Dispute Decision: Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong & All Other Records Removed

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Just heard about this, holy crap, Billy must be absolutely fucking FURIOUS right now!

All his fault though. He cheated and wouldn't come clean. Id imagine that they have removed all his scores, not just the Long ones, because try were heavily associated with him. After this, ALL of his scores will be under the microscope.

Since he made money from this, I wonder if he could end up being sued by companies for fraud....?
 

Dungeonseeker

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Fuck Todd Rogers
Fuck Billy Mitchell

I would hope after all this controversy no site will ever entertain anything from these 2 again. It's bad enough cheating but these 2 made careers and a tonne of money of their cheating and lies, they basically defrauded anyone who ever paid them.

Winners don't do drugs and cheaters never prosper.
 

FAST6191

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What is Twin Galaxies and why should I care what they think? I am not necessarily being snarky either; everybody and their mother seems to want to set up groups to note things in game world and thus I am never sure what goes. Reading the thing is sounds more like they are sticklers for "original hardware" (it is easier I guess but I have very little patience for that crowd) and say nothing about scores themselves being falsified.
 
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What is Twin Galaxies and why should I care what they think? I am not necessarily being snarky either; everybody and their mother seems to want to set up groups to note things in game world and thus I am never sure what goes. Reading the thing is sounds more like they are sticklers for "original hardware" (it is easier I guess but I have very little patience for that crowd) and say nothing about scores themselves being falsified.
Twin Galaxies are basically THE original high score site. They used to do sponsors and stuff, I believe, with Billy and a few others.
So it's kind of, if you're the kind of person who goes for high scores as a carrear, you've probably used TG or just read it at some point.
 

Taleweaver

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So it's kind of, if you're the kind of person who goes for high scores as a carrear, you've probably used TG or just read it at some point.
I'm siding with @FAST6191 on this one, but your reply makes it clear why. I'm just not the kind of person who is in any way amazed by someone's high score. I'm sure there is more to e-sports to not being a pyramid scheme, but it'll be hard to find any non-gamer who even know who this guy (or that site) actually is.
 

tech3475

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I'm siding with @FAST6191 on this one, but your reply makes it clear why. I'm just not the kind of person who is in any way amazed by someone's high score. I'm sure there is more to e-sports to not being a pyramid scheme, but it'll be hard to find any non-gamer who even know who this guy (or that site) actually is.

I only found out about TG because of these scandals.
 

FAST6191

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but it'll be hard to find any non-gamer who even know who this guy (or that site) actually is.

That king of kong documentary from about 10 years ago got pretty popular and did a lot of the film festival circuit. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0923752/
To that end you might find some who at least know the name and some of the background.
 

Veho

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these 2 made careers and a tonne of money of their cheating and lies
[...]
Winners don't do drugs and cheaters never prosper.
But you said yourself those two prospered from cheating. Make up your mind :P
 

FAST6191

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Temporarily, look what's happening to them now because of their cheating. Cheaters will always be caught in the end, always.
Does it matter if it happens after you are dead?

Equally if he has indeed parleyed his win, or whatever it was, into a nice chunk of change as some seem to think (could not find a useful estimate of his net worth from a quick search) then he can happily fade into obscurity and never work another day in his life. Would be a win in my book.
 
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Does it matter if it happens after you are dead?

Equally if he has indeed parleyed his win, or whatever it was, into a nice chunk of change as some seem to think (could not find a useful estimate of his net worth from a quick search) then he can happily fade into obscurity and never work another day in his life. Would be a win in my book.
Because of the cheating, there's question on whether he can be done for fraud because he earned money from sponsorships and the like.


Basically, it could have much larger repercutions than just a few scores taken off the leader boards.
 

FAST6191

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Because of the cheating, there's question on whether he can be done for fraud because he earned money from sponsorships and the like.


Basically, it could have much larger repercutions than just a few scores taken off the leader boards.
How many people have been done for that over the years?

There have been plenty of people caught out and out cheating* in sports over the decades and other than some contracts have a delayed payout/continuous payout be cancelled I am not aware of many big cases. That said I am seeing the Lance Armstrong stuff getting pretty far along at this point, though also reading some of the arguments the defence is putting forward it is not an easy thing.

*and this is not necessarily out and out cheating, merely a quirk of rules from where I sit. If he has demonstrated an ability to get somewhere near that score on other unquestioned occasions it gets even harder.
 
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How many people have been done for that over the years?

There have been plenty of people caught out and out cheating* in sports over the decades and other than some contracts have a delayed payout/continuous payout be cancelled I am not aware of many big cases. That said I am seeing the Lance Armstrong stuff getting pretty far along at this point, though also reading some of the arguments the defence is putting forward it is not an easy thing.

