Gaming e-fuses how are they legal?

dude1

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random shower thought:

e-fuses how are they legal?

i understand the idea behind them, its a physical hardware change that can be enacted via software and if a firmware checks for a specific amount of e-fuses to be there before it will install and will otherwise fail if some are blown.

what i dont understand is how its legal, for better or worse Nintendo, Microsoft etc. sold me hardware.
what gives them the legal right to physically damage it once I've taken ownership?

if this practice was applied to other things eg.a new appliance or even a software update to one, purposefully blew my house's fuse box, sure home depot or whoever may be happy but intentionally causing damage to someone elses property is a crime and there would be public outrage and probably criminal charges.

thoughts?
 

M7L7NK7

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You don't have to update, and it doesn't cause damage enough to make your product unusable.. just for the people who are doing things that they shouldn't be anyway
 

dude1

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You don't have to update, and it doesn't cause damage enough to make your product unusable.. just for the people who are doing things that they shouldn't be anyway

some 360 updates were mandatory, if i damage your house but not enough that its unlivable thats OK?

dont get me wrong i get the argument but for argument's sake property law shouldnt/doesnt? treat some of my property different than others

just saying all things being equal it doesnt matter if the fuses have no other purpose if there mine and its a mandatory update and on top of it no change log specifies that damage, you'd imagine thered be recourse
 
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tbb043

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Because Congress (technical illiterates for the most part) hasn't passed any laws against it. Things don't just become illegal, there has to be a law passed to do so, (or some activist judge acting outside of his legal authority under the constitution)
 

Uiaad

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At this point tho, @dude1 is claiming purposeful damage which could in theory be prosecuted in a court IF ( and it really is a big if ) he could prove that blowing these fuses were detrimental to his console. Which of course he can't as it's being used for its designed purpose.
 

Originality

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It’s like saying how dare they design candles such that they damage themselves in use. It’s like they want us to force us to buy more to keep my room lit up at night!

It’s a DRM component that does its job. If Ninty ever screwed up by making it actually stop working (or bricking your device) then they’d be forced to replace yours and everybody else’s devices. Until then... we continue on as normal.
 

kuwanger

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I await the day someone figures a way to exploit a shareable game level on a popular game that maliciously burns out all the e-fuses on your device. Not because I think that's a good thing, but I think there are jerks who would enjoy bricking hundreds of devices.
 
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Darth Meteos

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I await the day someone figures a way to exploit a shareable game level on a popular game that maliciously burns out all the e-fuses on your device. Not because I think that's a good thing, but I think there are jerks who would enjoy bricking hundreds of devices.
bookmarked in case this happens to you
 

kuwanger

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bookmarked in case this happens to you

Why? You don't think I'll be exceptional pissed off if this happens to me? That I won't find that the person sharing the level is responsible? We live in a world where rewritable BIOSs, NAND storage, etc can effectively brick many devices. There are ways to physically prevent such things as e-fuse burn outs or NAND storage rewrites. But the game companies who are pushing these DRM technologies don't seem inclined to enforce them and endanger their customers with their relatively cavalier behavior towards security. One shouldn't have to write so many "stability" updates to one's software in a professional environment.

I condemn malicious authors who would brick peoples hardware. I also condemn companies who create hardware that has the potential to be so easily bricked.
 

Darth Meteos

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Why? You don't think I'll be exceptional pissed off if this happens to me? That I won't find that the person sharing the level is responsible? We live in a world where rewritable BIOSs, NAND storage, etc can effectively brick many devices. There are ways to physically prevent such things as e-fuse burn outs or NAND storage rewrites. But the game companies who are pushing these DRM technologies don't seem inclined to enforce them and endanger their customers with their relatively cavalier behavior towards security. One shouldn't have to write so many "stability" updates to one's software in a professional environment.

I condemn malicious authors who would brick peoples hardware. I also condemn companies who create hardware that has the potential to be so easily bricked.
no need to write back, it's okay, i know you're against brick code, everyone is
there are just small, glorious moments when someone warns of something, then it happens to them
why, just a few days ago, i asked someone if they could read on a thread, while also quoting misinformation
such things are inevitable, but also hilarious
 
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kuwanger

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there are just small, glorious moments when someone warns of something, then it happens to them

Thankfully (more by happenstance than any sort of moral code) I don't have any devices that use eFuses, and I don't really have any particular plans to buy any devices that contain eFuses in the foreseeable future. I'm much more susceptible to all the other possible malware attacks (wiping the boot loader/BIOS), and that's bad enough.
 
