Gaming FFXIII: what did(n't) you like about it?

[CompassNorth]

If you thought the story was confusing then you obviously don't play many RPGs (seriously, it's nothing compared to kingdom hearts)

I'm going to have to call BS on that one line. RPGs are known for being mostly story focused games, not complexed story games. The two are entirely different. FF13 is complicated for it's own good, lots of people felt this way, not just the ones who "don't play many RPGs"



FF13 as a whole can be summed up as "Toriyama's Waifu Simulator". Toriyama should have never been in charge, another Final Fantasy game by Yashinori Kitase would be amazing. The fact that the man hasn't done anything but been a producer for over 10 years is a shame. But then again Squeenix hasn't been aiming for quality as of late.

Why did this, of all things, need a bump?

Well, while we're all here...

Seven out of ten is a wonderful score for this game because seven is Lightning’s favorite number,” explained Toriyama

 

[Black-Ice]

I'm going to have to call BS on that one line. RPGs are motly story focused games, not complexed story games.

I can call BS on your line

RPG's have a long history of deep and complex storylines (especially JRPG's), not every RPG's story is simple.

 

[CompassNorth]

I can call BS on your line

RPG's have a long history of deep and complex storylines (especially JRPG's), not every RPG's story is simple.

Just because some games don't have have simple stories like the Dragon Quest series doesn't automatically mean it's complexed.

 

[Black-Ice]

Just because some games don't have have simple stories like the Dragon Quest series doesn't automatically mean it's complexed.

Now what you're doing is confusing "complex story" with "complex game"
Or maybe I am,

 

[CompassNorth]

Now what you're doing is confusing "complex story" with "complex game"
Or maybe I am,

I was talking about the story.

Like I said above Dragon Quest is a series known for it's simple story, Pokemon and Etrian Odyssey and tons of the early RPGs can be consired simple.

Other RPGs like (most) of the Final Fantasy series, the Tales series, most other RPG games these days have a more fleshed out approach to the game's narrative (I'm assuming this is what you meant by deep?) with (again lack of a better term) fleshed out characters, a more detailed storyline, these games usually give backstory/information on the world and NPCs that aren't essential to the game's main story focus.
This what now is considered normal. I wouldn't call games like this complicated. Their story goes at a moderate pace and the games never really give more information than they can understand.

And then you have complexed stuff like Kingdom Hearts, which if played separately can "normal" RPGs (storywise of course), but if you look at the series as a whole it's just one complicated mess.

 

[dimmidice]

the combat system was overly complicated, but at the same time incredibly boring.

way too linear

story was poorly explained, you're thrown into the world whereas normally you discover the world bit by bit.

no freedom.

I can call BS on your line

RPG's have a long history of deep and complex storylines (especially JRPG's), not every RPG's story is simple.

there's having complicated and confusing stories. then there's having confusing and complicated stories which aren't explained in a logical manner. FF-13 is the latter.

 

[Black-Ice]

there's having complicated and confusing stories. then there's having confusing and complicated stories which aren't explained in a logical manner. FF-13 is the latter.

What's "a logical manner" ?
I read all the text, watched the cutscenes and read the codex's. I understand the story completely
I don't think you had to apply any more concentration than you would to any decent RPG to understand things.
The game isnt at fault if you dont follow the story and the ways to access it.

 

[Gahars]

What's "a logical manner" ?
I read all the text, watched the cutscenes and read the codex's. I understand the story completely
I don't think you had to apply any more concentration than you would to any decent RPG to understand things.
The game isnt at fault if you dont follow the story and the ways to access it.

Just a side note, because I see this sort of argument revolving around lots of things, so I'll make my spiel here.

If you need to read the supplementary material for a story to be good, then it isn't a good story. You shouldn't have to go to the codex to understand what's happening, who's who, character motivations, how things are supposed to work, etc. That's all stuff a well told story presents naturally.

I'm all for supplementary stuff for fleshing out minute background information, but I hate it when writers use it as a crutch for their poor storytelling.

 

[Kalker3]

Just a side note, because I see this sort of argument revolving around lots of things, so I'll make spiel here.

If you need to read the supplementary material for a story to be good, then it isn't a good story. You shouldn't have to go to the codex to understand what's happening, who's who, character motivations, how things are supposed to work, etc. That's all stuff a well told story presents naturally.

I'm all for supplementary stuff for fleshing out minute background information, but I hate it when writers use it as a crutch for their poor storytelling.

Didn't Dark Souls do the same though?

 

[Foxi4]

Seriously, I'm stupid enough as it is, did you really need to make me watch that crap?

Yes. You had to know the truth.

I can call BS on your line RPG's have a long history of deep and complex storylines (especially JRPG's), not every RPG's story is simple.

JRPG stories are not deep or complex 9 out of 10 times. In fact, most aren't even good. Go play Planescape: Torment or something, you'll see a good story.

 

[Gahars]

Didn't Dark Souls do the same though?

From what I've heard, Dark Souls is supposed to use that for world building and background information, but I haven't played it so I couldn't say.

EDIT: I should probably clarify that there's a difference between information found and conveyed through exploration and information just buried in text. Depending on the game, the former can work well; the latter's just a cheat.

 

[Foxi4]

From what I've heard, Dark Souls is supposed to use that for world building and background information, but I haven't played it so I couldn't say.

