the greatest in gaming I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I still have the game installed on my system 11 years after it was released.
NOW, don't get me wrong, Tribes 2 was an awesome game in its own right, and even Vengeance played better than most FPS's (despite sucking compared to previous iterations of the system), I still feel that Tribes 1 is probably one of the best games I've ever played, and the only game to have gotten me fully into FPS's in general. Without it, I wouldn't have gotten into games like Halo, Portal, Half-Life, Deus Ex, Left 4 Dead, or any of the other multitudes of good/great games that exist out there in the FPS genre.
To add to the greatness that is Tribes - while other non Quake and UT games of the time were simply paying huge royalties to use the respective engines, Tribes was built under its own engine which was, in some aspects, light years ahead of Quake and UT. The netcode was second to none, which inspired the great terms like, "HPB" (high ping bastard - I don't know how many people have ever heard of it - most have heard of the other side - the LPB, or Low Ping Bastard), where people with shoddy modem connections of 28.8Kbps or worse could still play and even dominate in many a multiplayer Tribes match (I know I was regularly on at around 26.4Kbps).
I'm also one of MANY who paid through the teeth for the only real upgrade to dial-up internet at the time, just to lower the ping and give ourselves a little bit more of an edge, and well, to just make the game feel more fluid and responsive - which was still far better than most other multiplayer FPS games. For me, I was paying around $350 a month for ISDN (the precursor to DSL), which still only provided 64k connections (or 128k if you used both ISDN telephone lines simultaneously). There were others who had T1 lines installed into their homes for this game alone.
Yes, we were, and are, obsessed
P.S. - as per Wikipedia
Game Firsts
Mods to the original game made Tribes one of the most innovative games for years to come. Most of the mods done to the game would be copied later on by other software titles. Some of the most memorable mods would give users items that were mimicked later by other software titles:
* Grav Gun- Made popular by Half Life 2 and thought of as revolutionary, yet was created in Tribes many years earlier
* Ability to build bases and place base items- A first for a 1st person shooter game- And still has not been implemented to the amount Tribes allows. You can deploy things like doors, wall, force fields, turrets, inventory stations, supply stations, sensors, missile launchers, turret control stations, teleporters, jails, amongst many other items.
* The SEX Mod had machine guns that launched self deploying laser turrets, allowing the user to deploy hundreds of automated turrets anywhere on the map, even while fighting
* The original Warzone mod would let the players build their base from scratch (building, turrets, and stations) and then let the players play with their custom bases.
* T-Mail- A serverside mail system which automatically gave connected players a MailBox/InBox/OutBox/SentBox/Contact List/SaveBox and many other options that popular e-mail systems have all within the games Score TAB Menu.
* Demo Drop- Feature that allowed the game to record your first person game play with an automated format type to save it, convert it, store it, watch through the Tribes gaming client, but moreso it made it to where you didn't need Fraps, or Gamecam or any third party screen capture to record your games. The feature also did not diminish fps or gameplay, making it VERY easy to run and perform on all systems.
Smef said:
While I'm glad to see a mention to Tribes in general, the fact remains that most (nearly 90%) of all people who played Tribes 2 that had also played Tribes 1, went straight back to Tribes 1 after the fallout of the release of Tribes 2. It did everything it could to damage the system they had put into place to make the original great. (virtually destroyed the skiing system by making it easier, but slower, the graphics were too muddy and made things more difficult to see, the number of players, built in, was dropped from 32 to 16 - though this was fixed with mods, mine-discing was eliminated, etc... and then the bugs, OMG, the bugs)
For those that don't know. Tribes DEFIED the genre, as well as defined it. While other games were using the directional keys, Tribes is the first game (that I'm aware of) that used the WASD key system for play (EDIT - Quake is the first, just found it on Wikipedia). It also, to this day, (aside from half a dozen low quality and/or foreign - i.e. non-english MMOFPSs) to host such huge multiplayer games (up to 128 players simultaneously), on maps that spanned several square miles, that also had indoor to outdoor play (something quite common today, but was pioneered by Starsiege: Tribes). And here's the key - the 128 players WORKED... unlike most games that have some paltry multiplayer team based systems, Tribes was DESIGNED for team/squad based multiplayer CTF... While other games were trying to get more people to play Multiplayer, it DROPPED single player like a bad habit, and forced upon its users a learning curve second to none, but with a reward that was/is/ and may always be, the greatest reward one could ever feel. The knowledge, not by dent of congratulations, or by the false ego we boost ourselves with when we accidentally get something done right, but by our own sheer understanding of the quality of our abilities. You HAD to be good to play in the game, and it spawned some of the most beautiful, almost choreographed ballet-like battles to have ever been seen. People knew their place and played it so well that a 128 player game played out like synchronized swimming between two teams of 64 players. There is no beauty greater!