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Darth Meteos

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Thankfully (more by happenstance than any sort of moral code) I don't have any devices that use eFuses, and I don't really have any particular plans to buy any devices that contain eFuses in the foreseeable future. I'm much more susceptible to all the other possible malware attacks (wiping the boot loader/BIOS), and that's bad enough.
i admire the hustle
 

tech3475

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The biggest reason is likely that no one has tried it in court.

The second biggest reason is likely because it's intended functionality and used as part of the DRM.

Comparing an e-fuse to a domestic fuse is flawed because their use case is different, I'm sure there would be an outcry if Nintendo accidentally bricked loads of consoles or the chargers blew the house fuse.

Thankfully (more by happenstance than any sort of moral code) I don't have any devices that use eFuses, and I don't really have any particular plans to buy any devices that contain eFuses in the foreseeable future. I'm much more susceptible to all the other possible malware attacks (wiping the boot loader/BIOS), and that's bad enough.

It's actually possible you do own one but don't realise it, I've seen them on various Android devices in some form such as the Nexus 6P, the Galaxy line or the Fire TV.
 

kuwanger

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It's actually possible you do own one but don't realise it, I've seen them on various Android devices in some form such as the Nexus 6P, the Galaxy line or the Fire TV.

While it's technically possible, I very much doubt it. I don't own any smart phone. I do own two android devices, both of them rather cheap ($30-$40 range), mostly no-name brands (one RCA tablet, one ugoos TV dongle). Maybe one of my $9 Nextthing C.H.I.P.s have an eFuse? The newest console I have is a Wii/3DS/Vita and maybe one of them has an eFuse?

I definitely would like to know if something I own does have an eFuse (or equivalent). But my limited research seems to indicate I don't.
 

916253

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I await the day someone figures a way to exploit a shareable game level on a popular game that maliciously burns out all the e-fuses on your device. Not because I think that's a good thing, but I think there are jerks who would enjoy bricking hundreds of devices.
There are much, much simpler ways to brick a console. Also, with f-g, burning all the update fuses doesn't matter anyways since that check can just be patched out.
 

kuwanger

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There are much, much simpler ways to brick a console. Also, with f-g, burning all the update fuses doesn't matter anyways since that check can just be patched out.

Ie, if you bypass the DRM the DRM doesn't matter. :) You're right in part that it shouldn't be any more work to brick a console by overwriting boot NAND (or whatever) than burning eFuses, but only one can be (arguably) legally recovered by the user*. Meanwhile, if sent back to the manufacturer to repair, one is much less costly to fix.

Once again proving that DRM doesn't stop the determined individual and creates more inconvenience to the user and the company than no DRM at all. *shrug*

* It's all a very legally grey are in the US because what qualifies as an "effective copy protection scheme"? Saving/restoring a NAND backup wouldn't seem to be relevant, but rewriting the firmware to bypass eFuses would probably qualify. I'm no lawyer though.
 

FAST6191

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First I should note that efuses also exist in more classical fuse functions, indeed that was their original purpose, and will isolate components when they fail or are not necessary for the operation and you can save a bit more power/generate less heat by wholesale removing it from the circuit. Similarly they also exist in identification functions (think burning a serial number) and while I don't know that I have seen it yet then batching as well (think all those nice software locked tools, oscilloscopes probably being a good jumping off point). Going back in history I would also look to the likes of write once memory, though I suppose it was born of a technical limitation more than a design requirement. Going back into nuts and bolts engineering then there are plenty of one time fasteners, ones mechanically designed to be so and for no other reason, and they go back a very long way.

Because Congress (technical illiterates for the most part) hasn't passed any laws against it. Things don't just become illegal, there has to be a law passed to do so, (or some activist judge acting outside of his legal authority under the constitution)
I would argue otherwise. There are held to be fundamental principles/tenets of law making and things you are allowed to do, or indeed not allowed to prevent others from doing. While theoretically most of those could be changed the political will is likely never going to be there to do that (and if it somehow is then something has gone very wrong). Said tenets can be fairly abstract so if you are arguing a case and can point at a more specific law then it is quite useful to do so.

Similarly while I am sure there are and have been judges that seek out things and attempt to do things, or indeed run places, then you may risk confusing the actual role of judges (which is to interpret the laws and weigh them against said fundamental principles, and possibly other rulings, aka case law, depending upon the system you are under).

Returning to the history thing from the opening paragraph then suicide/self destruct/tamper lockdown type things have existed for a great many years. 1989 being when Capcom did the whole suicide battery thing http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/ . Since that time we have had probably most of the fundamental rulings on tech outside of the very first software vs hardware stuff in the 50s and 60s.

