If this is your argument, why can't the universe be an uncaused cause?hamtotem said:If you look at everything around us its difficult to say that it all happened by chance alone. There has to be some uncaused cause that resulted in everything.
There is a reason that I say the uncaused cause is God. Let me explain. If something right now occurs or begins to exist, something must have caused that something to exist. For example, if a leaf blows in the wind, the wind is the cause of the result. Correct? At some point, the universe did not exist. If the universe is the uncaused cause, then the theory is invalid. God however, is not bound by time. He has and always will exist.Magmorph said:If this is your argument, why can't the universe be an uncaused cause?hamtotem said:If you look at everything around us its difficult to say that it all happened by chance alone. There has to be some uncaused cause that resulted in everything.
This guy's for real. I've heard it before. I never said I believe what he says but I understand why he says it.FEFL said:You guys are both joking right? This man is mocking God, not stating he exists because of bananas. The guy to the right of him is laughing. Plus, he said bananas are perfectly proportioned to our mouths...anything we are able to chew on is perfectly proportioned to our mouths, if this wasn't true we wouldn't be able to eat it!
Magmorph said:The only reason to debate anything is to push your beliefs on someone else. Your opinion is that it is pointless to debate about the existence of god. Are you not pushing that belief on someone else?
I find this to be completely true. Any time I've gotten into a religion vs atheist (or any white vs black one such as political party vs opposing party) argument it's always ended up with both sides believing the same thing they did beforehand. Despite this though, people will always feel the need to try to get others to see it the way they do.Guild McCommunist said:Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
So, people use these debates to tote how savvy they are. They'll give some big list of supporting reason with Thesaurus.com open in the other tab and make it all fancy-schmancy only so they can be praised by their comrades and championed as a big, booming voice of your debate. On top of that, the whole debate is simply a giant oil spill in a forest. One flame and the entire forest goes up in flames. That's why I try my best to stop these dumb little debates of mundane issues. The only way for one side to win this debate is to literally have the other side die in genocide. That may sound a little harsh and severe, but this is what always happens in a fight over religion. It's more than a way of thinking, it's a part of existence. In debates like this, you're not trying to erase the whiteboard of all the marker, you're trying to erase the whiteboard of all the white.
Does anyone care if there is a God? None of this would change anything. Pushing your non-religious beliefs onto someone else makes you just as bad as the other religion, and visa versa. The fact is what I believe personally is personal. It's not something that I'll push on someone else.
Ah, sorry. He's extremely good at sounding so ridiculous it sounds like he's mocking something.Guild McCommunist said:Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
So, people use these debates to tote how savvy they are. They'll give some big list of supporting reason with Thesaurus.com open in the other tab and make it all fancy-schmancy only so they can be praised by their comrades and championed as a big, booming voice of your debate. On top of that, the whole debate is simply a giant oil spill in a forest. One flame and the entire forest goes up in flames. That's why I try my best to stop these dumb little debates of mundane issues. The only way for one side to win this debate is to literally have the other side die in genocide. That may sound a little harsh and severe, but this is what always happens in a fight over religion. It's more than a way of thinking, it's a part of existence. In debates like this, you're not trying to erase the whiteboard of all the marker, you're trying to erase the whiteboard of all the white.
Does anyone care if there is a God? None of this would change anything. Pushing your non-religious beliefs onto someone else makes you just as bad as the other religion, and visa versa. The fact is what I believe personally is personal. It's not something that I'll push on someone else.
And for all we know there could be a god. It sounds insane, to believe that some giant power is ruling everything, but look at us now. Did our ancients think cities could be eliminated with nothing but a single bomb? Did our ancients think we could be flying through the air? Do you think our ancients would think we could communicate with someone from across the entire planet instantly? No, of course not.
So we don't need these topics at all. It's absolutely pointless.I agree with you. In the first couple of pages nobody really wanted this topic, yet somehow it grew very fast. The fastest I've ever seen a topic grow since I've been here (besides the news sections).
Like you and I said, it's impossible to prove either side, so these arguments are pointless. Any ideological argument/arguer is pointless, because anyone with a certain ideology cannot be swayed a different way because of their ideology.
Pragmatic arguments are different, but some are still pointless.
Theists vs. Atheists seems to be like Democrats vs. Republicans. Everything is so based off of personal opinion it's nearly impossible to move forward in the debate. Both sides are also too stubborn to listen to one another. They also sometimes feel the other is too stupid to understand anything else. It would probably be better for the forums if this topic was closed...