Dark Souls presents you with everything you need to know about the game world before starting the game in a cut scene. In fact, I'd wager that it goes too much into the intricate details, but it builds the atmosphere that way. Everything else is covered by the initial dialogues. You know exactly who you are and your objective is clear, which is not the case with FFXIII.




Dark Souls gradually fleshes the narrative out wheras FFXIII throws you into one assuming that if you want to know what the hell is going on, you'll just read walls of text.

 

[Clydefrosch]

i felt happy when it was over... thats never a good sign

 

[emigre]

I can call BS on your line

RPG's have a long history of deep and complex storylines (especially JRPG's), not every RPG's story is simple.

JRPG story lines are usually terrible and I'm like King Weeaboo.

 

[Black-Ice]

You shouldn't have to go to the codex to understand what's happening, who's who, character motivations, how things are supposed to work, etc. That's all stuff a well told story presents naturally.

Ahh,
Fair point there, though the codex stuff was more backstory than main plot but yeah.

JRPG story lines are usually terrible and I'm like King Weeaboo.

Das just like....your opinion man
and i respect it.

Dark Souls presents you with everything you need to know about the game world before starting the game in a cut scene.

It can do that coz there isnt really much you need to know. Unless i played it wrong

 

[dimmidice]

What's "a logical manner" ?
I read all the text, watched the cutscenes and read the codex's. I understand the story completely
I don't think you had to apply any more concentration than you would to any decent RPG to understand things.
The game isnt at fault if you dont follow the story and the ways to access it.

usually in FF's (and most jprgs) you gradually discover the story as you go along the game. that's what keeps it interesting. you're discovering the world while playing. FF13 you got too much information dumped on you right at the start.
in the first thirty minutes of play you got all of the info about fal'cie, cieth, the government, the worlds, a lot of the background information about the characters.

it would've been a better game if the game had you start with a single character at the start, and gradually you picked up information about what's going on and meet up with more characters, and then you discover the characters background.

this is how it usually is.

think about what you learn while playing the last 85% of the game compared to what you learn in the first 15%. IMO you learn like 60% of the entire game in the first 15%.

 

[Black-Ice]

FF13 you got too much information dumped on you right at the start.

Dark Souls presents you with everything you need to know about the game world before starting the game in a cut scene.
which is not the case with FFXIII.

So...which is it people?

it would've been a better game if the game had you start with a single character at the start, and gradually you picked up information about what's going on and meet up with more characters, and then you discover the characters background.

this is how it usually is.

How it usually is? Or how you want it to be?

 

[Foxi4]

How it usually is? Or how you want it to be?

Correct me if I'm wrong, FFXIII dumps you into a scene with the main characters (maybe? We don't know who they are yet) in a train with a bunch of prisoners (maybe? It's not established at that point) who then fight some soldiers (for some reason?) to get off the train (why?) and free the people who are wearing the stupid glowing robes (who are they?). From the very first minute you have no f*cking clue what's going on, who are the characters, what's their motivation and who are they fighting. What you do know is that you can shoot massive armored mechs into submission using an assault rifle and pistols, which defeats the purpose of having massive mechs in the first place.

 

[dimmidice]

So...which is it people?

it's both. he said

Dark Souls presents you with everything you need to know about the game world before starting the game in a cut scene. In fact, I'd wager that it goes too much into the intricate details, but it builds the atmosphere that way. Everything else is covered by the initial dialogues. You know exactly who you are and your objective is clear, which is not the case with FFXIII.

you cutting bits out of his quote doesn't really bring his point accross.

he was saying in dark souls you know what to do right as you start, your goal is clear. in FF13 your goal is far from clear. which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
i don't understand why people are comparing dark souls to final fantasy though. completely different games.

How it usually is? Or how you want it to be?

it's how it usually is. go play FF's 1-12. it's the same in all of those.

Correct me if I'm wrong, FFXIII dumps you into a scene with the main characters (maybe? We don't know who they are yet) in a train with a bunch of prisoners (maybe? It's not established at that point) who then fight some soldiers (for some reason?)to get off the train (why?) and free the people who are wearing the stupid glowing robes (who are they?). From the very first minute you have no f*cking clue what's going on, who are the characters, what's their motivation and who are they fighting. What you do know is that you can shoot massive armored mechs into submission using an assault rifle and pistols, which defeats the purpose of having massive mechs in the first place.

that's the very start. in the first hour of gameplay then they dump onto you all the information about NORA, the fal'cie, sanctum, pulse, etc etc.

 

[Gahars]

So...which is it people?

Dark Souls presents you with everything you need to know about the game world before starting the game in a cut scene.

That's the key phrase right there, I think.

Think of Star Wars - the plot would be a mess if "A New Hope" dropped everything about the Empire, the rebellion, the force and Jedi in the first scene. Instead, it gives you everything you need to know to start off - there's an evil empire, a ragtag rebellion, and a princess in peril. That's just about it. Those other, important details are filled in later as the plot progresses and develops.

If you've never watched the Plinkett Star Wars reviews, I'd definitely recommend them - not only are they good on their own, but in the review for The Phantom Menace, he goes into detail about this topic and the need for viewpoint characters, something FF XIII was sorely lacking in. It's focused on movies, but it works for video games, too.