When, in quake, people accidentally shot a rocket and hit someone flying through the air, and everyone cheered at the coolness of that accidental hit, people in Tribes were flying through the air, throwing a mine at the enemy, then shooting something akin to a rocket at them, then the blast radius set off the mine which happened to be perfectly flying to explode and kill them in mid air... And this happened with such frequency as to rarely be congratulated. You *might* have been congratulated if you managed to time a 5 second mortar shot perfectly enough to hit someone AND explode at the exact same time, killing them. That's how good you had to be, and that's how good so many people got playing that game.
And that's another thing. Flying. EVERY character had jetpacks on that were so well designed that it felt as if all FPS's should have had them from the beginning. The ease of use of the jetpacks made each level, especially the largest levels, become sandboxes to play in. They were not small by any stretch of the imagination, but being able to move with such speed, made the entire experience one of the greatest in gaming I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I still have the game installed on my system 11 years after it was released.
NOW, don't get me wrong, Tribes 2 was an awesome game in its own right, and even Vengeance played better than most FPS's (despite sucking compared to previous iterations of the system), I still feel that Tribes 1 is probably one of the best games I've ever played, and the only game to have gotten me fully into FPS's in general. Without it, I wouldn't have gotten into games like Halo, Portal, Half-Life, Deus Ex, Left 4 Dead, or any of the other multitudes of good/great games that exist out there in the FPS genre.
To add to the greatness that is Tribes - while other non Quake and UT games of the time were simply paying huge royalties to use the respective engines, Tribes was built under its own engine which was, in some aspects, light years ahead of Quake and UT. The netcode was second to none, which inspired the great terms like, "HPB" (high ping bastard - I don't know how many people have ever heard of it - most have heard of the other side - the LPB, or Low Ping Bastard), where people with shoddy modem connections of 28.8Kbps or worse could still play and even dominate in many a multiplayer Tribes match (I know I was regularly on at around 26.4Kbps).
I'm also one of MANY who paid through the teeth for the only real upgrade to dial-up internet at the time, just to lower the ping and give ourselves a little bit more of an edge, and well, to just make the game feel more fluid and responsive - which was still far better than most other multiplayer FPS games. For me, I was paying around $350 a month for ISDN (the precursor to DSL), which still only provided 64k connections (or 128k if you used both ISDN telephone lines simultaneously). There were others who had T1 lines installed into their homes for this game alone.
Yes, we were, and are, obsessed
P.S. - as per Wikipedia
Game Firsts
Mods to the original game made Tribes one of the most innovative games for years to come. Most of the mods done to the game would be copied later on by other software titles. Some of the most memorable mods would give users items that were mimicked later by other software titles:
* Grav Gun- Made popular by Half Life 2 and thought of as revolutionary, yet was created in Tribes many years earlier
* Ability to build bases and place base items- A first for a 1st person shooter game- And still has not been implemented to the amount Tribes allows. You can deploy things like doors, wall, force fields, turrets, inventory stations, supply stations, sensors, missile launchers, turret control stations, teleporters, jails, amongst many other items.
* The SEX Mod had machine guns that launched self deploying laser turrets, allowing the user to deploy hundreds of automated turrets anywhere on the map, even while fighting
* The original Warzone mod would let the players build their base from scratch (building, turrets, and stations) and then let the players play with their custom bases.
* T-Mail- A serverside mail system which automatically gave connected players a MailBox/InBox/OutBox/SentBox/Contact List/SaveBox and many other options that popular e-mail systems have all within the games Score TAB Menu.
* Demo Drop- Feature that allowed the game to record your first person game play with an automated format type to save it, convert it, store it, watch through the Tribes gaming client, but moreso it made it to where you didn't need Fraps, or Gamecam or any third party screen capture to record your games. The feature also did not diminish fps or gameplay, making it VERY easy to run and perform on all systems.
man, I always wanted to create a topic like this one but was to lazy to do so.
I say Counter strike (first): I think it kinda changed the FPS online way to play. CS is not all run and gun. It takes some strategy to carry out you mission and some sort of communication with your team because your dead if your not organized.
Far cry(one): I think this game should be in here because it told it's follow up sons that it's not just one path that you HAVE to take. You can go off the path, go some where also on the island or go to a high up place to snipe people and to carry you mission how every you want to. It could ether be sniping people from far away, or just heading in there shooting every thing, or even a tactical way and take then one by one silently.
Left 4 dead: I think this will give future games to make the game decide how good you are and not just let you keep it at one level and stay there.
Far cry 2: This gives the future games the ability to have a completely huge free rome environments.
I know these are some newer games but I hope these games can effect newer games in the future.
P.S: Dam you takieda, you got me in trouble by my mom, she saw the word SEX and freaked out. She can be such a B**** some times.
I say Counter strike (first): I think it kinda changed the FPS online way to play. CS is not all run and gun. It takes some strategy to carry out you mission and some sort of communication with your team because your dead if your not organized.