With all that said I am not sure I see a path to making efuses as a one time DRM measure unlawful in and of themselves. Nintendo supposedly has a try hacky then no worky option in there and that might see more scrutiny than the 360 equivalent wherein you just get to flash the relevant NAND image back again and it all starts working.
If there is a path I imagine it would come more from right to repair* (which software locks can make unfeasible even if the hardware aspect is trivial) or environmental concerns (see various rulings in Europe for unlocking routers or mobile phones), and then the obvious counter move would be "well you can't replace these batteries because look at this fire", "we made it waterproof" or "look at this heat conducting epoxy".
*a concept right now which is on fairly shaky ground.

Maybe there would be a route along the lines of you sold be a non functional device/device which does not comply with stated functions, however "we ship the necessary updates on the disc/cart" would stop that fairly soon. The cases that resulted from Sony's removal of otherOS being where I might look here. You might have some kind of right to run homebrew but that says nothing about them having to give you or it continue to work with it in their operating setup.
The idea that they are damaging your device is almost a complete non starter from where I sit.
 

Ryccardo

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The cases that resulted from Sony's removal of otherOS being where I might look here.
I don't think legally you could argue it's damage as it is fulfilling its intended use
I would side with uiaad on this specific point: Switch, 360, etc (but also PS3/Vita/WiiU where their anti-downgrade system is resettable) were never advertised as downgradable, and I would wager their average owner (= "a reasonably informed purchaser") did not expect them to be so!

The PS3 Fat instead was explicitly marketed as (also) a general purpose PowerPC computer, and by installing 3.20+ on them, they become unfit for their advertised purpose due to, of all things, deliberate malice on part of the company that nominally made them!
Mix in the EU legal warranty, that makes sellers liable for the continued-performance of what they chose to sell, and suddenly it's not just 50 nerds with the hottest ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) computer in the world, making pressure against an electronics and media multinational that thought they would get away with it (like the all-plastic PS1 optical drives, the mechacon bugs in some PS2s, the thermal paste in PS3s...)

but rewriting the firmware to bypass eFuses would probably qualify.
Not sure on this, as anti-downgrade is not intrinsecally related to "bypassing copy protection" (though a version with less checks may help you towards that goal, it's not like you're actively removing the increased software verification checks of the newer version, just going to a version where the developers didn't put that in in the first place; else, it would make the whole "just don't update"/"go to low-volume, large-warehouse shop to buy an earlier manufactured one" affairs grey areas)

if this practice was applied to other things eg.a new appliance or even a software update to one, purposefully blew my house's fuse box, sure home depot or whoever may be happy but intentionally causing damage to someone elses property is a crime and there would be public outrage and probably criminal charges.
Most laptop batteries do indeed have a fuse that may be deliberately blown by the regulator, the claimed reason is to provide an emergency shutdown option should the mosfets be shorted (and therefore be unable to stop current flow the normal way) but "curiously" one of the possible causes is the same condition experienced if you remove the cells to replace them...

Again, these batteries are not advertised, nor expected by a probably significant amount of their buyers, to be recellable by a third party; but you can buy 3rd party batteries (often clones of originals without these pesky bits, and sometimes without even some non-pesky bits such as an actual temperature sensor) where the problem was already solved for you (usually in a country that did not care much about the ethical consequences of certain software designs in the first place :) )

Even if you wanted to really recell the one you have (to get 2x the capacity of low quality clones... at 4x the cost), you can buy replacement fuses (or just cheat) and you can clear the brick-bit, so the comparison isn't exactly the same!
 

tech3475

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While it's technically possible, I very much doubt it. I don't own any smart phone. I do own two android devices, both of them rather cheap ($30-$40 range), mostly no-name brands (one RCA tablet, one ugoos TV dongle). Maybe one of my $9 Nextthing C.H.I.P.s have an eFuse? The newest console I have is a Wii/3DS/Vita and maybe one of them has an eFuse?

I definitely would like to know if something I own does have an eFuse (or equivalent). But my limited research seems to indicate I don't.

Done some quick research with what you gave, the SoC the CHIP uses is apparently an AllWinner R8 which supposedly does support EFUSES but it's meant to be for the chip ID.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIP_(computer)#CHIP
https://www.scribd.com/document/339123081/Allwinner-R8-Datasheet-V1-2

Ultimately efuses are a tool, they have been used for perfectly legitimate purposes, IIRC the Shield TV used an EFUSE to set the boot device (emmc or HDD).
 

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