This guy's for real. I've heard it before. I never said I believe what he says but I understand why he says it.hamtotem said:QUOTE(FEFL @ Dec 22 2009, 10:17 AM) You guys are both joking right? This man is mocking God, not stating he exists because of bananas. The guy to the right of him is laughing. Plus, he said bananas are perfectly proportioned to our mouths...anything we are able to chew on is perfectly proportioned to our mouths, if this wasn't true we wouldn't be able to eat it!
He's talking about a theory called creative design. I think he's wrong, but the theory behind it is an old theory.FEFL said:Ah, sorry. He's extremely good at sounding so ridiculous it sounds like he's mocking something.hamtotem said:This guy's for real. I've heard it before. I never said I believe what he says but I understand why he says it.FEFL said:You guys are both joking right? This man is mocking God, not stating he exists because of bananas. The guy to the right of him is laughing. Plus, he said bananas are perfectly proportioned to our mouths...anything we are able to chew on is perfectly proportioned to our mouths, if this wasn't true we wouldn't be able to eat it!
What exactly is the difference? Pushing religious beliefs is obviously not a dead end. People are converted all of the time. It all depends on how strongly the person you are arguing with believes in something. Sure, some people are going to be stubborn and emotionally attached to their beliefs but that is to be expected with any debate.Guild McCommunist said:Magmorph said:The only reason to debate anything is to push your beliefs on someone else. Your opinion is that it is pointless to debate about the existence of god. Are you not pushing that belief on someone else?
There's a big difference here. You're pushing your beliefs on religion. I'm pushing my beliefs on the debate as an object. The world can't function without the pushing of beliefs. It's how the world is run. The difference is on what belief you're pushing on. Pushing your religious beliefs on someone is something that simply is no good and a dead end.
Guild McCommunist said:Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
So, people use these debates to tote how savvy they are. They'll give some big list of supporting reason with Thesaurus.com open in the other tab and make it all fancy-schmancy only so they can be praised by their comrades and championed as a big, booming voice of your debate. On top of that, the whole debate is simply a giant oil spill in a forest. One flame and the entire forest goes up in flames. That's why I try my best to stop these dumb little debates of mundane issues. The only way for one side to win this debate is to literally have the other side die in genocide. That may sound a little harsh and severe, but this is what always happens in a fight over religion. It's more than a way of thinking, it's a part of existence. In debates like this, you're not trying to erase the whiteboard of all the marker, you're trying to erase the whiteboard of all the white.
Does anyone care if there is a God? None of this would change anything. Pushing your non-religious beliefs onto someone else makes you just as bad as the other religion, and visa versa. The fact is what I believe personally is personal. It's not something that I'll push on someone else.
And for all we know there could be a god. It sounds insane, to believe that some giant power is ruling everything, but look at us now. Did our ancients think cities could be eliminated with nothing but a single bomb? Did our ancients think we could be flying through the air? Do you think our ancients would think we could communicate with someone from across the entire planet instantly? No, of course not.
So we don't need these topics at all. It's absolutely pointless.
I was in the same position as you but then my online friend showed me about Islam. Now I am a pretty firm believer in God.lastRegret said:Guild McCommunist said:Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
So, people use these debates to tote how savvy they are. They'll give some big list of supporting reason with Thesaurus.com open in the other tab and make it all fancy-schmancy only so they can be praised by their comrades and championed as a big, booming voice of your debate. On top of that, the whole debate is simply a giant oil spill in a forest. One flame and the entire forest goes up in flames. That's why I try my best to stop these dumb little debates of mundane issues. The only way for one side to win this debate is to literally have the other side die in genocide. That may sound a little harsh and severe, but this is what always happens in a fight over religion. It's more than a way of thinking, it's a part of existence. In debates like this, you're not trying to erase the whiteboard of all the marker, you're trying to erase the whiteboard of all the white.
Does anyone care if there is a God? None of this would change anything. Pushing your non-religious beliefs onto someone else makes you just as bad as the other religion, and visa versa. The fact is what I believe personally is personal. It's not something that I'll push on someone else.
And for all we know there could be a god. It sounds insane, to believe that some giant power is ruling everything, but look at us now. Did our ancients think cities could be eliminated with nothing but a single bomb? Did our ancients think we could be flying through the air? Do you think our ancients would think we could communicate with someone from across the entire planet instantly? No, of course not.
So we don't need these topics at all. It's absolutely pointless.
. I've actually went from die-hard supporter of God to extremely questioning his existence. I've almost been completely convinced there is no God by threads like this, but I have to side with you I just wanted to see reasons that contradict me and other's opinions.