Far cry(one): I think this game should be in here because it told it's follow up sons that it's not just one path that you HAVE to take. You can go off the path, go some where also on the island or go to a high up place to snipe people and to carry you mission how every you want to. It could ether be sniping people from far away, or just heading in there shooting every thing, or even a tactical way and take then one by one silently.
Left 4 dead: I think this will give future games to make the game decide how good you are and not just let you keep it at one level and stay there.
Far cry 2: This gives the future games the ability to have a completely huge free rome environments.
I know these are some newer games but I hope these games can effect newer games in the future.
P.S: Dam you takieda, you got me in trouble by my mom, she saw the word SEX and freaked out. She can be such a B**** some times.
Ouch, I'm sorry man... that was posted directly from wikipedia though.Licardo7 said:I say Counter strike (first): I think it kinda changed the FPS online way to play. CS is not all run and gun. It takes some strategy to carry out you mission and some sort of communication with your team because your dead if your not organized.
Read my last post... Tribes defined this gamestyle, nothing before or since has had such an immense level of team based tactical warfare. ;-p
P.S: Dam you takieda, you got me in trouble by my mom, she saw the word SEX and freaked out. She can be such a B**** some times.QUOTE said:
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Such great comments!
I do agree some old FPS are overlooked:
Tribes
Medal of Honor
Marathon
Did any of those really incluenced the whole genre?, in a way some of those created sub generes inside the FPS universe!
I do agree some old FPS are overlooked:
Tribes
Medal of Honor
Marathon
Did any of those really incluenced the whole genre?, in a way some of those created sub generes inside the FPS universe!
VVoltz said:
I'll try to make this as short as possible. As I've never played the other two (sadly, I would LOVE to play some Marathon, but just don't have the time), Tribes is all I can really comment on in this case.
I do feel it influenced the entirety of the genre, greatly, as (though CTF was part of most FPS's) it brought Capture the Flag, and other Cooperative Team based strategy styles, to the forefront. Most people played Death match, or some variant before Tribes, and few games were really embracing Team play.
Secondly, it is also one of the first games to have open outdoor and indoor environments, and showing that that was capable on a very playable level has made it a near mandatory addition to a great deal of FPS games.
One other thing that it had a hand in - it's netcode... the netcode on Tribes 1, and surprisingly improved on Tribes 2, was so phenomenal for its time that no other game could claim such smooth play, even with lowly 28.8k inet connections. This created a need for improved netcode across the board for most other games, and most couldn't comply. However, id Software (I believe with Quake 3) managed to create a different system for networking that allows seemingly instantaneous response - almost exclusive of someone's ping (though if the ping was too high, it would destroy its effectivity entirely). While I applaud that new system, I can't help but feel that Tribes created the need for that in other games.
There is ONE area I wish it influenced more - jetpacks... dang I miss me some jetpackin' action... I really miss it. I mean I *REALLY REALLY* miss it. There was nothing so liberating as being able to fly around massive levels, without having to use cantankerous vehicles.
@takieda I will have to confess I only dabbled in tribes (demo discs and cobbling together what passed for internet in the UK circa 1999) from what you said I think you should have a look at Savage - Battle for Newerth:
http://www.s2games.com/savage/
It is free and there are almost always games going on, it is very much team or nothing and there are some decent building aspects.
http://www.s2games.com/savage/
It is free and there are almost always games going on, it is very much team or nothing and there are some decent building aspects.
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I think it's...Medal of Honor! My first FPS game. So much fun but I kept dying.
I also remember Small Soldiers which freaked me out a little bit (because of the music, not the game)
Both from PS1
I also remember Small Soldiers which freaked me out a little bit (because of the music, not the game)
Both from PS1
Oh, Medal of Honor games were sooo god for its time. Finshed both, could never finish the extra missions of Underground versus those mutant Nazis.R2DJ said:
Too bad the series went down after so many sequels, I'm glad they didn't come up with a Medal of Honor: Vietnam.
Also about Small Soldiers, I think that was a 3rd person shooter, wasn't it? I remember the game was sup par, I hated the fact you played on a different planet and not in Earth.
The one that "Defined" the genre? = DOOM, not Wolfenstein
Now there may have been more than added to it, or even "redefined" it, but DOOM is the granddaddy of them all.
I'll give props to the Medal of Honor series, for introducing along with Goldeneye, hit sensitive, anatomical reactions. It was pretty funny seeing those d*mn Nazis tossing back, or kicking, my grenade for the first time as well.
Now there may have been more than added to it, or even "redefined" it, but DOOM is the granddaddy of them all.
I'll give props to the Medal of Honor series, for introducing along with Goldeneye, hit sensitive, anatomical reactions. It was pretty funny seeing those d*mn Nazis tossing back, or kicking, my grenade for the first time as well.
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