*and this is not necessarily out and out cheating, merely a quirk of rules from where I sit. If he has demonstrated an ability to get somewhere near that score on other unquestioned occasions it gets even harder.
I don't know how the laws work, and honestly I don't know how cheating is dealt with in sports, as I don't follow any at all.
I would imagine some sort of fine? But that's kinda why people are thinking and wondering how far this will really go.
 

kuwanger

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The thing is, the whole point of TG is not merely the endorsements and the payouts for his record. In many ways, it becomes their identity. And even faking it (as in the hours and hours you have to play in public) is really, really hard. So, one effectively loses their identity and is known as a cheater. Sure, some people will still regard him highly because he wasn't a complete cheater. But then a lot of people didn't care about TG at all.

Basically it comes down to, if you set out to be conman, I don't think you'd care as long as you made enough money to make it worthwhile. If it did it because the actual recognition meant something to you, then this action by TG really destroys who you are. Really, if it wasn't worth it to get the fame, they wouldn't have worked so hard to fake it.
 

cracker

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Ha! I watched an update video a few weeks ago as to evidence of shadiness (even more than the VHS tape being counted despite the rules). I'm so glad he was dethroned and everyone now knows what a con he is.

@FAST6191 The original hardware bit isn't just nitpicking. There was shown to be timing issues in MAME that created an unfair advantage for him in at least one game he got a high score in.
 

FAST6191

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I don't know how the laws work, and honestly I don't know how cheating is dealt with in sports, as I don't follow any at all.
I would imagine some sort of fine? But that's kinda why people are thinking and wondering how far this will really go.
Fines are an interesting one, not least of all because many are voluntary after a fashion -- only the government and their sanctioned bodies* can levy ones you are compelled to pay, give or take contract law which is a different matter again.

*which can include some professional bodies but this gets very odd -- usually see it in medical and financial circles, technically you could not pay it but you would lose any accreditation that you have and thus may be walking away from a lot more, other times the professional body is a real government thing with actual powers.

One of the articles I skimmed for the last post actually covers some of the stuff involved
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/14/lance-armstrong-lawsuit-government-fraud

I don't really see a path for government fines here, there are no game playing professional bodies (see the earlier comment about everybody and their mother -- this is one of the problems with such a thing) and thus we are down to contract law and civil law with whatever sponsors or leagues the dude might have been involved in. As such contracts are extremely unlikely to be public at this point (if they are made public as part of a court case then that will likely be the only time we get to see such things) I have little to go on. Equally at this point as far as I am aware it is an internal investigation and that also plays into what might be able to be done, or what needs further investigation as laws on private investigations in computing are complicated.

I also have to stress again this is not necessarily cheating, to use words common in the sorts of contracts mentioned then it might well be a "deceptive or dishonest practice", possibly also "unsportsmanlike" but that is a whole other can of worms. Cheating most likely requires an active component, not sure where to look for this but gambling laws vis a vis things like card counting are probably not the worst start.

A place to watch might be https://www.youtube.com/user/ljfrench009/videos?disable_polymer=1 as that guy is a proper lawyer and covers a lot of these game related cases.

Ha! I watched an update video a few weeks ago as to evidence of shadiness (even more than the VHS tape being counted despite the rules). I'm so glad he was dethroned and everyone now knows what a con he is.

@FAST6191 The original hardware bit isn't just nitpicking. There was shown to be timing issues in MAME that created an unfair advantage for him in at least one game he got a high score in.
While I don't disagree that inaccurate emulation could make for some interesting twists I suppose it is more that I have spent too long laughing at the nonsense that various speedrunning communities get up to and it is spilling over into this.
 
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kuwanger

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I also have to stress again this is not necessarily cheating, to use words common in the sorts of contracts mentioned then it might well be a "deceptive or dishonest practice", possibly also "unsportsmanlike" but that is a whole other can of worms. Cheating most likely requires an active component, not sure where to look for this but gambling laws vis a vis things like card counting are probably not the worst start.

The argument that it's not cheating is hard because well, let's make an analogy. Let's imagine instead of doing the Tour de France you put up a sophisticated blue screen with a simulator exercise bike with orientation and resistance, fans, etc to mimic the course. Let's say it was even accurate enough that the equivalent of a TAS could replay both and it'd be equivalent. Would it still be cheating? In the end, I'd say yes precisely because one major component of Tour de France is following the rules, and the rules obviously including actually getting on a bike and pedaling a long and difficult course.

There's nothing that stopped Billy Mitchel from doing as many simulator/emulator runs as he wanted. But the rules clearly state to use real hardware, and he chose to post emulator results because that was easier for him than having to recreate the effort on real hardware or do it all on real hardware. Even presuming MAME was perfect (which the whole way he was caught proves its not), he still ignored the rules just so he could be on top. It might also be "deceptive or dishonest practice" and "unsportsmanlike". But, I still think it's cheating as well.
 

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